More HPBCD experiments:
1. Does 1:1 of DMT:HPBCD indeed work?
Can you indeed complex DMT with a lower ratio of DMT:HPBCD? In that experiment above I used excess to speed things up, but if molten it is super fast anyways. So I tried only 50 mg DMT + 400 mg HPBCD (1 : 1,1) in 600 µl water. Much more concentrated for lesser volume and nearly 1:1 regarding host-guest interaction. Mixture was heated to 80 °C, stirred for 5 min and indeed everything complexed.
So at that point 69ron was right that equimolar amounts can be used, but mixing with tools would probably take quite longer than with automated stirrer.
Next question would be, how stable is that complexation? In solution the HPBCD might form a hydrophobe cavity for the DMT, but maybe upon conformational changes DMT could be kicked out, most likely provoked if the the water needed for HPBCD solvation is manipulated.
2. Does DMT-Complexation survive Freezing?
Will the guest be kicked out of the host at any stage of the water stopping being in liquid form? Maybe the conformation of HPBCD will drastically change and show DMT the door (HPBCD is cone-shaped so there should be indeed only 1 door).
Same DMT-HPBCD-water sample from above (1:1 Ratio) was frozen and thawed. No brown oily layer on top - no white precipitation at bottom - everything stayed homogeneous.
Therefore I believe everything is still complexed.
3. Does DMT-Complexation survive water-removal?
Similar to above this could induce a conformational change that will kick DMT out of its shell.
Same DMT-HPBCD-water sample from above (Freeze-Thaw cycle test) was placed inside of a drying chamber, air light, filled with CaCl2 (drying agent). After 24 h the water was mostly evaporated, a solid residue remained. This was still waxy, as it will still have a lot of water attached. Actually with heat you can remove much more water, until it will be rock solid. But as the HPBCD was not dissolved anymore it was enough for me. 2 ml of water was put on top and heated to 80 °C. Everything dissolved with no brown oily layer on top - no whiteprecipitation at bottom - everything stayed homogeneous.
No picture here, but well it looks just as after Freeze-Thaw ...
Therefore I believe everything is still complexed.
4. Can DMT indeed be only complexed when molten?
So above I wrote this theoretical explanation of why melting DMT for complexation might be necessary:
What happens if you dont disperse the DMT unimolecular = dont melt it?
... not shown ... just stirring crystals for ages
= Complexation doesnt work.
If you would have a nanometer-microscope you would see giant ice-bergs of DMT stirred throughout the HPBCD. How would they ever get into the HPBCD barrels as solitary molecules?
Actually I did not really
stirr for ages of course. So I just wanted to be super sure and repeated it while actually
stirring for ages to just prove if it indeed never complexes when still crystalline.
1000 mg HPBCD
50 mg DMT
3 ml Water
stirred and stirred and stirred ...
And guess what happened? It complexed after 5 h :shock: :shock: Also check how the solution is completely colorless and not brown like when using molten DMT.
So apparently I need to correct whatever theory I wrote above there. When you just stirr for ages, it will indeed also complex. That stirrer was set to 800 RPM and stirred 5 h straight so it might take forever when doing by hand. But it indeed vanished! Obviously I then also needed to make a blind sample to see if that will not also just happen with regular plain water with no HPBCD added. Both shown afterwards, DMT after 5 h fully complexed without any heating (left) and after 24 h nothing happens if no HPBCD is added (right):
No HPBCD would indeed let it stirr forever without anything happening. With HPBCD after some hours it's also complexed ... Now that it indeed works to complex DMT without making some unimolecular dispersion I tried it with Bufotenin. Same procedure with also 50 mg:
Left: Bufotenin in HPBCD solution before mixing
Middle: Bufotenin in HPBCD solution after 20 min stirring without heating
Right: Bufotenin in 100 % water after 24 h
As you can see also Bufotenin is complexed without any heating, directly from Freebase Crystals. Note how the colour of the water gets yellow upon. As a blind check Bufotenin in just water without HPBCD will not vanish at all even after 24 h ...
Conclusion:
So apparently all that huge text wall above seems not entirely true. You can indeed complex Tryptamines straight from the Freebase Crystals into HPBCD solution. But how would that work? Now just again some speculation, that might explain this, while still fitting quite well to the results:
Probably a heterogeneous process like DMT molecules migrating directly from a crystal lattice into the HPBCD is quite unlikely. They have to first be dispersed into the medium to be able to be picked up by HPBCD. Now why it still could work this way is that solubility of any Tryptamines will never be truly 0 in water. There is always a really small fraction of molecules that get dissolved. Normally that is negligibly low and we dont notice it. Also while stirring as hell there would be a constant migration of Freebase DMT into water, it just would normally stop immediately as solubility of Freebase in water is obviously still close to 0. But upon dissolving due to the high concentration of HPBCD it gets absorbed into the HPBCD nearly instantly. Therefore that process can never reach equilibrium of DMT Freebase dissolved in the water. Therefore as DMT is constantly removed (by HPBCD) it means more and more DMT will be dissolved - and complexed sequentially - over time. After 5 h that process run to a complete and with 100 % complexed DMT.
A kind of cautious proof could be the Bufotenin experiment:
Because of that 5-OH-group solubility in water is way higher. Still negligible in neutral medium, but it will dissolve much faster. While also being absorbed instantly by the HPBCD, it means the speed of that hypothetical process would be much faster. And indeed: After 20 min all Bufotenin was already complexed, in contrast to the 5 h of DMT.
Obviously now while all that is still more something for scientific curiousity and rather has no direct usage, that process would be extremely interesting for Salvinorin, to finally make a non-smoking route that is not quidding. Spoiler Alert:
It does not work ... Maybe Solubility of Salvinorin is even way lower and therefore that process is infinitely slow or HPBCD is not big enough for Salvinorin, needing more like HP-gamme-CD.
5. Bioassay:
Now that's quite sad and therefore the question remains, what does all that help with Tryptamines? Is their bioavailability indeed better? Would it have any improvement on the pharmacokinetics? Obviously it only makes sense when you know what to compare to. I have just 1x made some nasal 50 mg I believe, effect was not too strong and it was burning uncomfortably ... Then I did 70 mg of DMT Fumarate in a Nosespray and it was rather the same. 30 min duration with 20 min of annoying nose-burn. That's the only stuff I can compare too :?
DMT-HPBCD Nosespray:
- 50 mg DMT
- 400 mg HPBCD
- 600 µl water
- complexed at 80 °C
- diluted to 1200 µl for better dosage
- filled into Nosespray, which is ~ 73 mg water per spray = 73 µl
- 1,2 ml = 16x Spraying, with 3 mg complexed DMT per spray
Effects:
Actually effects are feeled only 5 seconds after spraying easily. Also it still burned quite a LOT initially ... but most of the burning fades really fast. I would say first 15 seconds are really strong burning, but then the residual time burning is on like 10-20 % of that strength. Not the best, but definetly not too uncomfortable.
8 x Sprays = 25 mg
strong body high
10 x Sprays = 30 mg
very strong body high, like on Ketamine
still not much OEV / CEV
Nose felt like a little glued together, like a film making a stiff coating on your nose. Still with a finger it does not feel sticky.
I was impatient and did all the 16 x Sprays ...
16 x Sprays = 50 mg
visual distortions started and I had to lay back and felt a little bit sedated and like I had to close my eyes.
Still CEVs were not toooo strong ...
At T + 15 min nose started to not feel any burning anymore
At T + 20 min whole experience was nearly over
Conclusion:
Well not too sure what to conclude. Did it have an effect? YES and not too bad. Probably stronger than the 70 mg Fumarate that I did back in the days. But ... that is definetly not enough to really distinguish between those 2 experiences.
Burning in the nose is strong when administered directly ... I can just say it I had the feeling it was fading faster than with the Fumarate. So IF the complexation has an effect, maybe it speeds up transportation of DMT to the mucus membranes, that will take up the Spice and therefore stop its irritation to the mucus membrane.
About effect strength, as I said not sure if bioavailability therefore indeed was raised? Just burning ceased faster. Still if I would extrapolate the effects to a really high level experience, then the nose-burn would indeed be more than annoying and make it impossible to really enjoy that experience. Obviously that is just a problem of the nose-spray method and sublingual would not have this problem. But as I was interested in checking nose-spray possibilities, that was my way of testing.
If burning would have not been a thing - like when sublingually administered, then it might have actually quite cool. But still dont know if strength would have been just equal if doing without HPBCD. Maybe will check that sublingual method both ways in future ...
