Mitigating Purging and Vomiting

[Voidmatrix]

Greetings.

Almost every time I smoalk changa, and often with just DMT, I feel a need to purge/vomit.

I seem to have a sensitive gut.

I'm beginning to think that this goes beyond releasing negative emotions (though maybe I have that much baggage to get out).

This is an aspect that creates a lot anxiety and increases my trepidation in these endeavors.

It's hard to focus on the experience. It even happens on very small amounts.

This isn't relegated to DMT. Even my mushroom microdose will constantly flip my stomach throughout the day (though it still improves my mood and mental state). For this I tend to keep ginger candies and ginger ale around.

My stomach can also flip around when I get nervous or anxious (such as when approaching changa or DMT).

I'm aware of trying to overcome nausea mentally, through breathing and mindfulness, but despite that, the "problem" seems to be getting worse.

Meditating before journeying is not consistent in alleviating this.

I'm not sure if this is related to having more monoamine oxidase in my system (potentially), if I produce more stomach acid as a result of "stressful" events (whether present or inclement), if this is just in my head (though there are many physical sensations), or what, but I'd like something to change.

There have been some things that I've tried in the past like the anti-nausea shot recommended by Cosmic Lion, and ginger beforehand, but these "remedies" are inconsistent.

What I plan on experimenting with:
-Different amounts of ingredients for anti-nausea shot
-Encapsulated lemon balm
-Lemon balm tea
-CBD
-ginger syrup
-a combination of the above

It's vexing because sometimes I just want to go for it, but it seems like I can't.

I've also noticed that after taking a hit or two of changa and entering the experience, if I open my eyes once it has started it is more difficult to prevent the purge. As if the extra sensory stimulation overwhelms and overloads me to a point that I have to vomit, regardless of how calm I am (as is the case in the last three times I've smoalked changa.

If there are any ideas on cause and remedies I would love to hear them.

Thank you.

One love

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I think it's partly psychological, and maybe this is causing an upregulation of your nausea-inducing 5-HT3 receptors. But this is just a vaguely informed guess, and I haven't a constructive suggestion beyond that, other than that I too had a very sensitive gut (albeit not necessarily for psychs - and certainly never for shrooms, plus I wasn't using harmala/DMT combos back then either so this seems maybe even less applicable... ) but aaaanyhow [cutting to the chase ] through some immense stroke of luck I got through all of this and now my gut's a whole lot more resilient.

One question - what exposure to household pets have you had through the years?

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think it's partly psychological, and maybe this is causing an upregulation of your nausea-inducing 5-HT3 receptors.

There's no doubt in my mind that this plays at least some role and I agree with you.

One question - what exposure to household pets have you had through the years?

I have pretty much always had at least one pet all my life. Presently, 2 dogs. Many of my friends have pets as well and I never hesitate to interact with them.

And thank you for the anecdote. Gives me some hope that this too will be overcome.

One love

 

[downwardsfromzero]

One recent insight I had was the role that canine-derived parasites may very well have played in various aspects of my decades-long dysfunctionality. I don't know if this is something you ought to consider but I thought I'd put it out there anyhow.

Feel free to disregard this, because above all else I'd rather you kept the joy intact that your furry friends impart unto you!

 

[Voidmatrix]

One recent insight I had was the role that canine-derived parasites may very well have played in various aspects of my decades-long dysfunctionality. I don't know if this is something you ought to consider but I thought I'd put it out there anyhow.

Feel free to disregard this, because above all else I'd rather you kept the joy intact that your furry friends impart unto you!

Given our connection and similarities, I'm glad you did mention it. I find it intriguing, and any parasite interaction between species is also very interesting to me. What made you come up with this thought.

For the moment, I'm looking at this focusing on stomach acid and anxiety. I deal with acid reflux issues mildly and have thrown up nothing but stomach acid when not at all sick before. And there's a connection between anxiety and stomach acid production (so potentially the upregulation due to excitation of 5-HT3, as you mentioned).

One love

 

[dragonrider]

Sometimes, mushrooms give me something that i can best describe as "weird feelings in the stomach". The weird thing is that fresh mushrooms do this to a greater degree than dried mushrooms.

I don't think that the chemical composition of fresh vs dried shrooms is responsible, but rather the taste of fresh shrooms. I always found that fresh shrooms can have this "lingering aroma" that very subtly can sort of keep hanging around in your throat and mouth for a while, constantly reminding you that you've ingested something slimey.

Cannabis has always been extremely helpfull for me, stopping these unpleasant sensations completely. But i must admit that these where always very active amounts of cannabis, wich is probably not what you're after when microdosing.

Maybe the harmala's you're taking also play a role. That would be easy to find out by simply not taking rue for a day.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Sometimes, mushrooms give me something that i can best describe as "weird feelings in the stomach". The weird thing is that fresh mushrooms do this to a greater degree than dried mushrooms.

I don't think that the chemical composition of fresh vs dried shrooms is responsible, but rather the taste of fresh shrooms. I always found that fresh shrooms can have this "lingering aroma" that very subtly can sort of keep hanging around in your throat and mouth for a while, constantly reminding you that you've ingested something slimey.

Cannabis has always been extremely helpfull for me, stopping these unpleasant sensations completely. But i must admit that these where always very active amounts of cannabis, wich is probably not what you're after when microdosing.

Maybe the harmala's you're taking also play a role. That would be easy to find out by simply not taking rue for a day.

Mushrooms usually mess my stomach up and I vomit more often than not with them.

And yes, cannabis helps a ton, even when on my microdose, but sometimes I don't want to be high (which is funny because I've smoked everyday for years). Maybe I could just try a little and see how it settles me. Smoke just enough to ease my stomach.

And I haven't drank any rue tea for a while. But with the tea alone I don't experience this, nor when I smoke harmalas, granted, I tend to smoke harmalas a with cannabis and the cannabis may be limiting any nausea that I would otherwise feel. So now I'll try harmalas all on their own and see what happens. I've been slacking a bit in exploring.

Thank you for the feedback.

One love

 

[Justsomedude]

I take 3-5 brugmansia seeds for anti nausea purposes, worked great for me so far.

 

[RoundAbout]

I've smoked everyday for years

Maybe there's a connection? I had a friend with CHS who was unable to recognize it until it was unavoidable (i.e. the episodes of nausea had other more immediate triggers, generally fairly mild), and it didn't resolve as quickly with abstinence as commonly reported despite him being skinny.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I take 3-5 brugmansia seeds for anti nausea purposes, worked great for me so far.

Very interesting. I tend to worry about toxicity so have yet to meander in that direction. What has your experience been like?

Maybe there's a connection? I had a friend with CHS who was unable to recognize it until it was unavoidable (i.e. the episodes of nausea had other more immediate triggers, generally fairly mild), and it didn't resolve as quickly with abstinence as commonly reported despite him being skinny.

Also very interesting. I've never heard of this. A quick search shows that this is rare and is usually accompanied with severe vomiting bouts, which I don't really have that bad of bouts of vomiting and they're usually precipitated by something else (which you did mention). All the same, thank you again for this. I intend on doing a little more research and keeping an eye on it.

One love

Edit: doing a little reading, I also don't have abdominal pains frequently. Just extra acid and stomach flippin in certain situations. This makes me lean more towards in being acid reflux related.

 

[Justsomedude]

I take 3-5 brugmansia seeds for anti nausea purposes, worked great for me so far.

Very interesting. I tend to worry about toxicity so have yet to meander in that direction. What has your experience been like?


One love

Edit: doing a little reading, I also don't have abdominal pains frequently. Just extra acid and stomach flippin in certain situations. This makes me lean more towards in being acid reflux related.

I've never had any issues personally, I don't feel it affected my trips qualitatively in any way beyond positively.

 

[Sabnock1990]

There's only two things i've come across that fully seems to help with the nausea/vomiting. 10 drops of Limonene in a capsule taken with the Rue/Harmalas, seems to block out all nausea/vomiting for me, while Ginger, Peppermint, Zofran and some other things didn't really do much at all for me.

The other thing is building up the Harmala reverse tolerance by regularly consuming the Rue/Harmalas (at least about 3 times a week) and after a few weeks the nausea/vomiting will go away, the bodyload/headspace will clean/clear up and the motor function impairment will go away, and even at heavy heavy dosages, things are manageable and feel rather medicinal.

So reverse tolerance, and/or Limonene, you can even use Limonene while you're building up the reverse tolerance, and after a few weeks can stop taking the Limonene and there'll still be no nausea/vomiting.

It may also help to get more accustomed to DMT as well, like even dosing low, just enough to get the Adrenergic effects going, as i believe at least for me, DMT's Adrenergic effects also contribute to nausea/vomiting, possibly.

The only other things i can think of would be to take something for gas/bloating if you have any issues with that, another thing can be constipation, which for me if i'm backed up that seems to increase my chances of me getting more nauseous or vomiting.

Other than that, try to minimize the tannins and plant gunk in plant-based teas, like for Mimosa or Acacia i prefer to freeze/thaw/filter the brews a few times and on the last freeze/thaw, i'll use a turkey baster or syringe to siphon/pull away the clean tea from the little bit at the bottom with the tannins and plant gunk, and the clean tea is for the most part free of any gunk and is very drinkable/palatable, especially if drunk while warm/hot and maybe with some sweetness added.

One final suggestion would be to maybe try sipping on the DMT-containing tea for 10 to 15 minutes, which will not only make it kick in more smoothly/gently and provide for a smoother, less intense come up, but may also not make you as nauseous as the DMT would if it hit's all at once.

And of course, anti-cholinergics can be useful to help with motion sickness and dizziness and such.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I've never had any issues personally, I don't feel it affected my trips qualitatively in any way beyond positively.

Wonderful. Thank you for giving me some motivation to look into this further. Who wouldn't want to ease nausea and have positively impacted trips

SS, you've been on fire lately. I love it.

There's only two things i've come across that fully seems to help with the nausea/vomiting. 10 drops of Limonene in a capsule taken with the Rue/Harmalas, seems to block out all nausea/vomiting for me, while Ginger, Peppermint, Zofran and some other things didn't really do much at all for me.

Thank you for this. How much rue are you dosing in this combination? And is this suppressing your nausea for oral consumption only? I really like this because it sounds like it suppresses nausea for a longer span of time than say ginger, where my experience has mainly been that ginger suppresses it the most while I'm actively taking it (such as a hard candy) and then keeps it suppressed for a little while after, but the nausea slowly comes back (instances of this occur most often on my mushroom microdose). Since I know that I sometimes have acid reflux issues, peppermint can sometimes make things worse (through relaxation of the lower esophageal sphincter), so doesn't really work for me either.

The other thing is building up the Harmala reverse tolerance by regularly consuming the Rue/Harmalas (at least about 3 times a week) and after a few weeks the nausea/vomiting will go away, the bodyload/headspace will clean/clear up and the motor function impairment will go away, and even at heavy heavy dosages, things are manageable and feel rather medicinal.

I had stopped drinking rue during a time that I wasn't experiencing some weird cognitive phenomenon and wasn't sure what may have been causing it. I think I'll take up the practice of nightly consumption again.

It may also help to get more accustomed to DMT as well, like even dosing low, just enough to get the Adrenergic effects going, as i believe at least for me, DMT's Adrenergic effects also contribute to nausea/vomiting, possibly.

So, I will now be adding more freebase and enhanced leaf to my utilization. I tend to just do changa. Easy to load a bowl and smoalk it and it's such a nice comedown . And to be fair, the last three times in the past week and a half have been after a 52-day break away from the space.

The only other things i can think of would be to take something for gas/bloating if you have any issues with that, another thing can be constipation, which for me if i'm backed up that seems to increase my chances of me getting more nauseous or vomiting.

I always pay a visit to the porcelain throne before journeying to make sure there's no trapped gas or anything. Other than that, I just deal with needing to burp to move small amounts of gas out, and that's mainly while on a microdose, on mushrooms before a DMT/changa experience, and during an experience, and when I am experiencing anxiety in certain ways (which is the cause of the before-DMT/changa burp need).

Other than that, try to minimize the tannins and plant gunk in plant-based teas, like for Mimosa or Acacia i prefer to freeze/thaw/filter the brews a few times and on the last freeze/thaw, i'll use a turkey baster or syringe to siphon/pull away the clean tea from the little bit at the bottom with the tannins and plant gunk, and the clean tea is for the most part free of any gunk and is very drinkable/palatable, especially if drunk while warm/hot and maybe with some sweetness added.

One final suggestion would be to maybe try sipping on the DMT-containing tea for 10 to 15 minutes, which will not only make it kick in more smoothly/gently and provide for a smoother, less intense come up, but may also not make you as nauseous as the DMT would if it hit's all at once.

Very good information. Thank you for this.

And of course, anti-cholinergics can be useful to help with motion sickness and dizziness and such.

Now I'm wondering if some of the precursor/metabolic factor cholinergic supplements I am taking might make this worse.

A lot of valuable info here. Will be trying many of these things out that have been shared throughout the thread. I'll have to wait a couple days because I smashed my finger at the gym and am not trying to deal with that kind of intensity at the moment :lol: (like when I had a fresh tattoo healing a decided to journey and it felt like I was getting the whole tattoo at once all over again). Thank you to everyone who has so far shared.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

A check-in:

Considering the nature of this discussion and that my initial decision was to forgo smoalking any DMT, I decided to smoke 40mg of harmala extract. I did something different from instances in the past (again, considering the nature of this discussion) and decided to not load my harmalas on top of cannabis (since cannabis helps alleviate nausea). I instead laid them on a small bed of marshmallow leaf. There was a noticeable difference from instance in which I use cannabis. There were waves of nausea that I experienced while getting ready to lay on my Shakti mat for meditation.

By the time I laid the nausea became much easier to manage, but was still there. I stayed in the meditative space/state for some time, and during that time I thought about DMT.

So...

Even though I said I wouldn't...

I took one small hit of changa.

It's always funny to me when the experience is so intense but I'm not seeing anything. I'm actually surprised I even saw the subtlety that I did. But it's nothing new. It was primarily in my body and headspace, being somatic and cognitive.

Anyway, back to the topic, the intensity of nausea re-initiated, but was still managed well. I never had to vomit, or in the couple of instances in which I thought I was I was able to hold it back (mind you, that wasn't the most difficult task because I was several hours fasted). It also lasted a while, but so did many lingering effects, which was anticipated considering the 40mg smoked 20 minutes beforehand.

I rode it out for a while. I was still in it 20 minutes later while closing the meditative space. As such, still encountering nausea.

I noticed that a pretty normal way in which I try to help manage it is by burping, flipping the gas over and out.

Presently assuming I am out of touch with harmalas. I haven't been smoking them as much as I'd like, and I also stopped drinking rue tea every night. So will work to get re-acclimated.

Another thing in my mind for consideration in the nature of and the role that my sensory processing sensitivity plays in all of this. It's not hard for me to get overwhelmed. As I've aged I feel like it's easier for me to become so in some regards. Perhaps this is one? And I just need to persevere to get through and passed it? Part of this issue is a result of having the sense of being overwhelmed?

Will try a small amount of enhanced leaf either tomorrow or Sunday, depending on how each day goes. Actually, it'll likely be Sunday after hot yoga. Or maybe both days. :twisted:

Thanks, all.



One love

 

[dragonrider]

I would be carefull with anticholinergics, as you have a history with diphenhydramine.

Maybe your excessive use of diphenhydramine in the past has over time lead to a permanently increased tolerance for various anti-emetics.

In that case, more anticholinergics would not be helpfull ofcourse.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I would be carefull with anticholinergics, as you have a history with diphenhydramine.

Maybe your excessive use of diphenhydramine in the past has over time lead to a permanently increased tolerance for various anti-emetics.

In that case, more anticholinergics would not be helpfull ofcourse.

I don't take anticholinergics anymore (unless there's something I'm unaware of). I'm pretty sure that's why cognitive function delayed for a while there.

One love

 

[dragonrider]

Yes, but with some substances, and i don't know if this could be true for anticholinergics as well, tolerance never fully returns to baseline after long periods of excessive use.

I know that this is the case with many people who've been addicted to NMDA-antagonists, and i believe that this also happens sometimes with people who've been taking opiates or opioïds excessively.
And apparently synthetic cannabinoïds can also cause a permanently increased tolerance for cannabinoïds in general.

But i know way to little about diphenhydramine to be able to tell if something like that could happen with this substance as well.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Yes, but with some substances, and i don't know if this could be true for anticholinergics as well, tolerance never fully returns to baseline after long periods of excessive use.

I know that this is the case with many people who've been addicted to NMDA-antagonists, and i believe that this also happens sometimes with people who've been taking opiates or opioïds excessively.
And apparently synthetic cannabinoïds can also cause a permanently increased tolerance for cannabinoïds in general.

But i know way to little about diphenhydramine to be able to tell if something like that could happen with this substance as well.

What would be some signs I should look for that would be indicative of this. When I was researching longterm effects of diphenhydramine, most things said that it any tolerance and lasting effects would dissipate completely.

One love

 

[dragonrider]

Oh, in that case you probably don't need to worry about it, luckily.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Oh, in that case you probably don't need to worry about it, luckily.

Luckily is right! As always, I appreciate your insights, DR [DR Dragonrider :lol:]

Another check-in

I decided to smoalk some enhanced leaf (which for some reason I rarely do), that is 1:1, and I loaded 25mg, so a 12mg dose of DMT (12mg in enhanced leaf is very different from 12mg vaped on the DVT V4 Crucible).

Some nauseated feelings that were extremely mild and nothing of concern. Will try 30-35mg of enhanced leaf tomorrow.

One love