Moclobemide - disappointing experiences with different psychedelics

[s0nicflash]

Hi Nexians,

I'd like to share my personal experience with Moclobemide as MAO-I over the last years, which were a little bit frustrating an kept me wondering if I missed anything?
As Moclobemide is available on prescription in Europe, I believe(d) it to be an interesting alternative to Harmala-alkaloids and others. As a pharmaceutic drug, dosage and purity are clear pros for this substance, especially as alternatives like Syrian rue and Caapi can cause nausea and might be hard to dose.

Over the last years I tried different combinations (without DMT, though!): Psilocybin, LSD and Mescaline with either 150mg or 300mg of Moclobemide.
Initially, I believed it to extend and strengthen the effect of the trips as it's supposed to enhance length by x1,5 and strength by x3.
But: It never worked. My last attempt were Psilocybin truffels (18gr) with 150mg Moclobemide, but the effect was not noticeable. After that I gave up.

Anyone with personal experience with this substance? Am I missing something? Concerning Mescaline I might explain the lacking enhancement by the selectivity for MAO-A, as Phenethylamins are metabloized via MAO-B - but Psilocybin and LSD?
I'm asking this question because I'm planning DMT- and 5MEO-extractions and am very interested in Vapohuasca, as I think oral MAO-I combined with dosing by vape seems the most promising way to navigate length and intensity of the journeys.

Curious to learn about any other experience

 

[Grasshoppers]

Hi Nexians,

I'd like to share my personal experience with Moclobemide as MAO-I over the last years, which were a little bit frustrating an kept me wondering if I missed anything?
As Moclobemide is available on prescription in Europe, I believe(d) it to be an interesting alternative to Harmala-alkaloids and others. As a pharmaceutic drug, dosage and purity are clear pros for this substance, especially as alternatives like Syrian rue and Caapi can cause nausea and might be hard to dose.

Over the last years I tried different combinations (without DMT, though!): Psilocybin, LSD and Mescaline with either 150mg or 300mg of Moclobemide.
Initially, I believed it to extend and strengthen the effect of the trips as it's supposed to enhance length by x1,5 and strength by x3.
But: It never worked. My last attempt were Psilocybin truffels (18gr) with 150mg Moclobemide, but the effect was not noticeable. After that I gave up.

Anyone with personal experience with this substance? Am I missing something? Concerning Mescaline I might explain the lacking enhancement by the selectivity for MAO-A, as Phenethylamins are metabloized via MAO-B - but Psilocybin and LSD?
I'm asking this question because I'm planning DMT- and 5MEO-extractions and am very interested in Vapohuasca, as I think oral MAO-I combined with dosing by vape seems the most promising way to navigate length and intensity of the journeys.

Curious to learn about any other experience

What's the brand name for moclobemide in Europe. I tried looking for it locally but to no avail. By the way harmala freebase extract worked very well for me with mescaline. Trip was extended. It did t get increase my h in strength but it gave mescaline even more energy. I couldn't sit still ...I cleaned the house to urn through that energy. Trip lasted around 15 hours. The come up was more intense and nauseating though.

Overall I liked that combination. Harmala nausea gets less and less with more often use. Keeping the dose minimal also helps by a lot with nausea.

 

[Varallo]

Hi sonicflash,

Unfortunately I have not been able to experiment with it myself. But over the years many members have been experimenting with moclobemide, there experiences can found in the search engine.

One that stood out to me was this one.

Here there be dragons...

Good morning people of the Nexus. Yesterday I attempted a pharma session, using moclobemide 300mg and freebase DMT at 50mg; this gave a light but enjoyable experience which left me feeling the need for pushing things a little further.Using bong hits of changa (caapi x11 with FB DMT in a 1 to 1...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Take care and let us know how things go.

 

[s0nicflash]

What's the brand name for moclobemide in Europe. I tried looking for it locally but to no avail. By the way harmala freebase extract worked very well for me with mescaline. Trip was extended. It did t get increase my h in strength but it gave mescaline even more energy. I couldn't sit still ...I cleaned the house to urn through that energy. Trip lasted around 15 hours. The come up was more intense and nauseating though.

Overall I liked that combination. Harmala nausea gets less and less with more often use. Keeping the dose minimal also helps by a lot with nausea.

Moclobemide is sold as "Moclobemid" in Germany, for instance! It's a second line anti-depressive, so not common but available to order within a day at any pharmacy.

My Mescaline tests lasted around 16h, but that's the usual duration for me also without MAO-I.

Moclobemide has a distinct 'feel' to it, there's more 'clarity and light in the room'. So even if the experience is not stronger or longer, it gives a nice taste to the journey.

 

[s0nicflash]

Hi sonicflash,

Unfortunately I have not been able to experiment with it myself. But over the years many members have been experimenting with moclobemide, there experiences can found in the search engine.

One that stood out to me was this one.

Here there be dragons...

Good morning people of the Nexus. Yesterday I attempted a pharma session, using moclobemide 300mg and freebase DMT at 50mg; this gave a light but enjoyable experience which left me feeling the need for pushing things a little further.Using bong hits of changa (caapi x11 with FB DMT in a 1 to 1...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Take care and let us know how things go.

I read about everything I could find, including that report. I'm a very, very careful guy, thanks for the info!
These descriptions especially made me curious about Moclobemide, but it seems to me as if there is something different in between Harmala-alkaloids and Moclobemide but I have no idea what that might be.

 

[Varallo]

I read about everything I could find, including that report. I'm a very, very careful guy, thanks for the info!
These descriptions especially made me curious about Moclobemide, but it seems to me as if there is something different in between Harmala-alkaloids and Moclobemide but I have no idea what that might be.

I think the main difference is that harmalas have a distinct effect on their own, and make the dmt experience into something else than just the dmt alone.

 

[s0nicflash]

I think the main difference is that harmalas have a distinct effect on their own, and make the dmt experience into something else than just the dmt alone.

Yes I guess so - both are known for having psychotropics effects of their own, and on-top there's an alkaloid-spectrum to it if you work with seeds or plain extract. But this still doesn't explain why I don't see effects in prolonged or strengthend effects in Mescaline or Psilocybin. Especially the latter left me guessing. I did at least 5-6 tests with Psilocybin over the last 4 years with Moclobemide and neither length (~4-5h) nor potency (3-6gr dried fruiting-bodies of cubensis) where especially impressing (!).
Maybe I'm just getting acquainted with my litlle friends...

 

[acacian]

I've not taken Moclobemide, but my understanding is that one of it's 'strengths' is that it has very little effect and is useful if wanting something a little more transperant to the DMT experience.. as opposed to something like Syrian Rue or Caapi which colour the experience in their own way. To me the point of Moclobemide would be to not experience ANY psychoactive effects from the MAOI and experience the tryptamine by itself. It sounds like a very useful tool in that respect.. like for wanting a spiritually un-diluted experience of a plant..

 

[Sabnock1990]

How's the timing situation been? Ime, just like when using Harmalas, you want to wait an hour between the Moclobemide and the DMT (or Psilocin, etc), whereas if you take DMT (or Psilocin, etc) too soon or too late you can miss the gut's MAO-A inhibition window since gut MAO-A is only inhibited transiently by Moclobemide and Harmalas (reversible and selective MAO-A inhibitors). So if you're not noticing a potentiation of dosage or lengthening of duration, i'd say play around with the timing if you haven't already. Other than that, dosage of Moclobemide is said to be possibly a bit weaker compared to Harmalas, and while ime 300mgs of Moclobemide seems to do fine, i could never settle on if 300mgs was all that was needed or if say 450mgs was better, idk, i haven't taken Moclobemide in awhile now especially to orally activate/potentiate something, but so long as you play around with the timing, and you get the Moclobemide dosage right then it will work, it's worked for me both for oral DMT (Mimosa, Acacia) activation as well as for Psilocin potentiation via mushrooms as well as 4-ACO-DMT.

 

[s0nicflash]

I've not taken Moclobemide, but my understanding is that one of it's 'strengths' is that it has very little effect and is useful if wanting something a little more transperant to the DMT experience.. as opposed to something like Syrian Rue or Caapi which colour the experience in their own way. To me the point of Moclobemide would be to not experience ANY psychoactive effects from the MAOI and experience the tryptamine by itself. It sounds like a very useful tool in that respect.. like for wanting a spiritually un-diluted experience of a plant..

I can fully agree to that. Moclobemide is very 'transparent'. As I mentioned earlier, it gives a 'shining' quality to the experience which I personally like a lot. Resembles much to the feel of acid (clear & bright).

 

[s0nicflash]

How's the timing situation been? Ime, just like when using Harmalas, you want to wait an hour between the Moclobemide and the DMT (or Psilocin, etc), whereas if you take DMT (or Psilocin, etc) too soon or too late you can miss the gut's MAO-A inhibition window since gut MAO-A is only inhibited transiently by Moclobemide and Harmalas (reversible and selective MAO-A inhibitors). So if you're not noticing a potentiation of dosage or lengthening of duration, i'd say play around with the timing if you haven't already. Other than that, dosage of Moclobemide is said to be possibly a bit weaker compared to Harmalas, and while ime 300mgs of Moclobemide seems to do fine, i could never settle on if 300mgs was all that was needed or if say 450mgs was better, idk, i haven't taken Moclobemide in awhile now especially to orally activate/potentiate something, but so long as you play around with the timing, and you get the Moclobemide dosage right then it will work, it's worked for me both for oral DMT (Mimosa, Acacia) activation as well as for Psilocin potentiation via mushrooms as well as 4-ACO-DMT.

I always had 30min. in between Moclobemide and other substances. When taking 300mg I split intake by again 30min. to avoid nausea. Blood half-life is 3h, so maybe this does effect Mescaline...? Good point. But Psilocybin...?
But encouraging to read you had good results with DMT, Psilocybin and 4-Aco-DMT.

What was your subjective experience concerning potentiation (would you agree to my estimates of lengthening x1,5 and strengthening by x3? The info I found varies a lot...Did you also vape DMT or only used Moclobemide for Pharmahuasca?

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah i noticed the usual duration for oral DMT (4 to 5 hours), and the extended total duration of 9 to 12 hours from Psilocin (whether using mushrooms or 4-ACO-DMT). In terms of effects, Moclobemide is definitely more transparent on the body, i feel the MAO-A inhibition but because it lacks the other effects of Harmalas it's pretty transparent and clean feeling so that one can experience just the Psychedelic portion, even though the MAO-A inhibition itself (likely through a rise in Noradrenaline) can definitely contribute to the clearheadedness and clarity of the overall experience, and haven't found Moclobemide to really "imprint" upon the experience outside of the MAO-A inhibition itself, so like when i take Mimosa or Acacia tea for example i get to experience the Mimosa or Acacia tea itself rather than having a more Aya-like experience when using Harmalas.

But yeah definitely space out the Moclobemide (or Harmalas) and the Psychedelic an hour apart. Ime splitting the MAO-A/I dose in half can work but doesn't work as well, and ime using Moclobemide as well as Harmalas, you want a full MAO-A inhibiting dosage to kick in all at once and fully/thoroughly inhibit gut MAO-A, and to have gut MAO-A fully inhibited when you consume the Psychedelic. So basically if you don't notice potentiation and/or lengthening of duration, you didn't catch the gut's MAO-A inhibition right, so make sure of Moclobemide dosage, and play around with the timing between the Moclobemide and the Psychedelic, which ime whether using Moclobemide or Harmalas i've found an hour apart to be best, i can even orally activate Tryptamine from Tryptophan by taking it an hour into gut MAO-A inhibition but if i take it at the same time as the MAO-A inhibitor or say 30 minutes in, the Tryptamine isn't properly orally activated and doesn't really work, so an hour in seems crucial, ime.

Also as far as LSD goes, iirc the consensus is still out on if MAO-A inhibition potentiates it or not, however Harmalas (as well as Moclobemide) inhibits CYP2D6 and CYP2D6 metabolizes LSD according to an study i read, and so LSD could be potentiated by CYP2D6 inhibitors which can potentiate not only the dosage but also lengthen the duration if you catch it right.

Haven't tried vaping/smoking DMT (except Changa) with Moclobemide, but a friend of mine did and it apparently worked really well lol.

 

[s0nicflash]

Yeah i noticed the usual duration for oral DMT (4 to 5 hours), and the extended total duration of 9 to 12 hours from Psilocin (whether using mushrooms or 4-ACO-DMT). In terms of effects, Moclobemide is definitely more transparent on the body, i feel the MAO-A inhibition but because it lacks the other effects of Harmalas it's pretty transparent and clean feeling so that one can experience just the Psychedelic portion, even though the MAO-A inhibition itself (likely through a rise in Noradrenaline) can definitely contribute to the clearheadedness and clarity of the overall experience, and haven't found Moclobemide to really "imprint" upon the experience outside of the MAO-A inhibition itself, so like when i take Mimosa or Acacia tea for example i get to experience the Mimosa or Acacia tea itself rather than having a more Aya-like experience when using Harmalas.

But yeah definitely space out the Moclobemide (or Harmalas) and the Psychedelic an hour apart. Ime splitting the MAO-A/I dose in half can work but doesn't work as well, and ime using Moclobemide as well as Harmalas, you want a full MAO-A inhibiting dosage to kick in all at once and fully/thoroughly inhibit gut MAO-A, and to have gut MAO-A fully inhibited when you consume the Psychedelic. So basically if you don't notice potentiation and/or lengthening of duration, you didn't catch the gut's MAO-A inhibition right, so make sure of Moclobemide dosage, and play around with the timing between the Moclobemide and the Psychedelic, which ime whether using Moclobemide or Harmalas i've found an hour apart to be best, i can even orally activate Tryptamine from Tryptophan by taking it an hour into gut MAO-A inhibition but if i take it at the same time as the MAO-A inhibitor or say 30 minutes in, the Tryptamine isn't properly orally activated and doesn't really work, so an hour in seems crucial, ime.

Also as far as LSD goes, iirc the consensus is still out on if MAO-A inhibition potentiates it or not, however Harmalas (as well as Moclobemide) inhibits CYP2D6 and CYP2D6 metabolizes LSD according to an study i read, and so LSD could be potentiated by CYP2D6 inhibitors which can potentiate not only the dosage but also lengthen the duration if you catch it right.

Haven't tried vaping/smoking DMT (except Changa) with Moclobemide, but a friend of mine did and it apparently worked really well lol.

As already mentioned, vaping with a MAO-I is the primary motivation for me. Although I have quite a bit of experience with all kinds of psychedelics, so far I never inhaled DMT and based on my experiences with 5MEO-inhalation this ROI is not my primary target (don't get me wrong here - i love vaping 5MEO and think it's very healing). I'll defenitely try it and the rollercoster ride is fun for shure, but my concern is spiritual work and breakthrough inhalation skips the come-up and -down which (at least to me) is absolutely crucial for any 'personal' work (bringing your subjective stuff into the experience and taking something useful back home).
I'm especially intrigued by the potential option to really navigate the journey by re-vaping - it's probably the closest you get to i.v. DMT with a perfusor.

But I'll take your advice and increase the intervall to 1h to be safe. And also I'll start testing Harmala-Cl.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah even if vaping/smoking DMT though, you want the Moclobemide or Harmalas to be more fully in the system first, and ime/from what i've read, when vaping/smoking DMT on oral MAO-A inhibition, an hour to two hours in is best, although it seems an hour in is likely best in any case. But, if you take the Moclobemide, give it a couple hours or so, and then smoke the DMT, oh it'll definitely work lol, and by that time brain and liver MAO-A will also be thoroughly inhibited and should potentiate and elongate the smoked DMT. Edit - though i'd like to add that ime i find smoked Harmalas to extend the duration of smoked DMT more than oral Harmalas, i do feel like oral Harmalas can help to extend things a little bit at least for me i notice smoked Harmalas doing more in regards to the duration while with oral Harmalas smoked DMT still seems a bit short, could just be me though but i usually just go for Changa (with or without oral Harmalas, or Moclobemide) because of that.

Now, when it comes to 5-MEO, i don't really have any experience with 5-MEO, only a small test dose (with and without Harmalas), however 5-MEO is generally advised against when it comes to combining it with MAO-A inhibition, especially Harmalas, as the combination has reportedly caused death though i'm not sure if that was from smoked 5-MEO or oral 5-MEO but iirc it was oral 5-MEO. The point is though that 5-MEO not only has some possible monoamine reuptake inhibitive properties which may not mix so well with the MAO-A inhibition, but 5-MEO is metabolized by CYP2D6 which again Harmalas (and Moclobemide) inhibit and as such they would significantly/very strongly potentiate the 5-MEO, so while the combination is generally advised against, i will say if it were to be attempted i would make sure to take the minimum effective dosage of 5-MEO, and would start out very, very low, likely somewhere in the microgram range, because with both of 5-MEO's metabolic routes (MAO-A and CYP2D6) being inhibited you're looking at some mighty potentiation of the 5-MEO so it's best to play it safe. With that said, when i had tried the small test dose of 5-MEO one time, i did smoke some Harmalas shortly afterwards and then hit the 5-MEO pipe to see if there was any left and surprisingly there was a little left which certainly made a difference, however i didn't really notice any negatives from that, so it may be doable (at least with smoked Harmalas), but still i would be very cautious with the 5-MEO and MAOI combination, which isn't to say it can't be done, i imagine it could probably be done in a safe way, but i think regular ol' DMT gets the job done fine and seems much safer in comparison.

 

[Sabnock1990]

For me personally though i much prefer the oral route with things, smoking is nice and has it's benefits as well, but for one smoked stuff is more "heady" whereas orally is more full bodied, and plus i like the full shebang and full duration, i much prefer to dive in for a few hours than to dive in for half an hour or so, which i mean i like the shorter duration and smoked route too and it's better for certain circumstances, but if i can i try to shoot for the oral route because it's way more beneficial ime.

 

[neurobloom]

Likewise I don't have experience with synthetic 5-meo-dmt with maoi but I smoked extract of 5m strain of phalaris aquatica in a joint (a light dose) 30 mins after drinking 4g harmala tea. The experience was definitely stronger and the light dose felt like a good dose slightly above average. The potentiation was mostly physical but the mentally the experience was actually smoother and extended. It gave me less anxiety at the peak. I loved the smoother lunch but didn't like the increased heart rate from this combination.

But since this was a phalaris crude chloroform the extract I can't rule out other actives in the extract playing a role in this.

 

[s0nicflash]

I agree with the 'headiness' of inhaled substances and also prefer the physicality of oral ROI (really digesting the medicine).
I know the claims against 5MEO with MAOI, but am a bit sceptical (whereas nobody doubts the potential fatal outcomes of iboga and still it is being used without cardiac monitoring - myself included) Ralph Metzner didn't have any issues with his jaguar medicine...

 

[s0nicflash]

I just re-read Metzners statements and noticed that he did not mention the use of any MAO-I in his book "toad & jaguar", but rather preferred intranasal application. But I thought I read reports of him on oral Harmalas followed by oral 5MEO, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

Depending on how your moclobemide pills are pharmokinetically designed, you might want to try crushing them and dissolving them or such...? Remember the technology of the western pill as a vehicle for medication delivery is not designed for tripping, it's designed for continuous use with stable release and stable effects.

Also Moclobemide is probably not permeating/saturating your body in only one dose via the pharmacological pills, nor accessing its highest inhibition (I think around 75% for MAO-A but upwards 85% or 90% for saturated users). After consecutive days of administration it will saturate your body and become not only stronger but more comprehensively/systemically present. Also it's good to learn about the metabolites. Moclobemide should be relatively active for about 12-18 hours with its reversible MAO-A inhibition. This is mostly all pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics to keep in mind. You are not using a liquid brew which has dissolved harmalas in the incredibly fast absorbing medium of water (15min!!). It's a multi layered pill-vehicle with various barriers to pace all the goodness etc etc

unce upone a thyme, I tried a 1g Mushrooms chocolate piece and I was a little Moclobemide saturated from previous days, but had also had moclobemide about 4 hours prior or so to the mushroom chocolate and the 1gram hit me way stronger than expected. way stronger ~ I was like "I think I'm tripping" and I had to sit down. I was beaming like a crazy person.

Btw I am generally speaking a hooligan with no professional background in these matters and have not fact checked this. I'm an extreme novice myself to plant medicinas. These are only thoughts I thought might inspire some thought-provoking avenues of research, which I thought were not really discussed. If you already took these angles into consideration, then great!! haha.
in any case,

best wishes
Mush
LOVE
Love
love
...


@Sabnock1990 your harmala stuff has been very interesting for me to read through on your profile! thank you so much!!!

 

[Transform]

Safety notes:

Moclobemide has fewer interactions than irreversible MAOIs. Cimetidine however, causes a significant rise in moclobemide levels and therefore if the combination is used, lower doses of moclobemide have been recommended.[70] There is little increase in the effects of alcohol when combined with moclobemide[70] and, in fact, moclobemide causes a reduction in alcohol-related impairments.[59] Moclobemide also interacts with pethidine/meperidine,[71] and dextropropoxyphene.[58] Ephedrine in combination with moclobemide increases the risk of cardiovascular adverse effects.[72] Moclobemide is also likely to interact with warfarin.[73]The combination of moclobemide with prescription or over the counter sympathomimetic drugs is not recommended due to the potential of significant drug interactions.[74]

Serotonin syndrome has been reported when moclobemide has been taken in combination with other serotonin enhancing drugs; however, due to moclobemide's reversible MAO inhibition, serotonin syndrome is significantly less likely to occur with moclobemide than with older irreversible MAOIs.[11][75][76] Serotonin syndrome has been reported when trazodone was abruptly replaced with moclobemide.[77] Taking at the same time or starting moclobemide too soon after discontinuing clomipramine or serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as SSRIs may result in the development of a serotonin syndrome.[58][78] SNRIs such as venlafaxine in combination with moclobemide have also been associated with serotonin syndrome.[79] Cimetidine causes a doubling of the blood plasma levels of moclobemide.[9] Blood plasma levels of trimipramine and maprotiline and possibly other tricyclic antidepressants increase when used in combination with moclobemide and may require dosage adjustments if the combination is used for treatment resistant depression.[80] The elimination of zolmitriptan is reduced by moclobemide and if the combination is used, a dosage reduction of zolmitriptan is recommended.[81] Moclobemide reduces the metabolism of dextromethorphan.[82] Moclobemide may decrease metabolism of diazepam, omeprazole, proguanil, propranolol and others due to inhibition of CYP2C19.

Eine Kombination mit Pethidin, Selegilin oder Dextromethorphan soll nicht erfolgen. Die Kombination mit Dextromethorphan kann zu schweren Störungen des Nervensystems führen. Bei Kombination mit serotonerg wirkenden Pharmaka kann in Einzelfällen Hyperthermie, Verwirrtheit, Hyperreflexie oder Myoklonie auftreten. Da Cimetidin die Metabolisierung von Moclobemid verzögert und so seine Wirkung verstärkt, ist bei gleichzeitiger Anwendung eine Dosisreduktion von Moclobemid auf 30–50 % erforderlich.
[A combination with pethidine, selegiline or dextromethorphan should not be used. The combination with dextromethorphan can lead to severe disorders of the nervous system. When combined with serotonergic drugs, hyperthermia, confusion, hyperreflexia or myoclonia may occur in individual cases. Because cimetidine delays the metabolism of moclobemide and thus enhances its effect, a dose reduction of moclobemide to 30-50% is required when used concomitantly.]