Mother wants to trip on DMT, taking beta blockers.

[stoneybalogna]

Apologizing in advance, feel like I'm blowing up the welcome discussion area lol, but I don't see post limits and I've got too many damn questions :lol: But to the question!***Will be marked for tldr folk***

Minor background first, I lied, I'm sorry. My mom is ~50 years old, she smoked weed while she was in high school, I've since introduced her, at her request, to 1P-LSD(I believe she took 50ug at most each time, and maybe two or three times), and 4AcO-DMT(I think 10-20mg, can't remember if she split the pill in two or not). The 4AcO kind of spooked her in the beginning, as she was experiencing this strange trembling/shaking that didn't really hurt, just more concerned her. Once she was past that she said she listened to some music with her eyes closed and described seeing the music almost approach her, wrap around her, it seemed physical. Pretty neat. I've also given her 2.5g of mushrooms, which she enjoyed, but not as much as the 4AcO for some reason(maybe dose/purity?). But the point here is, she's tripped before, just not terribly hard, and she isn't too big on getting far out.

She's interested in trying DMT now, and I want this to go as well as possible for her first time, so I'd figured 10mg to start with, and I wanted to look up any medication interactions for her.

***She's currently taking blood pressure medication, atenolol and hydrochlorothiazide, which are both beta blockers. I've tried looking it up myself, and I'm getting mixed reports. Rick Strassman mentions having done a study using pindolol, another beta blocker, and reported 2-3x intensity of effects, and some other people mention less fight or flight responses(presumably meaning less anxiety/fear?), but no amplification of effects. I'm mostly concerned since DMT can raise heart rate and BP on it's own, and if the effects are going to be multiplied for her on account of her meds, I feel like it could become overwhelming very rapidly for her. Does anyone have experience with beta blockers and DMT themselves?*** And if not, I'd love some links or resources to take a look at. And if anything needs extra clarification or I'm overlooking something, feel free to ask. Thank you all, much love

 

[bismillah]

What kind of lottery do you have to win to have a parent not only accepting of psychedelics, but embracing of them?

Starting with doses around where you mentioned is pretty certainly safe, but of course you and your mother understand that there is inherent risk of an intense experience with psychedelics regardless of precautions taken. If you want to smoke DMT then you have to be willing to accept that possibility. I have no comment on the beta blockers but the same would be true with or without them.

 

[stoneybalogna]

What kind of lottery do you have to win to have a parent not only accepting of psychedelics, but embracing of them?

No kidding. Once I grew out of the "Man my mom doesn't know anything, she's just trying to keep me down man!" phase, I realized she was doing her best. Single mom. Love her to death.

If you want to smoke DMT then you have to be willing to accept that possibility.

And this is true, too. I've explained to her just how overwhelmingly powerful and alien it is on higher doses, but I think her previous trips now have at least made her open to that, if not intrigued. I'm also thinking her willingness to try DMT specifically comes from the trip being so short.

I'm not sure how deep she's willing to go, but she said she was looking for a new experience, maybe a revelation. I'm thinking if she reacts well to the 10mg, I'll increase the dose in 5mg increments until she get where she wants to be. And hell, she was incredibly sensitive to the 1P, so for all I know, 10mg might be all she would want to handle. Thank you for the feedback though, and for reminding me how dope my mom is

 

[roninsina]

10mg can provide a somewhat immersive experience for me and I’m not on any medication that may have questionable contraindications. If you guys have decided you’re willing to take the associated risks, it would be safer to start with working your way up from microdoses and maybe go as far a checking her blood pressure etc.

 

[stoneybalogna]

10mg can provide a somewhat immersive experience for me and I’m not on any medication that may have questionable contraindications

Man, that's the worst part about psychs to me, is that due everyone's individual physiology, effects can vary so much. That's good to know though!

it would be safer to start with working your way up from microdoses and maybe go as far a checking her blood pressure etc

And frankly, I'd been second guessing the 10mg, but intervals of 10mg is all my current scale can handle. I'm thinking I'll just weigh out the .01, and then take off a bit so that it *should* be between maybe 5 and 8mg. And the blood pressure is a really good idea! She actually already has a little mini cuff kinda deal, runs on double A batteries. Not perfect, but sufficient for this at least. I'll run it by her. Thank you roninsina

 

[roninsina]

I’m not trying to dictate or prescribe by any means. To be clear, I have zero qualifications to give anyone medical advice of any kind. :!:

But to reiterate what I was saying, in a less cryptic manner. I was suggesting a more standard definition of microdose. Microdoses are usually defined by a small fraction of a threshold dose, ie 10% or so. The idea being to observe any reaction with her meds that might put her in danger and not to see if she got any psychedelic affects.

That’s a totally arbitrary amount and not specific advice, and it still borders on ignoring harm reduction protocols by my definition. I was only suggesting you dramatically reduce the initial dosage one would normally feel safe with and very gradually build from there; and that’s if and only if you were both determined to move forward without significantly more research.

There’s never really a good reason to move toward these experiences with a sense of urgency IMO. Better to treat it like you’re Jane Goodall and DMT is a troop of enormous apes that you’ve just come across for the first time.

Edit: meant Dian Fossey not Jane Goodall

 

[stoneybalogna]

I gotcha. I was thinking 10mg initially because of posts I'd seen recommending that as a threshold dose/allergy test dose. I'm wondering then, if it would just be better, for her specifically, to wait until I've gotten a .001 scale. I'm fine being within ~10mg+- as I'm not really planning on going above 20mg until I feel acclimated to these experiences again(and hell, I've heard some people say that even 20mg can be a lot lol), but that 10mg could be a world of difference for her, especially if her medication might interact in an unexpected way.

I completely agree with you on taking it slow, regardless of whether or not you're a medical professional :lol: It would break my heart to give her something that could a) put her in the hospital, mental or otherwise, and b) that might be too much for her to handle, which I suppose ties in with the first. I guess if she wanted to proceed with this, I'd try my best to be safe. Test her HR and BP before the trip, probably during the trip for at least the first few as we work our way up the doses, and potentially even after the trip once we're past the during stage. You're coming from the right place, and I appreciate that

 

[fathomlessness]

Always, always, always check interaction effects when taking two different medicines/molecules.

Beta-blockers and DMT have an affect and according to previous users, change it rather dramatically:

"It was WAY more intense, like a lot longer but it was different from regular DMT. On regular spice I sometimes start crying at how profound a message I gained, on beta blockers it was more of a message being engraved in my head. It was a lot more intense.

In my opinion, based on research and reports: DMT is heavy on the heart for people with heart issues or who are old. A less rapid version of N-N-DMT called HO-DMT would be less intense. HO-DMT is psilocybin btw :lol: gotcha

"Diastolic blood pressure showed a significant increase at the high dose (9 mm Hg at 75 min), whereas systolic blood pressure and heart rate were moderately and nonsignificantly increased." Human pharmacology of ayahuasca: subjective and cardiovascular effects, monoamine metabolite excretion, and pharmacokinetics - PubMed

 

[stoneybalogna]

Definitely. And that was actually the post I saw with the Strassman study that made me post here lol. I was struggling to find anything else really, and I've since decided to lower the dose below 10mg, and to have her cuff ready to take her vitals before and during the trip. I take my own safety, for the most part, pretty seriously when working with these substances, and I'm taking hers even more so. Thanks for the comment

Edit: I missed the last half of your comment somehow, I might look into that. I'd already been looking at 4-HO-MET since I've struggled to find 4AcO again, and that sounded pretty similar to what I got from the 4AcO. Thank you again

 

[roninsina]

corpus callosum is the username of our resident MD. He has, most generously, divulged to us his qualifications, and still occasionally logs in for matters like this, though it looks like he hasn’t done so for a few months. Maybe he’ll make an appearance or possibly more members with a better facility for research can chime in, as fathomlessness has done.

 

[dreamer042]

To get better visibility and help people searching for information on this topic in the future, I'd suggest adding something like "DMT and beta-blockers" to the title of the thread.

Those with medical knowledge tend to keep an eye out for thread titles that specifically address medical issues and yours is likely to go unnoticed with the current title.

 

[stoneybalogna]

To get better visibility and help people searching for information on this topic in the future, I'd suggest adding something like "DMT and beta-blockers" to the title of the thread.

Thank you! That's a good call. I'll edit it now :thumb_up:

 

[fathomlessness]

To get better visibility and help people searching for information on this topic in the future, I'd suggest adding something like "DMT and beta-blockers" to the title of the thread.

Those with medical knowledge tend to keep an eye out for thread titles that specifically address medical issues and yours is likely to go unnoticed with the current title.

It is true. I use google search instead of the forum search because it obtains better results (not sure if that can ever be updated). I use this method, type in to google site: dmt-nexus.me/forum "word or sentence you want to search for"
Quotations bring identical matches. Lack of quotations yields similar words and topics.