On the humanity of gurus

[ArgonPrime]

If he knew timewave zero was more or less mathematically disproven while at the same time promoting it, that's not a great look.

..for a former drug dealer? He did what he had to do at the times. I don't believe Terence was after that kind of lifestyle at all, but he wanted to travel the globe, so there was an actual need to make some bank.

Terence is just a human in the end, like anyone else. When I took him down from the pedestal, my relationship with the guy became much more compassionate. He had many problems and struggled with them for years. Somehow, I can see a scared little child in him now. His bad trip was most likely there by design. It was a crossroad on his path, and he chose a certain direction.

That coming from you is surprising. Was Tota Puri a "human in the end, as anyone else"? Was Ramakrishna? Was Anandamayi Ma?

There are people who have been to the non dual state of nirvikalpa samadhi and returned. They went there by the grace of Devi, not by some smoked crystals. Terence thought of Kundalini as something that was the "poor mans way" of going there (poor in the sense of someone not having access to the right drugs) but as you said there is little he brought back from it as actual knowledge, whereas I got nearly all the answers I needed from Hindu and Buddhist lectures. Yes, you will have to dig for it, it takes time. But those Gurus with their Sadhaks over the centuries brought pieces together that shape a greater understanding of the puzzle we're facing.

 

[northape]

That coming from you is surprising. Was Tota Puri a "human in the end, as anyone else"? Was Ramakrishna? Was Anandamayi Ma?

There are people who have been to the non dual state of nirvikalpa samadhi and returned. They went there by the grace of Devi, not by some smoked crystals. Terence thought of Kundalini as something that was the "poor mans way" of going there (poor in the sense of someone not having access to the right drugs) but as you said there is little he brought back from it as actual knowledge, whereas I got nearly all the answers I needed from Hindu and Buddhist lectures. Yes, you will have to dig for it, it takes time. But those Gurus with their Sadhaks over the centuries brought pieces together that shape a greater understanding of the puzzle we're facing.

Yes, they are all human from our perspective. You need to reach their state to see otherwise. Nothing is as it seems in this place. I think all the wisdom traditions and countless saints are miles ahead of any psychedelics. You can read numerous stories about them ingesting psychoactive substances and being unaffected. Any doubt here is our own limitation and stuckness in the rut of the materialist paradigm. People think that they are beyond it all, yet they go shopping in a car and scream when someone cuts them off. We should be honest with ourselves about where we are. Yes, you can't judge your maturity, but given your life, you can make a pretty good guess.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Yes, they are all human from our perspective.

That's where they started, but if you get to live 250 years as Tota Puri or you get to levitate and be on high energy without food for weeks as Anandamayi Ma, it gets hard to view them as human anymore, unless you'd want to view them as frauds which is also hard to sustain if you look into it. Also there is Gurus who get wrapped into some fabric and thrown into Ganges alive claiming that they can leave the body at will, wanting to leave within the substrate of that river. This is actually gruesome murder from western perspective, but it is a real practice. Imagine that. Imagine the confidence it takes to have that done to you by your deciples (even at old age).

In case you haven't heard the story of the meeting between Tota Puri and Ramakrishna I highly recommend a read. Totapuri Maharaj| Guru of Ramakrishna Paramhamsan

F.E.: During my research I came across some tantric on yt talking about one of the Mahavidyas tendency to put someone on her lap out of her empathic attitude (I believe it was Baglamukhi will have to find that part). Then I remembered one of Terences trip reports where he stated that he was taken on the lap by some giant goddess who said something smirky along the lines of "How do you like that cowboy" to him. That is it what it really boils down to if you don't have a Guru or tantric/vedic knowledge. You get to meet an entity which can grant you liberation, but all you can transact with it, is being taken to some toddler levels theme park ride experience on her lap. That's because you are dealing with intelligence here, not with mere magick. If you went for a theme park ride, they won't or maybe even cant give you more than that by design.

 

[northape]

They are HUMAN, period. Why? Because you are one. You can't escape your own mind no matter what stories you believe in. When your reference point shifts from the human body, you may see what these beings really are. At this point it's just your speculation. Don't believe everything you think, as they say. No need to be so invested in any particular story, reality is beyond them all.

if you get to live 250 years as Tota Puri or you get to levitate and be on high energy without food for weeks as Anandamayi Ma, it gets hard to view them as human anymore, unless you'd want to view them as frauds which is also hard to sustain if you look into it.

Note, I never once used the word fraud - it's your own doubt. For me, living long or levitating is not something supernatural. It doesn't mean that humans can't reach these feats. Don't get stuck on your cultural brainwashing about what reality is. I feel we have capabilities far beyond what we can imagine. Sadly, our modern culture went in a different direction and got stuck exploring the external world.

Further, it's not about siddhis. There are plenty of accounts of people attaining siddhis without any liberation in sight. I guess it's just a dormant function of our body. I'm much more interested in love and wisdom. That's my benchmark for buddhahood, not some powers that have no real meaning.

You get to meet an entity which can grant you liberation, but all you can transact with it, is being taken to some toddler levels theme park ride experience on her lap. That's because you are dealing with intelligence here, not with mere magick. If you went for a theme park ride, they won't or maybe even cant give you more than that by design.

No one can grant you liberation. It's just your wishful thinking. The same way I once thought that psychedelics are a panacea and, given one proper mystical experience, you can get free. That's not how the world works. These beings are omnipotent and benevolent beyond extreme, yet they remain aside and don't save people dying in Ukraine right now. Why? They simply can't - we have full autonomy here.

Your liberation is in your own hands. The sooner you acknowledge this fact, the better. A guru is higher than Buddha, because he gives you the teachings directly in this life, not in some higher dimension. Then you apply them with full faith in the tradition. If your merit (maturity) is enough, you'll get the result.

What intelligence? Why separate something when nothing is separate ultimately? Man, you're weaving a story here, or let's say a philosophical worldview. Yet, you are not free and are fully biased. None of your stories can come even close to reality. Better relax and sit in Silence. That's a better use of your and my time, honestly. I love you, stranger. Why? Because I love myself. We're not separate here. It's all a pure illusion.

By the way, all I wrote is just one more story. Do you see how hopeless all this is? That's why sages sit in Silence

 

[ArgonPrime]

No one can grant you liberation. It's just your wishful thinking.

I already am liberated (or cursed) in a certain way for I have seen (or got shown) Maya briefly, hence this is not my wishful thinking (I know there's more dimensions beyond Maya). At my current state I am freed from the McKennian pain of questioning "it", but I am ignited in the way a childs eyes is ignited by something fascinating to explore. Bhakti would not make sense anymore and all Sadhaks would waste their time if there was no way of getting boons, siddhis and finally liberation/Kundalini-awakening (Moksha) from your ishta devata. All the great saumya deitis worshipped in dakshinachara just as their ugra manifestations from vamachara paths can grant liberation whereas lower benevolent "half-god" entities such as Yoginis or Ghandharvas cannot pull you beyond Sahasrara (but can also give Siddhis). This is the entire design of doing Sadhana with a Guru that you are approaching a karmic equilibrium through the means of many lifetimes and once you have reached a certain threshold, one deity will burn the remaining Karma out of compassion and you are taken to a higher plane or even to non duality.

Even though there is no hatred involved you are indifferent to the fate of an ant as the ant is indifferent to the fate of yours. If you'd want to build a road, you'd kill the ant hill, just as the ants would kill your human city to build their road and both species would have to "pay in Karma" equally for Kali loves all beings equally according to Kali-Sadhaks. The world is without mercy by design but the gods (or godliness to use Oshos terminology) are bursting of compassion. So we are too, just as children are bursting of compassion. By collisions of the ego with other egos we wear down as we age and we get numb. The most important thing about kundalini awakening (in opposition to psychedelic experiences) is that you get the child back to some extent and it stays sharp, it gets hardened against wearing down effects of ego collisions for you simply do not collide anymore. Everything becomes fluid, conversations, events, even your movements become lighter in a way. In fact I have not had a single bad interaction with another human (or animal) since my awakening. This is the greatest siddhi. You snake charm yourself into a more resonating/loving state and then it starts to snake charm others.

None of your stories can come even close to reality.

Yet the entire design of being incarnated in reality substrate evolves around telling a story. For every ant colony there is one to tell. They say Bhairava will show up at your last breath and play a video summary of all your lived karmic lives. So the godliness, whatever it is seems to be, seems to love to have itself mirrored and reflected back as sort of "written art" with the pen being your life. Art is the way of reaching back to the devine with the means of a mortal. The greatest of artists are children for they do not seperate between art forms. They sing, dance, draw, and construct (sand castles) without calling themselfes a singer, or a dancer, or a builder. Maybe this is how we are supposed to be. Maybe this is why the DMT space often reminds one of a circus. A circus is the embodiment of that child like reactive playfulness towards life, even towards death, as these circus artists are actually quite daring with theirs.

 

[blig-blug]

Please give the Attitude Page - DMT-Nexus Wiki a read, particularly the "no preaching" guideline. It's fine to state your opinion on spiritual matters, but it must be presented as your personal opinion no matter how true it is. Talking in absolutes about these topics has no place in the Nexus.

 

[northape]

I already am liberated (or cursed) in a certain way for I have seen (or got shown) Maya briefly, hence this is not my wishful thinking (I know there's more dimensions beyond Maya). At my current state I am freed from the McKennian pain about questioning "it", but I am ignited in the way a childs eyes is ignited by something fascinating to explore. Bhakti would not make sense anymore and all Sadhaks would waste their time if there was no way of getting boons, siddhis and finally liberation/Kundalini-awakening (Moksha) from your ishta devata. All the great saumya deitis worshipped in dakshinachara just as their ugra manifestations from vamachara paths can grant liberation whereas lower benevolent "half-god" entities such as Yoginis or Ghandharvas cannot pull you beyond Sahasrara (but can also give Siddhis). This is the entire design of doing Sadhana with a Guru that you are approaching a karmic equilibrium through the means of many lifetimes and once you have reached a certain threshold, one deity will burn the remaining Karma out of compassion and you are taken to a higher plane or even to non duality.

Even though there is no hatred involved you are indifferent to the fate of an ant as the ant is indifferent to the fate of yours. If you'd want to build a road, you'd kill the ant hill, just as the ants would kill your human city to build their road and both species would have to "pay in Karma" equally for Kali loves all beings equally according to Kali-Sadhaks. The world is without mercy by design but the gods (or godliness to use Oshos terminology) are bursting of compassion. So we are too, just as children are bursting of compassion. By collisions of the ego with other egos we wear down as we age and we get numb. The most important thing about kundalini awakening (in opposition to psychedelic experiences) is that you get the child back to some extent and it stays sharp, it gets hardened against wearing down effects of ego collisions for you simply do not collide anymore. Everything becomes fluid, conversations, events, even your movements become lighter in a way. In fact I have not had a single bad interaction with another human (or animal) since my awakening. This is the greatest siddhi. You snake charm yourself into a more resonating/loving state and then it starts to snake charm others.

Yet the entire design of being incarnated in reality substrate evolves around telling a story. For every ant colony there is one to tell. They say Bhairava will show up at your last breath and play a video summary of all your lived karmic lives. So the godliness, whatever it is seems to be, seems to love to have itself mirrored and reflected back as sort of "written art" with the pen being your life. Art is the way of reaching back to the devine with the means of a mortal. The greatest of artists are children for they do not seperate between art forms. They sing, dance, draw, and construct (sand castles) without calling themselfes a singer, or a dancer, or a builder. Maybe this is how we are supposed to be. Maybe this is why the DMT space often reminds one of a circus. A circus is the embodiment of that child like reactive playfulness towards life, even towards death, as these circus artists are actually quite daring with theirs.

I don't know what to say, really. Yes, our stories are all we have, and that's how we make sense of the world. You have your own understanding, and from my position, it's just as valid as anything. I guess if you have strong faith in something, it'll lead you all the way.
We're living in dark times, so all the ancient knowledge and practices are here to be used. Just go for something that resonates with you.

For example, when you want to visit sacred places in Nepal, there are many options. They can all help you reach the same places, yet they are all different. Your experience of the pilgrimage would be influenced by the path you choose, too. Still, the end result is the same.

Life is a wonder. Create stories, make mistakes, die, and be reborn. We're all going in the same direction. God pulls us in just as gravity pulls an apple. No need to resist the flow - surf it instead and enjoy.

 

[ArgonPrime]

It's fine to state your opinion on spiritual matters, but it must be presented as your personal opinion no matter how true it is.

Thread got split therefore I'm not sure you refer to my post, but I'm not preaching for I wouldn't even know of what dogma there would be to convey to anyone other than to look within. If looking within is preaching, then the DMT molecule itself is a missionary. I am not hindu, buddhist or even remotely asian by any means, but my awakening happend by blindfolding with thc, hence it makes sense for me to research the realms of Kundalini and to advance from there. The hindu and buddhist traditions are the most elaborate descriptions of what happens in Kundalini yoga practices (which is basically a set of methods of hacking the pineal gland to produce DMT instead of Melatonin). Hence I'm researching after gods/devatas for they are said to be the guardians of Kundalini and I'm also in the realm of chemicals trying to make both fit as flipsides of one coin. Does that make sense? After all these kind of god entities (hindu, aztec, egypt types) seem to appear to athiests aswell as to religios people in DMT sessions. So there is something deeper to investigate than mere selfsuggested delusion of stoned worshippers. They must be a sort of interface. Or as Osho once putted: "If the horses think of a god they think of a horse god"

I guess if you have strong faith in something, it'll lead you all the way.

Maybe it has something to do with imagination. Maybe this is a more fitting term because faith certainly is product of it to some extent. But one could also argue that imagination itself is a fruit we pick from the DMT-tree. This was also the direction Terence was leaning towards. That the great mystics, explorers and so forth of the past (Leonardo Da Vinci f.e.) were heavily inspired by DMT experiences either in dreaming states or induced by substance or induced by Kundalini.

So if the hindu/buddhists have the most advanced knowledge of how to map out at least some directions in this hyperspace realm, why would I want to restrict myself to anecdotal reviews of the "Dude, I talked to some frog at a space station and ate the moon" type. These entities are most likely part of some universal conciousness interface stage where the "horsegod" and the "male-humangod" and the "female-humangod" and the "male-mantis-god" and the "female-mantis-god" and so forth all are accessable mind methods to their corresponding creatures of "calling home". I don't think we use the term religion the right way. Religion ist a human control mechanism, the opposite of spirituality (one of Terences quotes) which is also a control mechanism, just that it is a control mechanism by yourself for yourself to shelter you from the eerie conclusion that after all you will not dissolve into a sort of marriage with an all charming chess player, but into blissful nothingness.

 

[blig-blug]

It was a general warning, given how this conversation is being framed and the way it's going.

why would I want to restrict myself to anecdotal reviews

No one is asking you to limit yourself to "anecdotal reviews", but to present what you claim as your personal perspective on truth and not truth itself. Don't speak in absolutes.

As for to why: because these are the rules here. I'm sure there are many other places where you can talk about what you know to be true in absolutes, but not here.

 

[ArgonPrime]

No one is asking you to limit yourself to "anecdotal reviews", but to present what you claim as your personal perspective on truth and not truth itself. Don't speak in absolutes.

I don't actually see where I claimed an "abolute truth" maybe because I used a lot of hindu phrases, but this is actually what I am researching. I'm cross examining devine iconography from all religions to find similarities. What I found was not only remarkable, but rehaped my understanding of religion totally. Once you understand that the cabbalistic tree of life, the buddhist wheel, the egypt gods, the tantric methods and the school of sufiyah are all describing the same principle of hacking the pineal, you don't seperate them anymore and you start to see them for what they really are: As multiple language manuals to the same device.
This is broadly where I'm coming from:

There is probably also misconception involved. For example by:

They went there by the grace of Devi, not by some smoked crystals.

I'm not making a worshippers statement, but technically all occult/tantric methods are bound to Devi worship since Shiva is inert for tantrics and only accessable by his ugra form Bhairava whos sole purpose is to prepare you for the Mahavidyas (and to show that last breath movie). Western occultists such as our elites and celebrities also worship solely "witches" to gain favors (look deeper into Steve Jobs connection to Khemukhi for example), never other male occultists (such as Shiva).

So what god or heaven or Nirwana looks like is individual, you may aswell have a non concept of it. Eventually it is all down to people claiming that there is no soul. And from my perspective this has become a question only a numb person who never looked within can even ask. It is as untoughtful as like saying the water is gone after I left it in the cup standing for a week. No, it's not gone. It's just not in the freaking cup anymore. So where is it? You can't say, might be anywhere. But for sure you cannot claim it vanished. That would just be a stupid thing to say.

 

[blig-blug]

I don't actually see where I claimed an "abolute truth"

It's about talking in absolutes, not explicitly claiming an absolute truth. You're presenting many statements as true without any kind of evidence to support them. Either provide evidence or present them as your opinion.

As a random example:

[...] our elites and celebrities [...] worship [...] "witches" to gain favors

That must be either presented as your personal opinion or you must provide evidence. "Look into X" is not evidence: the burden is on you to provide it, not in your readers to look it up.
(for the specific topic above it may be better to avoid it altogether, given the "no conspiracy theories" guideline, but it applies equally to a large amount of your statements in this thread)

I'm not telling you this because I'm interested in any way in participating in this specific conversation. I'm telling you this as a mod because the way this conversation is developing is not in the spirit of the Attitude guidelines. Please follow them.

 

[northape]

I don't actually see where I claimed an "abolute truth" maybe because I used a lot of hindu phrases, but this is actually what I am researching.

You're just too into it, imo. You're so passionate and trying to find your path that it sounds like preaching. No one is going to stop you here. Just package your ideas in a more open way. That's all this forum requires

You're talking mostly about Hindu Tantra, because Vajrayana has a slightly different spin on reality. I actually prefer the Buddhist approach, because it has a failsafe of bodhicitta. It all starts from an aspiration for love and ends in a full melting into it. Otherwise, Tantra is akin to magic, and one can easily go astray, especially when powers start to manifest. Just look into witchcraft practices in Amazonian shamanism - power corrupts even the best people. It's not aimed at you specifically, just a cautionary note about this path.

 

[ArgonPrime]

It's about talking in absolutes, not explicitly claiming an absolute truth. You're presenting many statements as true without any kind of evidence to support them. Either provide evidence or present them as your opinion.

Asking me to produce "evidence" for theo-philosohpical concepts in a forum about psychedelic journeys has a beautifully absurd touch to it. However I could make use of extensive imaginery to pin point towards some hidden and unhidden connections. Anyways I'm sure there is already plenty in this forum and as I understand you don't want to mess with "the matrix", but Jobs is kind of known for his theo-eastern journeys, so one might want to have a closer look on his final (and largest) project. After all we're all adults here and I'm neither a scientist nor a preacher, just a small lantern.

You're just too into it, imo. You're so passionate and trying to find your path that it sounds like preaching.

You will find this paradoxical, but I am totally not into it. By default I'm the sherlock holmes type mentally restless white dude analyzing everything with a scope, so believers are idiots for they do the opposite. This is why I smoke weed, to calm n focus the sherlock. Now interestingly I found that the sherlock in me is not actually my ego, or is it? It is not vanity that is driving me towards the source (of knowledge) for I do not lust for (selfish) power (in opposition to empathic/protective power which I do lust for). It is knowledge by itself I lust for. There is a constant demand to fill a cup that I bow to.

Now how does a dude like this end up exploring tantric hindu stuff? It's simple. I went into the darkness until the darkness flipped from void to shelter. When the smallest of light became unbearable, I still had to light my joint no matter how painful it was. What I lit my joint with was shakti. The void I found shelter in was Kali. The THC I smoked was Parvatis vaginal residue. The video call from nature I got was Devi. The dancings light I hated for getting on my nervers for two days were the 8 Yoginis of hers. -Sherlock Holmes after about two years of research

"You scope to the root of this world. Where does it come from, where is the fountain. It will take you to the fountain. And also, wetness will disappear." -Papaji

*Disclaimer: It might be all bs. Nobody knows anything. Fire is just heat. Darkness is just the absense of light. I'm only human.

 

[blig-blug]

Asking me to produce "evidence" for theo-philosohpical concepts

Don't distort what I said. Present evidence OR present it as your opinion or belief. As there's no evidence possible for "theo-philosophical concepts", for those you must present them as your opinion or belief, which is what I said at the beginning. The tired trope about "the elites" was not any kind of philosophical statement but a statement of fact, so that's why I picked that one as an example.

Do as you wish, I neither want or need to convince you to follow the Attitude. If you persist on talking in absolutes, you'll be temporarily or permanently banned. That's all.

 

[northape]

You will find this paradoxical, but I am totally not into it. By default I'm the sherlock holmes type mentally restless white dude analyzing everything with a scope, so believers are idiots for they do the opposite. This is why I smoke weed, to calm n focus the sherlock.

How can I know you or your inner world? What I wrote in my post is how you sound from an outside perspective. That's all.

Now how does a dude like this end up exploring tantric hindu stuff? It's simple. I went into the darkness until the darkness flipped from void to shelter. When the smallest of light became unbearable, I still had to light my joint no matter how painful it was. What I lit my joint with was shakti. The void I found shelter in was Kali. The THC I smoked was Parvatis vaginal residue. The video call from nature I got was Devi. The dancings light I hated for getting on my nervers for two days were the 8 Yoginis of hers. -Sherlock Holmes after about two years of research

Hope you understand that's a story about life that you're weaving here. Don't get me wrong, I like Hindu myths and use them in a similar way. However, the name Kali is simply a pointer to a truly great Kali - the current of existence. In the same way, the word "car" points to a highly complex machine. To know the real Kali, you need to be her; no stories touch that energy, only direct experience.

You can describe the same with a different set of concepts too. Kali represents the feminine principle, but there is a masculine one too (Shiva under her feet). Further, they are just two sides of one coin and in no way separate. Look into the Uma-Maheshvara depiction of divinity or Yab-Yum images from Vajrayana. What I'm saying is that there are no absolutes in life. The real absolute lies beyond us humans and could never be reached from our perspective. Your only options are to become it or melt into it.

I see why you like Kali. You do sound electric, or from a less grand perspective, manic. Once again, it's not a diss at you, but how it looks from my perspective. Kali represents the space of existence among other things, so maybe include that in the way you write. There are two main ways to control a herd of sheep: actively control them with dogs and fences, or let them go in a place so vast that they relax by themselves. The second view is much vaster and encompasses everything, imo. Anyhow, all the best on your path.

Jai Shri Ma

 

[rkba]

Fire is just heat.

Careful now