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No d-Limo, No NP Solvent, No Acetone, All-Natural Extraction?

Migrated topic.
Wanderer

Wanderer

Rising Star
In keeping with SWIM's ever streamlining and natural-ingredient incorporating mind, SWIM had an idea.

SWIM remembers reading about Jorkest's d-Limo and Fumaric Acid Approach. Apparently all he used the NP solvent (d-Limonene) for was as a non-polar solution for the freebase to migrate into.

That got SWIM wondering as to why one would even use d-Limonene at all in this case, and not some other natural non-polar compound like plant oil. The volatility in this case is irrelevant, since the fumaric acid saturate water would pull the freebase into aqueous solution.

So now SWIM is wondering -- can an all-natural extraction be as simple as basifying the MHRB in aqueous solution, adding a light plant oil (olive oil, walnut oil, linseed oil, etc), and then pulling the freebase to fumarate in aqueous solution with fumaric acid saturated water?

In fact, if one was really in a pinch and didn't have access to any commercial chemicals, it would be possible to brew one's own acetic acid outdoors from cider or wine, distill it, and use rendered oil and wood-ash hydroxides to substitute for the store-bought chemicals. It wouldn't be perfectly pure in the end, but it would be better than an ethanolic extraction or something along those lines.

Any thoughts or input? SWIM will have to give this a go.

-- Wanderer
 
Check this subforum:

and check these posts/threads:


I say go for it and increase the reports using plant oils! If you can make a side-by-side extraction using plant oil and limo or normal a/b to compare, thats even better. Otherwise just trying it out and letting us know is very appreciated. If I had the time/situation for it I would definitely try it out too :)

I would go for FASW and then adding sodium carb to the water to crystalize dmt freebase out of water in the fridge after a few days.
 
Ah, I appreciate the links and thread move endlessness. I'm used to just scrolling right down to the nursery that I forgot about the rest of the forum :roll: .

SWIM will be back with reports in a few days. He needs to accrue some ingredients. :)

-- Wanderer
 
Read The Green Entity's post in the armor_fati non toxic thread. He saw that the tek had been tried with vegetable oil so he decided to try it with olive oil with ridiculous yeild. Seems even better than limo although if the limo was heated it might be just as good. He thinks it probably works better if one were to follow the tek in the armor_fati non toxic approach rather than the Spiceman tek but substitute a plant oil for limo and heat baths with the oil for an hour with water that is just under boiling.

He had a great experience the other night with smoked harmaloids and the olive oil extracted stuff. Also seemed to be a bit less harsh on the lungs.
 
SWIM would be a little hesitant to heat the water or oil above 60 degrees C. Above that the freebased goodies would be vaporized and would leave the solution, even the oil, right?
 
I tried this tek about 6 months ago with canola oil..just the way spiceman said and I got nothing..maybe it was the oil..I dunno what went wrong but eventaully I will try again with olive oil...limo is hard to get and apparently I need a business adress to ship it to now in canada so when I run out...
 
Wanderer said:
SWIM would be a little hesitant to heat the water or oil above 60 degrees C. Above that the freebased goodies would be vaporized and would leave the solution, even the oil, right?
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Most evidence seems to point to that figure (100C, even) being a bit low. SWIM just does his hot water baths in a crock pot.
 
Wanderer said:
SWIM would be a little hesitant to heat the water or oil above 60 degrees C. Above that the freebased goodies would be vaporized and would leave the solution, even the oil, right?
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Dont worry about that. First of all the 60-80c boiling point figures that appear around are just completely wrong (Shulgin said so himself in TIHKAL, though he didnt say what was the right number in the end).

Ayahuasca/mimosa are commonly boiled for hours and hours and there are no loss of actives, both harmalas and dmt in salt form can easily stand 100c. But even in freebase form people seem to be heating to just around 100c and still it doesnt vaporize (check the acetate to freebase conversion that some people do by simply evaporating the acetate salts in a double boiler, as shown in house's BLAB JAZZ post or q21 tek)
 
i just dont get why.

its like on tv when they said meth is made with gasoline, paint thinner and pool cleaners!!

its just moot. they are used but its not in it. if you do your job right there is no harm. 1 deep breath of city air has more 'toxins' in it than 50mg of dmt xtracted with petro-chems. and the human body is a damn fine machine for removing 'toxins'

i understand that its fun and new area to explore. it just sounds like veganism or raw foods bullshit to me. coco is processed with caustic chemicals, some foods are made with naoh and acids and kno3 and solvents. most candy is covers in mineral oil. banana leaves are eaten with hydrated lime. the soap/shampoo in the bathroom has chemicals just as dangerous. i work in foods. we use carcinogenic products every day.

nice work tho.
 
LandOfOz said:
i just dont get why....
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Respected.

I also knee-jerk with the food-gradeness hype. SWIM loves his xylene like mad and he even secretly baths in it when others are not watching. But any way you see it, these novel methods are great innovations and a bow to people who pursue them. The advantage lies not only to their apparent safety (which may or may not be true) but on the multiple different methods and materials one can use for extracting spice.

Not many years ago there only was the QT tek! and just a couple of years ago naphtha and lye were mandatory. You know, there are many threads were asking "where can I get lye in Namimbia?! or "where can I get naphtha in germany" etc etc??

Hell if you can buy all you need for an extraction in the supermarket and if all you need is extremely common products, then this is a huge victory already.
 
In fact, if one was really in a pinch and didn't have access to any commercial chemicals, it would be possible to brew one's own acetic acid outdoors from cider or wine, distill it, and use rendered oil and wood-ash hydroxides to substitute for the store-bought chemicals. It wouldn't be perfectly pure in the end, but it would be better than an ethanolic extraction or something along those lines.
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making cider vinegar is not hard, nor is making potash. but "in a pinch" you happen to have a distillation apparatus, but no possibility of buying white vinegar? well if it comes to that than we will likely have many things to worry about especially our spice stash:d

indeed, thanks spiceman:wink:

im thinking a high temp oil will be better. less gums. possibly safflower. i wouldn't think olive would be necessary(its also more expensive) i would avoid canola because it is gmo unless labeled organic.

i had the idea several years ago of using ethyl-esters for an extraction. but then again, maybe the glycerine would help pull alks?
much more research is needed!
 
SWIM just tried this doing an A/B w/ vinegar and lime, using canola oil as the solvent and salting out with vinegar.
2 pulls of warm oil were salted. The emulsion was broken with heat (jar was sat in near-boiling water) and the oil released >90% of the vinegar.

The results after evaporating the vinegar were less than satisfactory.
263mg of brown-crayon DMT-smelling substance was the end-product.

When SWIM smoked (or tried to) it the stuff tasted a little like DMT and gave him a little buzz. It did however catch fire and produce loads of non-DMT smoke which was super-harsh.

SWIM's opinion:
Original idea that may be useful for some, but not "better" in any way than d-limonene teks.
The oil needed to be heated to break the emulsion and there was a little oil in the product at the end which may have some of the DMT dissolved in it.
for 100g of MHRB it required about 350ml of oil before any could be poured off.
The product would required cleaning which a d-limonene product would not (for SWIM at least)

LandOfOz made a good point. Great work on the tek but wouldn't expect it to replace the other teks.
Sorry for being a hater but SWIM won't be trying it again.
 
Well maybe the vinegar salting and conversion is just a very crude one, a FASW and water freebase crystallization could potentially separate the alkaloids better and with a good yield with these natural oils.

I dont think anybody is trying to replace other teks, its about expanding one's possibilities. If dmt can be extracted from dozens of plants with stuff one can find in kitchens worldwide, its sustainability and safety for extractions in the long run. Of course you can still do whatever else method you wanna do and experimentation isnt over, but I would say we must support this spirit as much as possible.

I dont see why people need to equate this with hippie veganism or a hype, this is just silly generalization, there's no need to feel one's own way of extracting is being threatened or criticized. Each one should do as they feel and support experimentation if it doesnt hurt others and rather brings more tools and knowledge to the community ;)
 
Canola oil might not be the best oil to try since fractal enchantment did not have good results either. Would be interesting to try the whole spectrum of oils.

The Green Entity's final result with olive oil was a fluffy yellow powder that actually seemed less harsh than normal. He thinks fumaric acid water is definitely the way to go over vinegar. The vinegar may have been why it was harsh.
 
Indeed, as endlessness states, this is more of a means to find alternatives and widen the breadth of knowledge than it is to criticize or condemn other techniques. "To each his own," as it is often said.

I wouldn't say that petrochemicals invoke some irrational or outright visceral fear in my case, it's just that I do not wish to support the petrochemical industry anymore than I need to. And I realize the hypocrisy in owning and driving a vehicle, using plastics, and buying food which has 10 calories of oil in it for every calorie I eat, but I figure one can put dents in the overall demand somewhere down the line. But it's basic observation to be aware that using a resource which provides the equivalent of 25,000 hours of human labor in 1 barrel outright antithesizes sustainability, and as a global race we use 87,000,000 barrels every day. In the United States alone, every person's daily life is subsidized by over 1,100 hours of oil-labor per day. Take away even a fraction of the oil, society immediately collapses. In a few short decades, possibly less, the human race will have moved beyond the age of oil. If we do not take with us the tools and knowledge of more earth-bound practices, we will be left with naught but a shadow of our past addictions. DMT can be found almost everywhere, but the ability to gather and use it as a tool for human development is not.

But I have digressed into a topic beyond the scope of this thread. Like I said, it is in no way my intention to condemn the actions or opinions of others -- self-sovereignty in action is an inborn right.

So to push the limits of human knowledge and experience, SWIM always likes to try new things when given the opportunity.

-- Wanderer
 
So SWIM just rebasified his old acetone-failed MHRB and added olive oil. As he added it and shook it to get it to mix up, it struck him that the pH and aqueous nature of the solution are conducive to saponification of fatty acids (turning it to soap). The process of making soap is essentially the same.

There was only about 1.5 L of overall fluid (for 150g MHRB), which ended up being pretty viscous. The oil was not separating. So SWIM put everything into a 1 gallon jug and added more water. Since saponification happens at higher temperatures, SWIM decided to try and keep the fluid cool. Additionally, SWIM added quite a bit of salt to the solution to try and reduce the emulsification. There is now a visible layer of rather opaque oil and MHRB water. Whether or not the oil has saponified or not is unknown. If it has, SWIM will have to pulverize it and extract with more oil or acetone, obviously resulting in yield loss.

Perhaps terpenes and esters are superior not only in their greater volatility, but in their resistance to saponification as well. SWIM will report with his findings.

-- Wanderer
 
Green Entity says that olive oil is definitely harder to work with because of the thick viscosity. He has to help the FASW separate by poking it with a stick.

The thing with petro chems is that no matter if one wears a solvent mask or does pulls outside, one will still be breathing some of the fumes...... and just because they do not leave a residue when evaporated on their own, how does one know for sure that it does not end up in the final product? The Blue Entity remembers with most of his naptha or xylene extracted stuff that when he smoked it, it felt a bit like he had just huffed gas or paint thinner or something....and this is even after drying it out for days and chopping it into a fine powder to make sure none was trapped in the crystals.

He thinks the food grade extracted stuff is much easier on the body during the trip and also the experience is much easier to remember.
 
biopsylo said:
In fact, if one was really in a pinch and didn't have access to any commercial chemicals, it would be possible to brew one's own acetic acid outdoors from cider or wine, distill it, and use rendered oil and wood-ash hydroxides to substitute for the store-bought chemicals. It wouldn't be perfectly pure in the end, but it would be better than an ethanolic extraction or something along those lines.
Click to expand...

making cider vinegar is not hard, nor is making potash. but "in a pinch" you happen to have a distillation apparatus, but no possibility of buying white vinegar? well if it comes to that than we will likely have many things to worry about especially our spice stash:d


Making a still is so easy... Evey one should have one...
If red necks canmmakemmoon shine and meth outa nuthin... Shucks....
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Haha, I mean yeah, they actually have to synthesize meth, whereas spice is just a simple extraction. I do recall reading that cider vinegar is made by placing a piece of bread in hard cider and then placing it outdoors near rotting fruit. Apparently the acetobacter bacteria which convert alcohol to acetic acid are found on the feet of flies which like rotting plant material. And then the old "alchemists" way of distilling was to simply wait for a hard freeze and put the vinegar outside. Because acetic acid has a lower freezing point than water, the acetic acid will stay liquid and the water will freeze to ice (freeze distillation). Alternatively, acetic acid also has a higher boiling point, so theoretically one could distill it by simply boiling off most of the water at a controlled temperature.

So as far as SWIMs recent attempt goes, it's turning out to be a bit of a mess. SWIM lost a lot of the olive oil by simply moving it from different sized vessels into other vessels. And it definitely got a bit soponified -- there are large chunks of opaque "soap" that formed from the hydroxyl ions. It's still lighter than water, though, so SWIM separated around 80% of it off (with the oil), which he has to separate again because there is still a water layer. It's really dirty looking, but nothing that can't be cleaned. SWIM will do a FASW draw tomorrow after letting it all sit and separate.

On that note, if one were to do this again, DEFINITELY use Spiceman's sodium carbonate + heat + agitation method to freebase the alkaloids. DON'T use any caustic sodas or hydroxides, as the hydroxyl ions will make soap from the oil if the temperature is too high. That being said, perhaps it is only because I used thick olive oil and I had a host of weird contaminants in my powder like loads of MgSO4, CO3, and trace amounts of acetone.

All things to keep in mind. More to come!

-- Wanderer
 
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