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Oral bufotenine & scopolamine/hyoscyamine (Datura, Brugmansia, etc.)

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69ron

69ron

Rising Star
Oral bufotenine causes constant nausea. Other than that it’s a pretty nice experience, sort of like LSA without the sedative effects.

I know purgeless ayahuasca contains scopolamine from sources like Brugmansia suaveolens. That type of ayahuasca doesn’t even make you a little bit nauseated. The scopolamine effectively blocks the nausea.

I’m wondering if small doses of scopolamine from a weak Datura or Brugmansia tea would be effective at blocking the nausea caused by oral bufotenine?

Does anyone have any idea about the combination?

Scopolamine in low doses doesn’t cause mental effects and is pretty safe. It’s often prescribed for combating travel sickness. It’s effective for treating nausea at just 300 micrograms.

It’s apparently been added to some LSD in order to potentiate the effects of street acid. SWIM has come across LSD with scopolamine or atropine in it. It makes your face a little red and your eyes get super dilated and you feel a little dry. It’s actually quite a nice combination, very visual, more so than pure LSD is. The usual amount added to the acid is said to be about 20 micrograms (according to some old LSD chemists SWIM once chatted with, don’t know if it’s true or not). It doesn’t seem to be a common practice.

Would there be any danger in combining scopolamine with bufotenine? I’m sure it will effectively block the nausea.

What is the best, safest plant source of scopolamine?

NOTE: scopolamine is extremely dangerous and can be deadly. Please dot not use it without knowing what you are doing. The psychoactive effects of scopolamine are generally unpleasant, so don't try to use it to "get high". If you're not careful you could end up in the hospital or under a tombstone at a graveyard. SWIM is very cautious and will not do anything close to a psychoactive dose. He's gathering as much facts about it as possible because he plans to try it in low doses for treating motion sickness only, not for "getting high". SWIM has no intention of taking such a dangerous dose. If he determines that it's too risky he will not attempt to use it for motion sickness.
 
I read a report on Erowid here: Datura Stramonium - Erowid Exp - 'Useful as an Anti-emetic'

Here's what he says in that report
I am in the Coast Guard, assigned to a 270 foot cutter. I get seasick as hell. Dramamine doesn't work. The pills that the corpsman onboard the ship gave me didn't work. Then I found out that Scopolamine is a leading prescription drug for motion sickness, so I decided to try D. Stramonium seeds for the same effect. It works absolutely wonderfully. With a dose as small as 10 seeds, I feel no sickness whatsoever, and there are little to no side effects. The most I ever get is very slight drymouth.

I'd grind the stuff up and put it in capsules to sell commercially if it weren't for that the FDA has deemed it unfit for human consumption.
Click to expand...

He claims that 10 seeds are effective at treating motion sickness without much side effects.

In Principles of clinical toxicology By Thomas A. Gossel, J. Douglas Bricker, page 252, they state that 10 Datura Stramonium seeds contain approximately 1 mg of atropine. They state that 4-5 grams of the leaves or seeds can be fatal.

EDIT: The information in Principles of clinical toxicology is not correct. The seeds of Datura Stramonium contain 0.1-0.7% alkaloids which are mostly hyoscyamine with lesser amounts of scopolamine and only traces of atropine. I’ve seen over a dozen references that state that as a fact. Most state that the average alkaloid content of the seeds is more likely to be between 0.2 and 0.4%.

I weighed 100 Datura Stramonium seeds from several different vendors and found that the seed weight varies from 5-10 mg with the average seed weight being 7.78 mg. So 10 large seeds would weigh about 100 mg. At a maximum of 0.7% alkaloid content, we’re talking a maximum of 0.7 mg (700 micrograms) of alkaloids for 10 large seeds, not 1 mg as stated in that book above. Also that 0.7 mg would be mostly hyoscyamine and not atropine. Even so, the maximum safe dosage for hyoscyamine is 1.5 mg (1500 micrograms). For that amount you would need 21 large maximum potency seeds.

Many references I’ve found set the maximum safe dosage of Datura stramonium seeds at 10 seeds which contains roughly half the maximum safe dose of hyoscyamine.
 
doesn't the alkaloid content vary widely in the whole plant though including the seeds so it could potentially be a risky dose?
 
I'm still gathering information. I won't come to any conclusions until I'm done with the research.

I've read that the seeds do not vary that much in potency, but the leaves and flowers do. This is from an unreliable source.

From the other trip reports that I've read it seems like the psychoactive dose for Datura stramonium is more than 30 seeds, usually 60 or more.

How much does 1 seed weigh?
 
Using an accurate scale I weighed 100 seeds from different batches of Datura stramonium purchased recently from several different vendors and found the seed weight to be between 5-10 mg, with the average seed weighing 7.78 mg.

In the past SWIM has used 1-3 seeds to induce lucid dreams. They are very effective for that purpose. SWIM did so last night in fact, this time using just 1 seed. It was very effective.

SWIM has not yet combined Datura stramonium with oral bufotenine to see if it can block the nausea effectively. In the above Erowid report, the guy uses 10 seeds to combat motion sickness. SWIM doesn’t want to attempt using 10 seeds. He’s going to start with 1 seed and see how that goes. At most 1 seed can contain up to 70 micrograms of hyoscyamine (and a little scopolamine with traces of atropine). The maximum safe dose of hyoscyamine is 21 times that dosage, so it’s no where near a dangerous dose.
 
Ok, after doing tons of research SWIM sees no indication that a safe micro dose of Datura stramonium should cause any problems when used with bufotenine.

20 minutes ago SWIM took one 8 mg Datura stramonium seed (containing up to 56 micrograms of alkaloids of which most is hyoscyamine) and crushed it in his mouth thoroughly and swallowed it. This was followed 10 minutes later with a low dose of 30 mg freebase bufotenine taken sublingually and allowed to drain down into his stomach where it will cause nausea within 30 minutes guaranteed if the Datura stramonium doesn't work.

Right now, 20 minutes after taking the Datura stramonium seed and 10 minutes after taking the bufotenine, a very light pleasant stimulant effect is felt, mostly from the Datura stramonium. The effects of the bufotenine are just beginning.
 
Ok, so 30 minutes have passed since taking the bufotenine and SWIM should have nausea now from the bufotenine being swallowed and he has absolutely no nausea yet. It seems like the single 8 mg Datura stramonium seed has successfully blocked the nausea caused by oral bufotenine. It might be early yet though; sometimes the nausea takes 60 minutes to start. SWIM will go do some reading and report back.

SWIM feels quite nice at the moment :d
 
69ron said:
Ok, so 30 minutes have passed since taking the bufotenine and SWIM should have nausea now from the bufotenine being swallowed and he has absolutely no nausea yet. It seems like the single 8 mg Datura stramonium seed has successfully blocked the nausea caused by oral bufotenine. It might be early yet though; sometimes the nausea takes 60 minutes to start. SWIM will go do some reading and report back.

SWIM feels quite nice at the moment :d
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When i combined it with acid, it seemed to slightly increase the duration of the trip to 16/18 hours. Do you have this experience as well?
 
polytrip said:
69ron said:
Ok, so 30 minutes have passed since taking the bufotenine and SWIM should have nausea now from the bufotenine being swallowed and he has absolutely no nausea yet. It seems like the single 8 mg Datura stramonium seed has successfully blocked the nausea caused by oral bufotenine. It might be early yet though; sometimes the nausea takes 60 minutes to start. SWIM will go do some reading and report back.

SWIM feels quite nice at the moment :d
Click to expand...

When i combined it with acid, it seemed to slightly increase the duration of the trip to 16/18 hours. Do you have this experience as well?
Click to expand...

SWIM has had LSD with tropane alkaloids (atropine, hyoscyamine, and scopolamine) added to it in the past many times. Some blotter manufactures add it to increase the visuals, I’ve heard. Such acid has a very different body feel to it, you can tell tropane alkaloids are in it. SWIM likes it actually, unless they put too much. SWIM found that kind of acid to be much more visual with a smoother body feel, as long as the tropane alkaloid content wasn’t too high. SWIM’s had some blotter that had way too much tropane alkaloids added to it and a reddish face, slightly dry mouth and couldn’t urinate properly, but the trip was very nice. SWIM never paid much attention to the duration of the acid, but I think it was slightly longer, now that you mention it. SWIM wishes that acid sheet manufacturers putting additional things in the acid would at least mark the blotters so that you know they have tropane alkaloids in them because too many hits of such acid is very unpleasant and could be dangerous.

How much did you use with the acid? Did you notice any other changes in the effects?
 
Ok, so back to the original topic.

SWIM went to go read and then during the peak he was too sleepy and just went to sleep. He had tons of cool dreams.

Nausea never developed at all. So one 8 mg Datura stramonium seed is enough to completely block the nausea from 30 mg of oral freebase bufotenine (taken sublingually and then swallowed). The effects of the bufotenine were enhanced a little bit as well. It was slightly more visual. Keep in mind that the bufotenine dose was small, barely enough to cause visuals on it’s own.

The combination was extremely nice. The side effects of oral bufotenine were completely absent. SWIM will have to try this again with a higher dose of bufotenine.

I’m surprised that one 8 mg Datura stramonium seed is that effective at blocking the side effects. It’s no wonder some shamans add tropane alkaloid containing plants like Brugmansia to ayahuasca to block the purging. I’d like to know how much they use. It seems that completely safe microdoses are all that’s needed with Datura stramonium seeds so I imagine shamans only add very small amounts of Brugmansia to ayahuasca for the same effect. But I don’t really know.
 
As a side note, SWIM feels FANTASTIC TODAY. The after effects of the combination taken last night have really put SWIM in a great mood. Today he feels very refreshed and well rested.
 
69ron said:
polytrip said:
69ron said:
Ok, so 30 minutes have passed since taking the bufotenine and SWIM should have nausea now from the bufotenine being swallowed and he has absolutely no nausea yet. It seems like the single 8 mg Datura stramonium seed has successfully blocked the nausea caused by oral bufotenine. It might be early yet though; sometimes the nausea takes 60 minutes to start. SWIM will go do some reading and report back.

SWIM feels quite nice at the moment :d
Click to expand...

When i combined it with acid, it seemed to slightly increase the duration of the trip to 16/18 hours. Do you have this experience as well?
Click to expand...

SWIM has had LSD with tropane alkaloids (atropine, hyoscyamine, and scopolamine) added to it in the past many times. Some blotter manufactures add it to increase the visuals, I’ve heard. Such acid has a very different body feel to it, you can tell tropane alkaloids are in it. SWIM likes it actually, unless they put too much. SWIM found that kind of acid to be much more visual with a smoother body feel, as long as the tropane alkaloid content wasn’t too high. SWIM’s had some blotter that had way too much tropane alkaloids added to it and a reddish face, slightly dry mouth and couldn’t urinate properly, but the trip was very nice. SWIM never paid much attention to the duration of the acid, but I think it was slightly longer, now that you mention it. SWIM wishes that acid sheet manufacturers putting additional things in the acid would at least mark the blotters so that you know they have tropane alkaloids in them because too many hits of such acid is very unpleasant and could be dangerous.

How much did you use with the acid? Did you notice any other changes in the effects?
Click to expand...

I used to make tea of 20 to 30 brugmansia leaves and some other parts of the plant. I few times i took LSD with it. This was in my teen-age years and i would not do things that dangerous nowadays.
The effects where totally awesome though. The tropanes make the LSD more visual indeed, but the LSD makes the tropanes less sedative and mind numbing also. Although the amount of tropanes i took where powerfull enough by themselves, i have a clear recollection of all the experiences i had with this combo. One of the most awesome things i ever had with it was when i saw and felt people emitting flashes of lightning that gave me goosebumps and a weird tingling sensation. besides the dry throat and trouble urinating i also had the same feeling sometimes that you get from high doses of niacin, a not unpleasant burning sensation on the skin of my face and neck. sometimes the feeling of flying and out-of-body experiences. colours changed rapidly sometimes. from one moment someone looked green and then suddenly pink, purple or red.
But again, i would never do these type of things today anymore. And one time i made a brugmansia brew where i boiled the leaves in water instead of just making tea of them and that brew was much, much more potent. I am very lucky there was a sitter around that day because i think i would have definately done stupid things otherwise. for two days i realy could not tell the difference between the real world and hallucinations. They where awesome, but it was so overpowering that without a sitter i probably would have set myself or my house on fire or something. And i'm lucky that i didn't die because i was very close to it when i look back at it, my muscles where to weak to hold a teacup eeven. That's why i feel i realy have to disreccoment tropanes to everybody. You can easily just take too much.
 
We all know tropane alkaloids are dangerous in massive doses. Why reiterate that here? This topic is not about taking massive doses of tropane alkaloids to commit suicide or cause one's self brain damage, it's about using safe microdoses with bufotenine to alleviate the nausea. I don't want to see this thread become a Datura thread about how to cause delirium by using toxic overdoses of Datura. No one should be doing that not even trained shamans. It's way too dangerous.

This topic is only about small safe microdoses of tropane alkaloids for their well known anti-nausea effect. Scopolamine (and also hyoscyamine) is one of the best anti-nausea medications you can buy. Just because some people abuse it and take massive overdoses to get brain damage, kill themselves, or just go temporarily mad, doesn't mean I want to talk about that in this thread. I'm tired of that subject always popping up when I talk about Datura. The proper way to use Datura is by using microdoses, not toxic delirium inducing overdoses. People doing that are risking their lives, and this thread is not about that. Its about using it responsibly for it's well known anti-nausea effect.

Tropane alkaloids are like any other alkaloid. If you take too much, it's dangerous. Why people insist on taking overdoses of tropane alkaloids to get delirious is beyond me. That is not something people should be doing. Would you drink 100 cups of coffee in one sitting just to experience mind altering effects from an overdose of caffeine! You most certainly would NOT. So why do people do this with tropane alkaloids? I don't get it. There's a safe maximum dose that's been known for ages, and that's 10 seeds of Datura stramonium. Why the hell are people taking 50-100 seeds or more to induce delirium? WHY? That is so bad for you and you could even die from it!

Please I don't want this thread to be about taking massive doses of tropane alkaloids to fuck yourself up. It's about using responsible safe microdoses for their anti-nausea effects.
 
Just wanna mention there is difference in potency between brown and black "ripe" seeds, where the black one could be twice as much stronger.
ILPT and friend been testing those a decade ago and established save dose any less then 50 black seeds. Potent black seeds in count more then 50 can give one moderate side effects and noticeable change in perception.
They been using about 30 brown seeds each, 3-4 times a week as a combo with some weaker marry j.Then after month or two some bizarre things happened (unexpected very short termed hallucinations occasionally occurred )
One should be careful and watch himself if using them regularly(even small doses) for longer period
However, ILPT can surely say amount about 10 seeds is VERY SAFE dose and you found it just right.
69ron said:
I’m surprised that one 8 mg Datura stramonium seed is that effective at blocking the side effects. It’s no wonder some shamans add tropane alkaloid containing plants like Brugmansia to ayahuasca to block the purging. I’d like to know how much they use. It seems that completely safe microdoses are all that’s needed with Datura stramonium seeds so I imagine shamans only add very small amounts of Brugmansia to ayahuasca for the same effect. But I don’t really know.
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This is such a great idea. ILPT never though about those anti vomitinig effects. He though it became an aya admixture in order to increase visuals
ILPT has also weak stomach for Morning Glory, Argyrea Nervosa,San pedro and Peruvian torches. Would 10 seeds help here too?
 
SWIM has the black seeds.

10 Datura stramonium seeds (maybe even just 1) should be very effective in blocking the nausea of all those you mentioned because their nausea is caused by the same action as that of oral bufotenine, so if it works for oral bufotenine it should work well for all of those.

It will also increase the visuals. Hyoscyamine potentiates the hallucinogenic effects of nearly all psychedelics (even marijuana as you noted).
 
SWIM did another test this morning.

He thoroughly chewed 2 seeds (weighing 14 mg together). Ten minutes later he swallowed 100 mg of freebase bufotenine in a capsule to make sure none is absorbed sublingually. That dose is guaranteed to cause nausea. Usually it takes about 50 minutes or so for the nausea to kick in. We'll see what happens. It's been about 30 minutes since he chewed the seeds, and 20 minutes since he swallowed the bufotenine. He doesn't feel anything yet. I think the two seeds have slowed down the absorption of the bufotenine.
 
It's been 50 minutes since he chewed the two seeds and 40 minutes since he took the bufotenine capsule.

Now the bufotenine's effects are noticeable. It feels a little different that it usually does. It feels smoother. There is no nausea yet. It's a bit soon to tell for sure. SWIM is going to eat breakfast in a minute.
 
It's been 1 hour since SWIM started this test.

He's getting mild aphrodisiac effects from the bufotenine. That's unusual. Usually it takes about 30 mg of smoked freebase bufotenine to do that.

SWIM is quite tingly right now. There is no nausea at all. That sour typtamine taste in the mouth is present (which usually coincides with nausea) though. There are no visuals yet. The effects definitely seem to be coming on slower.

At this point it just feels like oral bufotenine but without any nausea at all.
 
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