Most Potent Trichocereus

[oneistheall]

Okay, this is probably the most asked question when it comes to Trichos.
As many might know there are a few factors that play an important role in potency / mescaline concentration of these cacti.But the main factor is the genetic legacy. I consider very potent anything from 1.0 to 2.0% mescaline dry weight.I am not obsessed in finding the super potent clone because there is a qualitative factor also (alkaloid mix and synergies) and physical factors like biomass production/growing speed.Other important factors worth mentioning are the feeding schedule and Sun exposure (potency has to come from an energy source...).But I understand that we live in a culture where the quest for MORE by the masses is almost blinding to observe beyond….There are incredible potent cacti out there like the Pachanoi Matucana that has been recorded in more than once to have 5% mescaline, but… simply not available.And who knows how those specimens reached that %, chosen clones propagated for centuries from father to son?
When it comes to grow from seed or to buy a cutting I believe that the best bet is to go for the named plants, they have a name for one reason and private collectors have been crossing and propagating them because?
There are dozens more but i will list only a few, grouped simply : Pachanoi, Bridgesii and Peruvianus

Good genetics+good feeding+lots of sun = Alkaloid production.
I am a detractor of the stress theory, but cuttings might be stronger after a dry winter.

KK339.Aca: Chan Chan, Ecuadorian Pachanoi…
Huancabamba.Aca: Kimnach, Short Spine Peruvianus, Wild Pachanoi…
Super Pedro.Aca: Long Spine Scop, Cordobensis, Lance… A Scop. or a Scop/Pach. cross?
Juul's Giant

Psycho0.A Brid. or a Brid./Pach cross
SS02.Sacred Succulents California.
Achuma.Sacred Succulents California.
Lumberjack.A Brid. Peruv cross?

Icaros DNA.Wild Matucana.
SS01.Sacred Succulents California.
Serra Blue.
Macro.
Vilidus.

 

[ipumaestro]

sacred succulents is a wonderful ethnobotany company

 

[DeDao]

Yea but their website is so confusing and inconvenient.

 

[rudder]

Not as confusing as the original post of this thread!

So.....what's the most potent? I'd say Trichocereus validus

 

[oneistheall]

Not as confusing as the original post of this thread!

So.....what's the most potent? I'd say Trichocereus validus

welcome to the club, tricho taxonomies and potency is confusing…


What I meant is that besides the Matucana Pachanoi (which are plants probably propagated for centuries) there is not such thing as the " MORE" concept .There are individuals that with the right genetics and conditions will produce mescaline.I know that we were toght to define, to name and to put a number to things.We live in a n illusion of control...But maybe Nature does not work like that and there are other aspects to take in account by the initiated.

 

[DeDao]

I heard that Bridgesii var. Monstrose. Anyone heard that?

 

[BecometheOther]

Those who speak dont know, and those who know dont speak :thumb_up:

 

[ipumaestro]

I heard that Bridgesii var. Monstrose. Anyone heard that?

for thos of us who dont live in south america, trichocereus genetics are relatively limited. From this limited selection its become a well supported theory that T bridgesii var monstrosse is on average more potent than other clones, including its non monstrosse counter part (t bridgesii) which is commonly more potent than other triches

the lack of interbreeding and selective cultivation stagnates the gene pool

 

[dg]

^ i think we have an amazing amount of avail clones and genetics
add in all the new crosses being made by members of our(entheo) community and the bounty is quite large

 

[ipumaestro]

what i meant to say is "comparatively to thousands of years of wild cross breading, our current gene pool is quite limited"

but youre correct, and our interbreeding options multiply each season

 

[oneistheall]

^ i think we have an amazing amount of avail clones and genetics
add in all the new crosses being made by members of our(entheo) community and the bounty is quite large

I agree.In the last years there has been an amazing availability of mescaline producing trichos, compared to the years before where people where confused by PC Pachanoi and KK242/Cuzco mixed batches… Inactive Cusco being sold as Peruvianus and Predominant Cultivar Pachanoi being wide spread in the USA… I guess that still happens but the other genetics are more and more present .Thanks to private collectors who are exchanging good clones and some creating amazing crosses, shops like SS and even Karel K. who has a bad reputation, but he alone has done a lot propagating and distributing good genetics, shipping tons of good clones to the USA.Icaros deserves to be mentioned because I believe that he has shipped millions of Matucana Peruvianus seed all over the world.

 

[oneistheall]

I heard that Bridgesii var. Monstrose. Anyone heard that?

There is no data about that( but bioassays) , that I know.It might be BUT : whats the growing rate /square centimetre of skin growth per year? In all the published work Pachanoi has tested the highest, time after time.But again, there are aspects like alkalloid mix and trip quality, more dreamy (Pachanoi) , cleaner mescaline (Peruvianus) and more Peyote like (Bridgesii) . I could not point at a single plant and say "thats the one" the Garden of the Lord is so diverse! And besides, is there really a BIG difference between a 500mg trip and a 700mg one? I mean, every experience is unique just like the moment we live.

 

[DeDao]

I think the growth per year is VERY small. Supposedly that is why it can gather so much mescaline per sq inch.

 

[Ilex]

In general, I have found Trichocereus pachanoi to be the least potent by weight, Trichocereus bridgesii the most potent by weight, and Trichocereus peruvianus somewhere between the two. Bridgesii I might take 10-20 grams, or 20-50 grams of torch, or 25-75 grams of pedro. That said, subjectively I like San Pedro the best. It has this extra warm, fuzzy and relaxing quality to it, bridgesii is more potent for sure but not as cuddly.

I like to think the personalities of the cacti are reflected in their appearance. San Pedro has only small thorns or none at all, and is the "friendlist" species. Peruvian torch has longer thorns, but bridgesii takes the cake for the longest thorns, and gnarliest personality to go with it.

 

[ipumaestro]

I like to think the personalities of the cacti are reflected in their appearance. San Pedro has only small thorns or none at all, and is the "friendlist" species. Peruvian torch has longer thorns, but bridgesii takes the cake for the longest thorns, and gnarliest personality to go with it.

achuma lured me into its lessons because of its unique "TWANG" that the others seemed to lack. i no longer feel the twang like i did, but im glad it drew me near

 

[SKA]

I heard that Bridgesii var. Monstrose. Anyone heard that?

for thos of us who dont live in south america, trichocereus genetics are relatively limited. From this limited selection its become a well supported theory that T bridgesii var monstrosse is on average more potent than other clones, including its non monstrosse counter part (t bridgesii) which is commonly more potent than other triches

the lack of interbreeding and selective cultivation stagnates the gene pool

Allright. We Trichocereus growers should interbreed more. I have a 90cm T.Pachanoi
growing, but I've no clue how these cacti reproduce, much less how to interbreed different
triches. I've read it isn't too hard to ent different trich species, or even Peyote on a Trichocereus stump. Let's say I cut down my T.Pachanoi & ent the top part of a T.Bridgesii
on the Pachanoi stump. If this cactus is to ever make flowers & seeds, would the seeds have altered genetics of both triches?

Well I have alot to learn about the botany of these Cacti. I better hurry up since I
was hoping to harvest & consume my Pachanoi the comming summer.

 

[Ilex]

If you graft one cactus onto another, it does not mix their genetics. The base would still be a pachanoi, and the top would still be a bridgesii. To cross two Trichocereus species, you would have to wait until they flower, and then cross pollinate the flowers. The seeds resulting from this cross pollination would grow into a hybrid of the two species.

Cacti reproduce like any other flowering plant, by flowering and then setting seed. They can also be propagated by cuttings (if you cut the top off and plant it, it will regrow, and the old stump will grow another one or two heads). Cuttings are genetically the same as the parent plant.

 

[ipumaestro]

as a curious novelty one could graft one trich on another and let them both flower and they may cross pollinate themself

 

[Keeper Trout]

It was interesting in the wake of publishing Sacred Cacti that there was a fair bit of criticism for even mentioning bridgesii. A few people with familiarity apparently wished it could be kept completely invisible.
Its a sound thought in principle although it was also the desire, by one single person (DZ), to keep peruvianus and macrogonus out of public availability that caused it to be such a hassle to locate in most of the US until the late 1990s and beyond. That one, wealthy, individual aggressively attempted to search out and buy up any and all nursery stock he could locate in the US specifically to keep it out of everyone else's hands -- purportedly on the notion he was protecting the plant. Its not clear to me though how one person creating a forest of trichs in one spot really protected the plant as well as thousands of us growing it.


The monstrose bridgesii does not have any formal published analysis that supports what is commonly claimed in bioassays (Ogunbodede reported only 0.5% in its dried outer green layer) which has lead some people to propose it additionally contains an MAOI. It would be nice to see actual work done in that area.
The tripping point seems to be that most workers can only look for mescaline since reference compounds are lacking for most of the cactus alkaloids unless that researcher wants to synthesize their own or slowly builds up a reference standard library of their previously isolated and purified compounds. Mescaline is readily available as a standard so its simple by comparison.
Lack of adequate available standards is a serious challenge for workers in this area.


Most pachanoi are really weak (down to around 0.1% has been reported) compared to the best testing ones (as high as 5%) but all of those latter ones used only the outer green tissues of Peruvian plants and the lowest one used young propagated nursery stock in the US so its not clear how those low and high values actually compare to each other.


It is true though that if none of us would ever discuss these plants openly online or in print they would be less likely to attract unwanted attention. Of course if that had been the case it would also be true that very few of us would know they were something we wanted to be growing and there would be far fewer people aggressively propagating the best plants for our community. A huge part of the amazing availability of so many offerings is the demand for them. There is surely a common sense balance that can be found?
When someone stumbles on extremely potent plants it is probably best to quietly propagate and distribute them without a lot of fanfare.

 

[oneistheall]

the cactus of mystery, indeed.