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No d-Limo, No NP Solvent, No Acetone, All-Natural Extraction?
- Thread starter Wanderer
- Start date
It's always interesting to see how quick folks are to dismiss novel methods of extraction, particularly of the nontoxic variety. The same happened with lime, and to this day, it's still hardly caught on. Even limonene had its heyday of skepticism. SWIM finds that mostof the hazardous chemicals he used to use for extraction are the sorts he would have never had cause to have in his home otherwise, and since using fumaric acid, sodium carbonate, vinegar, lime, limonene, and now, vegetable oil, he couldn't imagine going back, if for no other reason than having no inclination to do so--it would be so far out of his way to purchase them anymore.
For SWIM, it's a question of ergonomics: The mechanics of limteks, for instance, jive far better for him than dealing with large volumes of liquid, and he hasn't had to sacrifice anything but a few dangerous chemicals to make the switch. Petro-chemicals reek, and while limonene is a fairly decent solution to that, it's far from perfect and is fairly expensive. SWIM is likely to always have limonene on-hand, but the less he has to use, the better. What's more appropriate to dilute limonene with than vegetable oil?
For the nexus at large, methods like these will help prevent noobs (as SWIM, himself, once was) from drawing suspicion, tripping "meth alerts" and the like. To the public, they would be far more wholesome methods of extraction that will draw fewer comparisons to meth production.
SWIM would like to urge those experimenting with these methods to try following the methods that others have reported success with unless in the experimentation for the long-haul. Either way, it's foolish to hinge the viability of a method on one failed experiment, as with the appropriate methods, the extraction is always recoverable--either with a different oil or simply by replacing the oil with a solvent.
Well, in any case, what's needed here is just a few decent teks to help clear things up.
For SWIM, it's a question of ergonomics: The mechanics of limteks, for instance, jive far better for him than dealing with large volumes of liquid, and he hasn't had to sacrifice anything but a few dangerous chemicals to make the switch. Petro-chemicals reek, and while limonene is a fairly decent solution to that, it's far from perfect and is fairly expensive. SWIM is likely to always have limonene on-hand, but the less he has to use, the better. What's more appropriate to dilute limonene with than vegetable oil?
For the nexus at large, methods like these will help prevent noobs (as SWIM, himself, once was) from drawing suspicion, tripping "meth alerts" and the like. To the public, they would be far more wholesome methods of extraction that will draw fewer comparisons to meth production.
SWIM would like to urge those experimenting with these methods to try following the methods that others have reported success with unless in the experimentation for the long-haul. Either way, it's foolish to hinge the viability of a method on one failed experiment, as with the appropriate methods, the extraction is always recoverable--either with a different oil or simply by replacing the oil with a solvent.
Well, in any case, what's needed here is just a few decent teks to help clear things up.
logos2012
Rising Star
The Green Entity agrees ^^.
He tried again with some fresh bark and organic olive oil. This time he used the blender to mix the calcium carbonate and a bit of water into the bark powder that had a heat bath in some white vinegar, but instead of using the blender to mix the oil in, he just stirred it 3 different times while in the hour heat bath. This was much easier to deal with as there was not a bunch of plant matter stuck in the oil.
He then did 3 separate pulls/heat baths with the olive oil then combined the pulls, filtered with a THP with a bit of cheese cloth and did FASW. (Pretty much the amor_fati's Nontoxic Approach but with olive oil)
He says the fumerate yield is ridiculous! He has never seen so much from 100 grams bark. He wonders if the olive oil is pulling anything else as the fumerates are a light browinsh/pink color. He will have to report back once he has had a chance to try the quality of the freebase.
He tried again with some fresh bark and organic olive oil. This time he used the blender to mix the calcium carbonate and a bit of water into the bark powder that had a heat bath in some white vinegar, but instead of using the blender to mix the oil in, he just stirred it 3 different times while in the hour heat bath. This was much easier to deal with as there was not a bunch of plant matter stuck in the oil.
He then did 3 separate pulls/heat baths with the olive oil then combined the pulls, filtered with a THP with a bit of cheese cloth and did FASW. (Pretty much the amor_fati's Nontoxic Approach but with olive oil)
He says the fumerate yield is ridiculous! He has never seen so much from 100 grams bark. He wonders if the olive oil is pulling anything else as the fumerates are a light browinsh/pink color. He will have to report back once he has had a chance to try the quality of the freebase.
Yeah im very curious how much is lost in the conversion to freebase. Please post yields once its converted to freebase. Are you gonna do the slow water crystallization conversion?
logos2012
Rising Star
No, he usually just does a conversion with sodium carbonate and 99% iso and never seems to lose much more than the fumaric acid. The key is to roll a glass pill bottle over the fumarates and the sodium carbonate before they are mixed so they are a fine powder. Then again after the bit of water is added so one is sure that it is properly mixed. He usually chops it up with a razor blade while it is still a bit wet too so it doesn't clump up too much.
Wanderer
Rising Star
SWIM just got back to me with the results! He has to agree with the green entity about yield (read below).
So the oil-layer had two distinct "horizons" -- a clear oily layer and an opaque "soapy" layer.
He did FASW draws from the clear oily layer first, and got what looked like 1-2 grams of fumarate out of that (after drying and drawing off excess fumaric acid with acetone). He then filtered the DMT-fumarate after mixing the resulting beige salts in water. The filtrate was perfectly clear solution. Then to get the DMT salts from this, SWIM tried to dry it in a glass pan which was placed on a hot-plate. Near the end of the drying, the glass shattered from heat-stress and SWIM lost all but maybe 50 mg of salts. The salts were perfectly white though. Not having enough to freebase, SWIM wanted to test if this was, indeed, DMT salts. So he tried to vaporize a bit on foil and used a straw to "chase the dragon". SWIM has never done DMT or strong psychedelics (only sub-visual doses of psilocybin), so he wasn't sure to expect. As the salts were heated, fumes came off which tasted a bit like fruity burned wax while the salts themselves browned and shrunk. SWIM held it but didn't feel or see anything besides a mild sense of "difference".
So the next day SWIM decided to try and extract the "soapy" layer. After pulling out the soapy layer, he poured in a bit of FASW into it. He stirred it up and let it separate out. He then siphoned off most of the top oily soapy layer and used a tissue to wick up the smaller oil layer on the top. He then filtered the water (which was a bit brownish) through a coffee filter and got some beige water out of it (with very little oil). SWIM then dried this in a *metal* pan this time. He took the resulting salts and drew off the excess fumaric acid with acetone. He was left with 3.54 grams (!) of fumarate salt, an incredible amount from 150g of bark (not to mention he lost half the yield in the process). SWIM isn't sure if the product is pure, so he is in the process of freebasing it now. The carbonate/fumarate salt mix smells a bit like fake grape flavoring (or medicine), and wonders if this is normal? Perhaps some of the soapy material somehow adulterated the final product, though SWIM wonders how this could be after he did many different solvent washes.
SWIM will report back to me with results after the carbonate does its magic. He also lacks a milligram scale (or an accurate one), and was wondering what sort of physical object could be used as reference for about 20-30mg of freebase (half a grain of rice, a match head, etc)? Maybe just sprinkle a few grains out to see if it tastes like plastic when vaped?
-- Wanderer
So the oil-layer had two distinct "horizons" -- a clear oily layer and an opaque "soapy" layer.
He did FASW draws from the clear oily layer first, and got what looked like 1-2 grams of fumarate out of that (after drying and drawing off excess fumaric acid with acetone). He then filtered the DMT-fumarate after mixing the resulting beige salts in water. The filtrate was perfectly clear solution. Then to get the DMT salts from this, SWIM tried to dry it in a glass pan which was placed on a hot-plate. Near the end of the drying, the glass shattered from heat-stress and SWIM lost all but maybe 50 mg of salts. The salts were perfectly white though. Not having enough to freebase, SWIM wanted to test if this was, indeed, DMT salts. So he tried to vaporize a bit on foil and used a straw to "chase the dragon". SWIM has never done DMT or strong psychedelics (only sub-visual doses of psilocybin), so he wasn't sure to expect. As the salts were heated, fumes came off which tasted a bit like fruity burned wax while the salts themselves browned and shrunk. SWIM held it but didn't feel or see anything besides a mild sense of "difference".
So the next day SWIM decided to try and extract the "soapy" layer. After pulling out the soapy layer, he poured in a bit of FASW into it. He stirred it up and let it separate out. He then siphoned off most of the top oily soapy layer and used a tissue to wick up the smaller oil layer on the top. He then filtered the water (which was a bit brownish) through a coffee filter and got some beige water out of it (with very little oil). SWIM then dried this in a *metal* pan this time. He took the resulting salts and drew off the excess fumaric acid with acetone. He was left with 3.54 grams (!) of fumarate salt, an incredible amount from 150g of bark (not to mention he lost half the yield in the process). SWIM isn't sure if the product is pure, so he is in the process of freebasing it now. The carbonate/fumarate salt mix smells a bit like fake grape flavoring (or medicine), and wonders if this is normal? Perhaps some of the soapy material somehow adulterated the final product, though SWIM wonders how this could be after he did many different solvent washes.
SWIM will report back to me with results after the carbonate does its magic. He also lacks a milligram scale (or an accurate one), and was wondering what sort of physical object could be used as reference for about 20-30mg of freebase (half a grain of rice, a match head, etc)? Maybe just sprinkle a few grains out to see if it tastes like plastic when vaped?
-- Wanderer
Stop being a cheap bastard and get a scale 
Haha nah but really, get it, maybe till now you havent needed it but you will use it often for sure so its worth it. Also if you have spare money get some GVG and a torch lighter, it will make your needed dmt dose halve, as well as be ultra smooth (no plastic taste).
By the way, dont smoke salts, convert to freebase. Just redissolve fumarate in water, slowly add sodium-carb-saturated-solution till color stops changing and into the fridge for 3-5 days, dmt freebase will crystalize out of water (result will be purer than if you do it with the IPA/acetone pulls on the sodium carb-dmt paste)
Haha nah but really, get it, maybe till now you havent needed it but you will use it often for sure so its worth it. Also if you have spare money get some GVG and a torch lighter, it will make your needed dmt dose halve, as well as be ultra smooth (no plastic taste).
By the way, dont smoke salts, convert to freebase. Just redissolve fumarate in water, slowly add sodium-carb-saturated-solution till color stops changing and into the fridge for 3-5 days, dmt freebase will crystalize out of water (result will be purer than if you do it with the IPA/acetone pulls on the sodium carb-dmt paste)
logos2012
Rising Star
HEEHEHE!!!! WEEEW~~!! He says, so much better with fresh bark.
So Green Entity loaded up a fat hit of the freebase, enough just to make sure cause lately it seems that he burns it all to quickly. He could only stand about 3 hits till he was gone to good ol' hyperspace, probably only finished half the hit. Pretty damned visual. Very smooth and plant tasting. His limo extracted stuff is usually a bit harsh.
He had so much fun that he redosed after 5 minutes which wasn't as intense but he definitely had some intense visions. He can't wait to try it with some harmalas.
In that way of freebasing, how does one retrieve the crystals from the sodium carb water?
So Green Entity loaded up a fat hit of the freebase, enough just to make sure cause lately it seems that he burns it all to quickly. He could only stand about 3 hits till he was gone to good ol' hyperspace, probably only finished half the hit. Pretty damned visual. Very smooth and plant tasting. His limo extracted stuff is usually a bit harsh.
He had so much fun that he redosed after 5 minutes which wasn't as intense but he definitely had some intense visions. He can't wait to try it with some harmalas.
In that way of freebasing, how does one retrieve the crystals from the sodium carb water?
Good its working fine
Here: Fumarate to freebase conversion: water crystalization
Let us know how that worked for you, good luck!
Here: Fumarate to freebase conversion: water crystalization
Let us know how that worked for you, good luck!
Wanderer
Rising Star
Thanks endlessness. The only reason SWIM tried smoking the salts was because he had so little of it the first time around, and didn't have enough to make freebasing worthwhile. He is now freebasing the large 3.56 gram extract though, to see how that works.
And good to hear that from the Green Entity! Makes SWIM eager to try his. He needs to clean up his surroundings a bit though -- the clutter is a bit distracting.
-- Wanderer
And good to hear that from the Green Entity! Makes SWIM eager to try his. He needs to clean up his surroundings a bit though -- the clutter is a bit distracting.
-- Wanderer
logos2012
Rising Star
The Green Entity tried smoking some of the olive oil extracted stuff again with smoked harmalas.
This time he smoked till he could not stand more and it was quite an adventure through hyperspace. He was listening to Heyoka the "Gate Code" album (great hyperspace music by the way if you haven't heard it) He saw some reddish swirling energy in the corner of his eyes closed. He then proceeded to turn his head to see that the whole big and tall room was filled with this morphing energy. As soon as he realized that the energy was an entity it shrunk down and turned into humanoid form and came up to shake his hand. The entity then telepathically communicated, "What, you don't remember me? How could you forget a guy with a suit like this?" The entity then proceeded to turn back into morphing energy as he walked away.
He said it was kinda fuzzy from there but as he was leaving some female elves took him to apparently the chamber like rooms that you go into when you are leaving hyperspace. The Green Entity did not want to leave, so he made up an excuse that he had left his wallet somewhere and needed to find it. The female elves than proceeded to help him look for it for a minute, then said not to worry, that they would find it and get it back to him. Afterwards glowing OEV's for about 10 minutes.
The next day he tried some pharmauasca with the olive oil fumerates. He put 200mg cappi harmalas in a shot of grapefruit juice. Then waited 25 min and took another grapefruit shot with 100mg fumerates.
He said it was quite an amazing experience. He's never quite broke through on a pharmauasca experience, but definitely did this time.
As it came on slowly in 30 or so minutes he sat with his eyes closed meditating. He faced his shadow self that was wearing a cowboy hat made friends with it as it smiled back at him. Then went to a water world. He met the entities of this water world. They had bluish skin with white and black head dresses and face paint. They told him to get strapped in because he was about to go for a ride through the water world. He then met one of the female officers of the submarine, fell in love and apparently he now has an alien girlfriend who is the cutest thing you've ever seen.
Experience lasted about 4 hours till the OEVs were almost gone. Then he took 3 hits of freebase, danced in spirals for 5 minutes and had OEVs for another hour with massive euphoria.
The point of all this being is that he thinks this stuff is every bit as good as limo or naptha extracted stuff. He would be curious to hear anyone elses experiences with this stuff.
His first 2 pulls with the iso were kind of yellowish and a bit pink but the last pull was dark pinkish orange so he thinks it definitely has got to be picking up some jungle. Fumerates are dark pinkish orange as well.
With these experiences, he might never bother with limo again but possibly try a different oil to see the differences.
This time he smoked till he could not stand more and it was quite an adventure through hyperspace. He was listening to Heyoka the "Gate Code" album (great hyperspace music by the way if you haven't heard it) He saw some reddish swirling energy in the corner of his eyes closed. He then proceeded to turn his head to see that the whole big and tall room was filled with this morphing energy. As soon as he realized that the energy was an entity it shrunk down and turned into humanoid form and came up to shake his hand. The entity then telepathically communicated, "What, you don't remember me? How could you forget a guy with a suit like this?" The entity then proceeded to turn back into morphing energy as he walked away.
He said it was kinda fuzzy from there but as he was leaving some female elves took him to apparently the chamber like rooms that you go into when you are leaving hyperspace. The Green Entity did not want to leave, so he made up an excuse that he had left his wallet somewhere and needed to find it. The female elves than proceeded to help him look for it for a minute, then said not to worry, that they would find it and get it back to him. Afterwards glowing OEV's for about 10 minutes.
The next day he tried some pharmauasca with the olive oil fumerates. He put 200mg cappi harmalas in a shot of grapefruit juice. Then waited 25 min and took another grapefruit shot with 100mg fumerates.
He said it was quite an amazing experience. He's never quite broke through on a pharmauasca experience, but definitely did this time.
As it came on slowly in 30 or so minutes he sat with his eyes closed meditating. He faced his shadow self that was wearing a cowboy hat made friends with it as it smiled back at him. Then went to a water world. He met the entities of this water world. They had bluish skin with white and black head dresses and face paint. They told him to get strapped in because he was about to go for a ride through the water world. He then met one of the female officers of the submarine, fell in love and apparently he now has an alien girlfriend who is the cutest thing you've ever seen.
Experience lasted about 4 hours till the OEVs were almost gone. Then he took 3 hits of freebase, danced in spirals for 5 minutes and had OEVs for another hour with massive euphoria.
The point of all this being is that he thinks this stuff is every bit as good as limo or naptha extracted stuff. He would be curious to hear anyone elses experiences with this stuff.
His first 2 pulls with the iso were kind of yellowish and a bit pink but the last pull was dark pinkish orange so he thinks it definitely has got to be picking up some jungle. Fumerates are dark pinkish orange as well.
With these experiences, he might never bother with limo again but possibly try a different oil to see the differences.
Thanks for the feedback! If you can do side-by-side to compare yields (pictures also welcome) with different oils, thats very appreciated. Otherwise in any way thanks for sharing the results
Curiouskid
Rising Star
Wahoo that's awsome thank you sooo much for this experiment and report logos2012, don't need anymore the hassle to look for limonene!
would anyone think that would work as good with mescaline?
would anyone think that would work as good with mescaline?
Curiouskid said:
It would probably even yield a purer product from trichocereus. SWIM'll likely get around to it, but he's trying focus on growing cacti, rather than extraction, for the moment. SWIM's loving all these goings on.
I recently did a side-by-side limonene and canola oil mescaline dry-tek extraction. Due to the high viscosity of the canola oil, I ended up adding some limonene to the mix and it made working with the oil significantly easier (I probably created a mix that was between 70/30 and 80/20 canola oil/limonene).amor_fati said:
The initial pulls from the canola/limo were incredibly clean compared to the initial pulls from the pure limonene, but do to some extenuating circumstances, this could also have been because the limonene was subjected to a decently longer period of time in the oven (but I doubt it, as the temp never exceeded 145 F).
I haven't weighed all of the pulls yet (or even evaporated my last couple) but I have to say, I think you could easily (at least for the sake of dry-tek mescaline extractions) stretch 1 gallon of limonene into 3 or 4 gallons of usable, "green", eco-friendly solvent without fear of loss in % yield.
Nice, SnozzleB! Had a feeling the type of oil may not make much difference (contrary to prior reports with canola), apart from viscosity. SWIM would consider trying just the oil, not worrying too much about retrieving it all in the first few pulls then add limonene for the final pulls. The viscosity shouldn't make much of a difference for the bulk of the process up to final retrieval; if attempting to separate by freezing after salting, it would be wise set aside a bit of limonene to collect oil off of the ice chunk (as has been mentioned before) and use that same oil/limo mixture for the final pulls. The reasoning behind doing initial pulls with just oil would be to compare purity.
SWIM also wonders whether a small amount of warm oil would be used on extracted salts (mescaline and spice, alike) during a freebase conversion, then re-salting to purify; assuming of course that impurities would remain mingled with the excess sodium carbonate and whatnot.
SWIM also wonders whether a small amount of warm oil would be used on extracted salts (mescaline and spice, alike) during a freebase conversion, then re-salting to purify; assuming of course that impurities would remain mingled with the excess sodium carbonate and whatnot.
That's a good call, I'm not gonna lie, I may have freaked out a bit when I saw how the oil seemed to sink into the cactus mix and added limo to make sure I could get my product out. I still have more of the same cactus chips and can do another extraction with just canola oil until the end and see how it comes out. I'll take pics of purity and get a full yield % and whatnot.amor_fati said:
Also, I have a bunch of impure, deep-red acetate that I could try to purify with some oil. When I get a moment to sit down and play around with it, I'll give it a shot.
SnozzleBerry said:
Probably just a drytek (minus the drying) freebase conversion with oil as the solvent in a hot water bath and plenty of stirring, then vigorous salting, preferably with FASW, I would think. It would be interesting to try with dilute vinegar, however.
SnozzleBerry said:
Smoke point (breakdown) for different oils
Smoke point - Wikipedia
The table of viscosity of different oils
Fuel Properties of Various Oils and Fats -- SVO Powering Your Vehicle with Straight Vegetable Oil (Excel)
Viscosity – The Physics Hypertextbook (Scroll down to Viscosities of Selected Materials)
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/725107971
http://voconversionbasics.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=357827
Some values:
Water: ~1 @20C
Rapeseed: 90 @25C
Soy bean: 50 @25C
Rapeseed: 38 @50C
Soy bean: 22 @50C
Rapeseed: 5 @110C
Soy bean : 5 @110C
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So to sum up, oil needs to be heated at around 1x0 C to get liquidish. 150 C would be a safe bet in my opinion and almost all oils have smoke point above that. Extraction in a deep fryer ? Maybez.
[1] Temperature dependence of viscosity - Wikipedia
EDIT: Haven't though about how those temperatures might effect the DMT. ANyone ?
EDIT2:
Corn oil: 28 @54.4C
Corn oil: 9 @100C
Coconut oil: 15 @54.4C
Liquids - Kinematic Viscosities
Kinematic viscosities of some common liquids like motor oil, diesel fuel, peanut oil and many more.
www.engineeringtoolbox.com