Occupy Nexus

[jbark]

Thank god I dont have children, and never will have to put them through the insanity of this world.

Well that's one perspective. I guess...

i'm really not trying to rile you up House, and i apologize if I have. But every idea needs a counterpoint, and all I have seen here and in my surroundings is blind unquestioning support... there is more than one herd, you know.

 

[joedirt]

What? That is the way that I feel. It does nothing to sit around and talk about these things unless you are informing the people who don't see the point.

I have directly experienced how ****** up this society is and I have nothing to lose therefore I am supporting this 100%

People who have it well off just sit there and complain that nothing is going to happen without doing ANYTHING. It doesn't help! Awareness and the power of the people is the only thing that will.

I basically agree with this. How many years have we all been sitting and bitching about how the system should change? I mean it's time to put up or shut up. We have many thousands of people all around the globe standing up NOW....should we wait for the next revolution just because we don't agree with everyone's views this time around? Of course not. There may not be another real opportunity like this in our lifetimes. I mean seriously there really might not be.

Everyone in this movement won't agree on the goals and expecting them too is totally unrealistic. Do all democrats share the same views? What about all republicans? The point is there isn't ONE thing wrong. This is finally a world wide revolution that is taking place to say the system is broke and we want a real fix. Maybe it will fizzle out, but it's going to fizzle out with me supporting it.

And please, please, please...if you at all believe in some of the ideals of this movement then do any thing to help out. Just donate some canned food if you can't protest. Even just talking about it on public forums or with family members is helping. Not to be overly cliche, but I'm pretty sure we are all in the 99% on this board.

Peace.

 

[EverGreen]

Fundamentally the bulk of the movement is seeking the dismantling of the capitalist system bringing about total social reform.

The things is... people are blaming capitalism, but that's just another lie/spin that was created by the governments - it's their scapegoat, just like "the speculators are to blame".

The truth is, it's not capitalism that is to blaim, because under captilism corporations are allowed to fail. So... What it really is is socialisim for corporations with at the core corruption of government.

Just wanted to state that fact cause many people are operating under the wrong assumtion, and as a result misdirecting their pitchforks. Their pitchforks shouldn't be aimed at Wallstreet, they should be aimed at Washington and the white house. Those are the ones selling us out, Wallstreet is just the one "buying the drug on offer" by the government, not commendable either of course, but they are not the core of the problem.

In my opinion these movements need to get their facts straight before something is gonna really happen. They're attacking the wrong enemy.

 

[۩]

Anyone who says the peaceful occupancy movement doesnt have their facts straight or doesnt have the proper goals clearly has not been paying attention. This tactic works when enough people get involved. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Do you not remember Egypt? Spain?

 

[joedirt]

Fundamentally the bulk of the movement is seeking the dismantling of the capitalist system bringing about total social reform.

The things is... people are blaming capitalism, but that's just another lie/spin that was created by the governments - it's their scapegoat, just like "the speculators are to blame".

The truth is, it's not capitalism that is to blaim, because under captilism corporations are allowed to fail. So... What it really is is socialisim for corporations with at the core corruption of government.

Just wanted to state that fact cause many people are operating under the wrong assumtion, and as a result misdirecting their pitchforks.
Their pitchforks shouldn't be aimed at Wallstreet, they should be aimed at Washington and the white house. Those are the ones selling us out, Eallstreet is just the one "using the drug on offer" by the government, not commendable either of course, but it's not the core of the problem.

In my opinion these movements need to get their facts straight before something is gonna really happen. They're attacking the wrong enemy.

Well the sign I like to hold says, "Subsidies are corporate socialism" so I do party agree.

However, there are some very real faults with capitalism as it is. Capitalism depends upon the continued..and ever greater, consumption of resources. This simply can't continue to work for very much longer....maybe 50-100 years before the planet hits the tipping point with many ecosystems.

Personally I think the main focus needs to be on removing business from government. Max campaign donations at $1000/person. No corporations. Just that alone would at least give the power back to the people. There are a lot of good ideas like this floating around in the trenches.

 

[Pandora]

Goals and agendas are just beginning to coalesce. There's a chance that charasmatic leaders could emerge.

That's the thing about this whole Occupy movement. It truly is grassroots. Not some fake, planned thing organized through churches, think tanks and other shadowed political groups (shadowed in that their surface agenda does not appear to be political) like the so-called Tea Party.

This is one reason it is growing so fast and is becoming worldwide. It's the real deal. Nothing may come of it, I don't know. But, I'm not ready to condemn it out of hand for being real and in its' infancy stages.

Peace & Love

 

[jbark]

Anyone who says the peaceful occupancy movement doesnt have their facts straight or doesnt have the proper goals clearly has not been paying attention. This tactic works when enough people get involved. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Do you not remember Egypt? Spain?

I have yet to hear ANYONE, yourself included, list the goals of this movement - beyond of course a vague let's overthrow wall street and bring the 1% crashing to the ground. Correct me if I am wrong, please - I am dying to believe in this movement...

PS - pandora, you do me a great disservice if you are inferring that I am condemning this movement...

 

[۩]

Youre missing the point, and I Am done trying to convey to you what this means.

 

[joedirt]

goals:

1) Free and fair elections. Public funding only, with real debates like we were taught in high school and college with debate teams and references and relevant issues that are strictly adhered to. 2) Get the corporate money out of elections. Create public election channels that would be the venue for debate and campaign education. No paid advertising on corporate media channels. With public funding and public campaign channels there will be no need to solicit special interest or corporate campaign funds. By doing this our elected officials will not be “owned”, or owe favors to special interest groups or corporations. 3) After election there should be no financial or gifting requirements to meet privately with elected officials. We realize that elected officials need to meet with experts when evaluating new legislation. When these meetings or consultations are necessary, representatives from all organizations that feel they have an interest in the pending legislation should have the option to send official representatives of their choice to a venue where all interested parties will debate the pending legislation so that the elected officials can properly understand the concerns of all parties both public and private. 4) Televised, public and transparent investigations into the financial meltdown, mortgage derivatives, who knew what, when and why the decisions were made to bail out private institutions with taxpayer money, what the taxpayers are getting in return, and what is being done to ensure that this type of situation does not happen again. 5) Televised, public and transparent investigations into Social Security funding, history of that funding, how those funds were managed and borrowed from, and a truthful assessment of how much actual liquid assets are available to continue dividend payments. Replacement of all funding that has been borrowed from the Social Security Fund and a secure low risk investment policy to help grow those funds.
6) Foreign relations that will allow the US to compete in World Trade. For too long we have had to compete with countries that do not have to pay living wages and benefits, provide safe and sanitary working conditions, or operate their corporations in an environmentally responsible manner. The cost of producing goods while at the same time taking Care of the people that allow them to continue to operate and keep our environment clean is expensive. We will never be able to compete, and will continue to lose jobs to countries that do not provide these basic human and environmental conditions. Corporations will continue to move their manufacturing centers to these countries and American workers will continue to lose jobs, and the ones they have will continue to pay smaller and smaller wages.

Forum Post: List of Goals for Occupy Wall Street | OccupyWallSt.org

List of Goals for Occupy Wall Street; 1) Free and fair elections. Public funding only, with real debates like we were taught in high school and college with debate teams

occupywallst.org

Peace.

 

[vovin]

All I have to say is this:

http://digg.com/news/politics/the_silent_majority

The general theme is that corporations should have 0 say in the establishment of laws or any government process. Corporate Lobbying is just a workaround for bribery and should be outlawed. Corporations should pay their taxes and should get no taxbreaks. Plus Free tacos Tuesday. There are a lot of groups that have latched on to OWS and added their own agendas and I think that has muddied the waters and thus why a general theme to end greed is prevalent and the actual process of doing that can vary as the is now a International movement.

#Note: many of us here at the nexus do not take offense when one of the others play devils advocate. We realize that for us to truly understand our view and be able to express it correctly we must be willing to hear and see all perspectives. While the debate may get a little meaty at times rarely does anger sway our reason.... right?

 

[jamie]

If you have a movemnt happening near you go there and talk to the people there..it is not just one issue trying to be adressed..it is many many issues and many many people are involved in this movement. There has never in our lifetimes been ANYTHING like this on such a large scale. It is naive to assume that a concensus on objectives etc will be reached so soon. I have been to the occupy Vancouver site and I can assure you Jbark everything you have outlined in your posts here these people are well aware of and it is something they are trying to address. The problem is the large diversity of people who are all basically just fed up..it will take time for a clear set of demands to manifest IMO becasue the situation is much more complex than your adverage protest.

 

[EverGreen]

Anyone who says the peaceful occupancy movement doesnt have their facts straight or doesnt have the proper goals clearly has not been paying attention. This tactic works when enough people get involved. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Do you not remember Egypt? Spain?

You're right, I haven't been paying much attention at all, compared to most people probably at least

All I know is that there's a popular opinion in the movement that capitalism is to blame for this mess, which isn't true. Sure yes, capitalism isn't perfect... But it's not the cause of the problem we're currently in.

Anyway, I sure hope this movement will grow into a monster that will devour this rotten system we currently live in and change it for the better.

 

[vovin]

evergreen the media is mixing that up they are saying modern capitalism (Reaganomics) began this by loosening regulations on banks and financial firms to stimulate the economy. Capitalism worked well for America till they started manipulating it.

 

[jbark]

If you have a movemnt happening near you go there and talk to the people there..it is not just one issue trying to be adressed..it is many many issues and many many people are involved in this movement. There has never in our lifetimes been ANYTHING like this on such a large scale. It is naive to assume that a concensus on objectives etc will be reached so soon. I have been to the occupy Vancouver site and I can assure you Jbark everything you have outlined in your posts here these people are well aware of and it is something they are trying to address. The problem is the large diversity of people who are all basically just fed up..it will take time for a clear set of demands to manifest IMO becasue the situation is much more complex than your adverage protest.

Thank you Fractal, you seem to understand what i am getting at. I am reassured to hear they are aware of what is lacking and what is needed and are addressing the problem.

My fear however is that all these disparate interests and the "diversity of people" and their individual beefs may undermine an emerging central goal, be there one.

i must say though, pointing out a problem and suggesting solutions is NOT an attack. I fear for this movement if everyone is so gung-ho that they will not bring reason to the table, and address the weaknesses and endeavour to organize around attainable, common goals. It should be simple, but ZEAL appears to be the enemy:

Are we so far gone and so far into the propaganda of this movement that ANY criticism is unwelcomed and vituperated?

I hope not. There is a long road ahead. Let's build it and straight and narrow and focused, so that it has IMPACT and is not a little sociological blip 6 months for now.

JBArk

PS it is a sad state i fear when only the voices of unquestioning agreement are listened to. Is this not, in part, what people are protesting?

 

[universecannon]

"The mainstream media continues to play down the Occupy phenomenon, critiquing its lack of specific demands. Specific demands are pointless, because the entire political, social, and economic system in which we exist has rotted out from the inside. Demands would suggest that there is a way to reform the present system, but no reformist initiative is possible. "

well i don't know about demands being entirely pointless at this point in time, but pinchbeck has a pretty good point here imo^



one guys take on why it might not necessarily need a leader:

"But aside from the fact that many of the participants have stated clearly what they want, their detractors miss the point: decentralization is its greatest strength and most profound feature. And this decentralization was made possible historically and practically by technology.

Whereas once there were figureheads and men and women with megaphones fighting the power, now there are waves. The protestors don't seek a leader, but consider themselves collectively as a leader of a new way of thinking. The movement is the leader, in service to its subjects.

This is possible only because our sense of self is changing; growing more accustomed to connectivity through the Internet and globalization, we have begun to define ourselves by our interactions with others, not merely our own pursuits. Self is composed of a vast matrix of others instead of being segregated into Ones.

Of course this has its consequences too -- as many media theorists have pointed out; we can become more isolated by thinking the rest of the world is in the computer rather than real. But Occupy Wall Street represents this new sense of self at its most human.

Connecting online before and during the protests, with each other as well as the world, Occupy Wall Street occupies real space, and finds solidarity in virtual space with those who can't be there.

And this connectedness has given us a vast sense of equality that the protestors want borne out on a global, economic, and political level.

We're interconnected enough to know what others need. We don't need to be "represented" anymore, because we can actually speak to one another. "Connor Habib

 

[jbark]

"The mainstream media continues to play down the Occupy phenomenon, critiquing its lack of specific demands. Specific demands are pointless, because the entire political, social, and economic system in which we exist has rotted out from the inside. Demands would suggest that there is a way to reform the present system, but no reformist initiative is possible. "

well i don't know about demands being entirely pointless at this point in time, but pinchbeck has a pretty good point here imo^



one guys take on why it might not necessarily need a leader:

"But aside from the fact that many of the participants have stated clearly what they want, their detractors miss the point: decentralization is its greatest strength and most profound feature. And this decentralization was made possible historically and practically by technology.

Whereas once there were figureheads and men and women with megaphones fighting the power, now there are waves. The protestors don't seek a leader, but consider themselves collectively as a leader of a new way of thinking. The movement is the leader, in service to its subjects.

This is possible only because our sense of self is changing; growing more accustomed to connectivity through the Internet and globalization, we have begun to define ourselves by our interactions with others, not merely our own pursuits. Self is composed of a vast matrix of others instead of being segregated into Ones.

Of course this has its consequences too -- as many media theorists have pointed out; we can become more isolated by thinking the rest of the world is in the computer rather than real. But Occupy Wall Street represents this new sense of self at its most human.

Connecting online before and during the protests, with each other as well as the world, Occupy Wall Street occupies real space, and finds solidarity in virtual space with those who can't be there.

And this connectedness has given us a vast sense of equality that the protestors want borne out on a global, economic, and political level.

We're interconnected enough to know what others need. We don't need to be "represented" anymore, because we can actually speak to one another. "Connor Habib

So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"? Do you not see the flaw in this? What will replace it? We do not live in a totalitarian regime, we do not live in an oppressive dictatorship, we do not live in a self-serving oligarchy (yes, i know, I hear many of you protesting and asserting that we DO, but by strict definition, WE DO NOT, we live in a democracy). What is everyone proposing we replace the "system" with? It is naive and self destructive to want to simply tear something down without at LEAST proposing a viable alternative, and one that in this case would have the support of the rest of the world, like Egypt did, as Lybia is doing - this IS the big difference. They are not in the same zoo, let alone the same family!

To rail against the powers that be without a centralized organization, and a clear ATTAINABLE goal, I am afraid is a railing doomed to failure.

But there is hope, IF they organize. Am I alone in this thinking?

JBArk

 

[vovin]

So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"?

Yes and I would gladly give my life if it would achieve that goal. I would hope more here in this place sees that the world you dream could be yours if you want it.

 

[jbark]

So are you saying the central goal, the overriding IDEA, is to overthrow the entire government and the economy and the "system"?

Yes and I would gladly give my life if it would achieve that goal. I would hope more here in this place sees that the world you dream could be yours if you want it.

So this, Vovin, is the ends itself? You don't care what happens after? Sorry, I don't get it. Profoundly. What world do you dream of, specifically, and what if everyone is dreaming a different world than you?

To me it's like saying I am going to jump off this cliff, and I'll worry about bringing a parachute later, when the dust settles... :?:

 

[jamie]

If you have a movemnt happening near you go there and talk to the people there..it is not just one issue trying to be adressed..it is many many issues and many many people are involved in this movement. There has never in our lifetimes been ANYTHING like this on such a large scale. It is naive to assume that a concensus on objectives etc will be reached so soon. I have been to the occupy Vancouver site and I can assure you Jbark everything you have outlined in your posts here these people are well aware of and it is something they are trying to address. The problem is the large diversity of people who are all basically just fed up..it will take time for a clear set of demands to manifest IMO becasue the situation is much more complex than your adverage protest.

Thank you Fractal, you seem to understand what i am getting at. I am reassured to hear they are aware of what is lacking and what is needed and are addressing the problem.

My fear however is that all these disparate interests and the "diversity of people" and their individual beefs may undermine an emerging central goal, be there one.

i must say though, pointing out a problem and suggesting solutions is NOT an attack. I fear for this movement if everyone is so gung-ho that they will not bring reason to the table, and address the weaknesses and endeavour to organize around attainable, common goals. It should be simple, but ZEAL appears to be the enemy:

Are we so far gone and so far into the propaganda of this movement that ANY criticism is unwelcomed and vituperated?

I hope not. There is a long road ahead. Let's build it and straight and narrow and focused, so that it has IMPACT and is not a little sociological blip 6 months for now.

JBArk

PS it is a sad state i fear when only the voices of unquestioning agreement are listened to. Is this not, in part, what people are protesting?

I was actaully just there a day ago and will be back in the next 2 days most likely..and there was some obvious disagreements still taking place while trying to come to a concensus concerning what demands/objectives etc were to be set for the occupy vancouver movement..some people did not like the fact that there were organizers with microphones speaking(they wanted to be rid of that heirarchy in they're own words) while others felt that even comming to a concensus at this time over specifics was a rediculous goal with so many people and for now it should be more generalized..I think they are getting somewhere though and this was only the second day..

One guy got really vocal and was yelling overtop of the microphone in the crowd becasue he disagreed with the approach the speaker was taking and he wanted a turn to speak..in turn the police surrounded this man as if he were some wild animal and then some other guy started to flip out about the police surrounding this guy and that basically became the focus of the next 4 or 5 minutes..and the police sort of scuffled back to the back of the crowd..but it was unnerving to say the least..

People are just so fed up and that is the real issue..there are so many problems trying to be adressed by so many people from different walks of life..this is not all just hippies..this was families there with they're children, punks, hippies, homeless people, college students, business men in suits and ties..all of them just sick of the way things are. That is the real issue IMO..people are just sick and tired and probabily dont even know what else to do but show up there. That is the impression I got.

 

[joedirt]

I certainly do NOT want to overthrow the entire current system. That would be catastrophic beyond imagination. If we broke down the banking system literally millions, perhaps hundreds of millions would die from starvation. Anyone thinking that total anarchy would be awesome is being naive. I have not met very many advocating this...but I have met a few. I try to talk reason to them and get them to see another way.

However, I do want immediate and drastic change to how our government works. I want a separation of government and state and I want us to actually apply separation of church and state. Our government has been bought and paid for buy big business. This isn't even a debate is it? I mean it's all perfectly out in the open.

I don't know any other way to force this issue than what you are seeing. If nothing else it's bringing a lot of awareness to the issues that many people care about. This alone could potentially reflect itself in policy making in the coming years.

I also think the decentralized strategy is the best bet for long term success of this movement. This strategy will allow them to keep it going long enough to keep it a relevant topic for politicians and policy makers.