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Oral bufotenine & scopolamine/hyoscyamine (Datura, Brugmansia, etc.)

Migrated topic.
It’s been two hours. The effects are starting to fade. The peak happened at 60 minutes it seemed.

SWIM finished breakfast and is now having a strong cup of coffee as usual.

So the tests were a success! Microdoses of hyoscyamine in the form of Datura stramomiun seeds, are very effective at completely blocking all the nausea from oral bufotenine. There wasn’t even the slightest hint of nausea at any point during the trip. Very excellent indeed! And the hyoscyamine dose was so small as to have only a very slight effect on the trip, barely noticeable except at the beginning of the onset.
 
Would an OTC motion sickness patch containing scopalomine have equal effects (with the bonus of less dosage uncertainty)?

What about dramamine?
 
Ok, for those few people out there that are actually interested, for the most part the oral bufotenine trip was unaltered, except for the complete loss of all nausea during the whole trip, and an alteration at the onset. During the onset, the hyoscyamine was felt before the bufotenine was felt. When the bufotenine effects started, it was a mix of the two. It felt warmer, the very light visual effects were warmer, and there was a very slight boost in psychedelic effects. 100 mg of bufotenine orally is extremely weak, so SWIM didn’t expect much from it. 30 mg of bufotenine sublingually is much stronger than 100 mg orally.

Essentially, this test was performed to find an herb that’s effective at combating the nausea of tryptamine based psychedelics such as oral bufotenine. SWIM was searching for one that did not cloud up the effects or cause sedation. Bufotenine taken orally produces more nausea than LSA and all other popular tryptamine, so it was a good choice for this test. Dramamine, available at the local store in an effective anti-nausea medication, but it clouds up the effects of all psychedelics. SWIM doesn’t like Dramamine at all. Scopolamine and hyoscyamine are the two most effective anti-nausea medications there are. In pure form they are available by prescription only. However they are quite abundant and cheap when sources from various Datura herbs. Scopolamine is a sedative while hyoscyamine is more of a stimulant.

Initially SWIM thought Datura stramonium was high in scopolamine, but after doing lots of research he found out that Datura stramonium is high in hyoscyamine. This is good because Datura stramonium is cheap, widely available, completely legal, and hyoscyamine is preferred over scopolamine for this purpose because it’s not sedating.

The nausea caused by oral bufotenine is produced by the same mechanisms that cause nausea for other tryptamines. Oral bufotenine is the strongest producer of nausea out of all the popular tryptamine psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca, etc.). So if 1-3 seeds of Datura stramonium are capable of blocking the nausea produces by bufotenine, they should be very effective for the other tryptamines as well. Ayahuasca might be an exception to this because the nausea is normally produces by toxins in the caapi vine. But my guess is that 1-3 Datura stramonium seeds will also completely block the nausea from the vine as well.
 
SpasticSpaz said:
Would an OTC motion sickness patch containing scopalomine have equal effects (with the bonus of less dosage uncertainty)?

What about dramamine?
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I don't know what you're worried about.

1-3 seeds of Datura stramonium seeds are completely safe. 3 super large super potent Datura stramonium seeds can have up to only 210 micrograms of hyoscyamine. The safe maximum adult dose of hyoscyamine is 1500 micrograms. You would need 21 super large 10 mg seeds that are super potent (0.7% alkaloids) to equal that much hyoscyamine. With an average size 7.7 mg average potency seed (0.3% alkaloids), you would need 64 seeds to reach that dose. So 1-3 seeds are nothing dangerous at all.

Dramamine works but is a very crappy thing to add to a psychedelic. SWIM doesn’t like it one bit. It really muddies up the effects.

Scopolamine hasn’t been tried by SWIM yet. It should be just as effective as 1-3 Datura stramonium seeds, however it’s a sedative and might not be as nice. Datura stramonium contains mostly hyoscyamine which is a stimulant in small doses. It did not muddy up the effects one bit, and in fact made them a little nicer.
 
FYI, here are the pharmacokinetics of hyoscyamine for safe doses below 1500 micrograms:

"Following parenteral administration of hyoscyamine sulfate, the drug has an onset of action of 2–3 minutes; peak pharmacologic action occurs within 15–30 minutes and persists for up to 4 hours. Following oral administration of hyoscyamine sulfate conventional tablets, the drug has an onset of action of 20–30 minutes. When hyoscyamine sulfate conventional tablets are chewed or administered sublingually or when the drug is administered orally as an elixir or solution, the drug has an onset of action of 5–20 minutes. Oral administration of the sublingual tablets results in similar pharmacologic effects as sublingual administration, although the onset may not be as rapid. Pharmacologic action peaks within 30–60 minutes and persists for about 4 hours when hyoscyamine sulfate is administered orally as conventional tablets, elixir, or solution or sublingually as conventional tablets or when conventional tablets are chewed. Following oral administration of hyoscyamine sulfate extended-release capsules, the drug has an onset of action of about 20–30 minutes; pharmacologic action peaks within 40–90 minutes and persists for about 12 hours."
 
Hmmm...it's been 7 long hours and SWIM still feels the bufotenine! Drinking the coffee made it a little more potent.

It seems that hyoscyamine makes bufotenine last a lot longer. At this point in time SWIM should not be feeling anything at all. It’s VERY NICE. SWIM went out to get his haircut and could not stop smiling:) Everyone noticed SWIM’s big smile. Ah:) VERY NICE:)
 
yeah nice thread swim might try 2 with some hbwr. Is d. stramonium the only one with hyoscyamine,what about the others like metel and ceratocaula?
 
There are others with hyoscyamine like Henbane (Hyoscyamus niger).

Datura stramonium is the only one SWIM has a lot of experience with, and is the only one he's researched concerning safe dosage amounts. With Datura stramonium he feels confident taking 10 or less seeds, knowing good and well that 10 seeds are well within the safe dosage range for Datura stramonium.

Datura inoxia contains mostly scopolamine. SWIM can easily purchase that as well, but has not done his research on that plant. He's interested in trying it, but only after he can determine the safe dosage range for it. SWIM has read that microdoses of scopolamine are sedating, rather than stimulating like hyoscyamine is. But SWIM also read that microdoses of hyoscyamine are also sedating, so he's not sure what to believe there. For SWIM, microdoses of hyoscyamine are definitely stimulating. It's like having a cup of coffee. SWIM likes it quite a bit. SWIM wants to experience microdoses of scopolamine at least once to see if what he's read is accurate or not.
 
69ron said:
We all know tropane alkaloids are dangerous in massive doses. Why reiterate that here?

Please I don't want this thread to be about taking massive doses of tropane alkaloids to fuck yourself up. It's about using responsible safe microdoses for their anti-nausea effects.
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I know.
The video was posted (a) for the benefit of dumb kids who come across sites like this and then decide to do it. And (b) I thought you MIGHT be interested in a lesser known native uses of it... as a zombie drug... so that a dead king's wives can be doped then will gladly walk into his grave to be buried alive with him. And the criminals using it to get people to gladly rob themselves for them. The series wasn't about getting high. SORRY! :(
 
While it's interesting, it really belongs in another thread. The doses used for those types of effects are not safe anti-nausea microdoses doses. They are dangerous doses very near fatal doses.

I'm just kind of on the offensive. Sorry about that. It's just that whenever I try to talk about tropane alkaloids in a responsible way, the subject of taking massive doses to induce delirium always pops up, and eventually the whole thread usually ends up being a thread about how to fuck yourself up really badly with Datura, and I'm really trying to stay clear of that. Massive delirium inducing doses of Datura and similar plants are extremely dangerous and have killed thousands of people.

Safe microdoses of Datura do not cause delirium, and have a ton of well known medical uses. That's what this thread is all about: using the well known anti-nausea effects of hyoscyamine and scopolamine in safe microdoses with other psychedelics to prevent nausea.

SWIM's tests have shown that hyoscyamine from 1-2 Datura stramonium seeds is more than enough to completely block the nausea of oral bufotenine. That I think is very useful for the psychedelic community. It works better than Dramamine, better than ginger root, and at the same time slightly boosts the effects of bufotenine. 1-2 seeds is an extremely safe dose for Datura stramonium. There's no way that dose can cause any negative effects on a human being.
 
hrmm - on that post about ppl eating seeds many times a week and smoking mj then having experiences - swim remembers reading long ago that the tropane alkys build up in ones system and take about 2 weeks to leave u - so if 50 seeds is the highest safe dose then eating 10 per day for a week is the same as eating 50 streight - so perhaps this is a good nausea killer but it must be used correctly - microdoses with cleanout periods of 2 weeks.
Very nice to know this - there is always a reason for each plant added to a shamans brew :)

also - swim has a huge amount of datura growing everywhere around him - its a very successful weed - what tek could be used to extract the hyscomine, scopolomine and atropine ? - could they perhaps be separated so only the most effective alkaloids are isolated - then perhaps freebased and added to the bufo then standardised - i know purified tropane alkaloids are probably not a good idea for the average joe but for those that enjoy chemistry, are responsible and enjoy experimenting with various concoctions, this could be a route to the holy grail of bufotinene.
 
Phlux- said:
hrmm - on that post about ppl eating seeds many times a week and smoking mj then having experiences - swim remembers reading long ago that the tropane alkys build up in ones system and take about 2 weeks to leave u - so if 50 seeds is the highest safe dose then eating 10 per day for a week is the same as eating 50 streight - so perhaps this is a good nausea killer but it must be used correctly - microdoses with cleanout periods of 2 weeks.
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Good point mate. Fellas didn`t realize that could be possibility of retention in vitro for soooo... long. Now it make sense.
Bufo seems like very enjoyable but ILPT hasn`t got enough cash to clean it up properly. So he will try it with datura to see how few seeds can combat nausea from smoked impure extract :roll:
 
Phlux- said:
hrmm - on that post about ppl eating seeds many times a week and smoking mj then having experiences - swim remembers reading long ago that the tropane alkys build up in ones system and take about 2 weeks to leave u - so if 50 seeds is the highest safe dose then eating 10 per day for a week is the same as eating 50 streight - so perhaps this is a good nausea killer but it must be used correctly - microdoses with cleanout periods of 2 weeks.
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SWIM has never taken them more than a few times in 1 week, usually only once a week so he can't really comment on that. However according to several medical books which talk about using doses of 1500 micrograms or less of hyoscyamine, they state that the effects last only 4 hours.

I believe what you're talking about here applies only to doses larger than 1500 micrograms. Large doses slow down digestion considerably allowing the drug to stay in the body much longer than 4 hours. So I really don't think that's a concern when using 10 seeds or less. But possibly it is.

Has anyone taken 1 seed every day for a week before?

What about hyoscyamine motion sickness pills? Do they state that as being a problem on the bottle of pills because I've never heard of that being an issue with normal doses.
 
Information about hyoscyamine (the main active alkaloid in Datura stramonium seeds) taken from Hyoscyamine Uses, Side Effects & Warnings

What is hyoscyamine?
Hyoscyamine produces many effects in the body, including relief from muscle spasms.

Hyoscyamine also reduces the fluid secretions of many organs and glands in the body, such as the stomach, pancreas, lungs, saliva glands, sweat glands, and nasal passages.

Hyoscyamine is used to treat many different stomach and intestinal disorders, including peptic ulcer and irritable bowel syndrome. It is also used to control muscle spasms in the bladder, kidneys, or digestive tract, and to reduce stomach acid. Hyoscyamine is sometimes used to reduce tremors and rigid muscles in people with symptoms of Parkinson's disease.

Hyoscyamine is also used as a drying agent to control excessive salivation, runny nose, or excessive sweating.

Hyoscyamine may also be used for other purposes not listed in this medication guide.

Hyoscyamine Dosing Information
Usual Adult Dose for Irritable Bowel Syndrome:

Immediate-release Tablets: 0.125 to 0.25 mg orally or sublingually every 4 hours or as needed. Do not take more than 12 tablets in 24 hours.

Usual Pediatric Dose for Urinary Incontinence:

Greater than or equal to 2 to less than 12 years:
Immediate-release Tablets: 0.0625 to 0.125 mg sublingually, orally, chew, every 4 hours or as needed. Do not take more than 6 tablets in 24 hours.
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How do those doses related to Datura stramonium seeds?

0.0560 mg = 1 average 8 mg seed of maximum 0.7% alkaloid content
0.0625 mg = the minimum dose used for children ages 2-12 for treating urinary incontinence
0.1120 mg = 2 average 8 mg seeds of maximum 0.7% alkaloid content
0.1250 mg = the maximum dose used for children ages 2-12 for treating urinary incontinence
0.1250 mg = the minimum dose used for adults for treating irritable bowel syndrome
0.2240 mg = 4 average 8 mg seeds of maximum 0.7% alkaloid content
0.2500 mg = the maximum dose used for adults for treating irritable bowel syndrome
1.4560 mg = 26 average 8 mg seeds of maximum 0.7% alkaloid content
1.5000 mg = maximum safe dose of hyoscyamine for an adult


0.0240 mg = 1 average 8 mg seed of average 0.3% alkaloid content
0.0480 mg = 2 average 8 mg seeds of average 0.3% alkaloid content
0.0625 mg = the minimum dose used for children ages 2-12 for treating urinary incontinence
0.1200 mg = 5 average 8 mg seeds of average 0.3% alkaloid content
0.1250 mg = the maximum dose used for children ages 2-12 for treating urinary incontinence
0.1250 mg = the minimum dose used for adults for treating irritable bowel syndrome
0.2400 mg = 9 average 8 mg seeds of average 0.3% alkaloid content
0.2500 mg = the maximum dose used for adults for treating irritable bowel syndrome
1.4880 mg = 62 average 8 mg seeds of average 0.3% alkaloid content
1.5000 mg = maximum safe dose of hyoscyamine for an adult


For these medical uses, up to 2 seeds would be used for children ages 2-12, and up to 4 seeds for adults. That's assuming your seeds are super potent 0.7% alkaloid content seeds. Most are about 0.3%, not 0.7%. Some are even 0.1% or less.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Datura stramonium seeds can be used safely if you know what you're doing. Normally 1-4 seeds are all an adult needs for the valuable medicinal effect of hyoscyamine. Any more than that and you're really overdoing it. The only time you might take 26 seeds is if your seeds are fairly weak. 26 maximum potency 8 mg seeds would contain about 1.456 mg of hyoscyamine. The safe limit for an adult is 1.5 mg. Absolutely Never go beyond 26 seeds. 20 is a safer number. For extra safety I would limit it at 10, which is also the limit given in a lot of herb books.

I want to make it clear that hallucinations from Datura are a sign of OVERDOSE. Please do not take enough Datura to experience hallucinations. The overdose needed for that is extremely risky, could put you in a coma or even kill you. That's no joke. Datura stramonium is safe when 10 seeds or less are used. At that dose, none of the overdose symptoms are even remotely possible. Datura stramonium is a valuable medicinal herb with many uses when doses of 10 seeds or less are used. But when people abuse it and take 50-250 seeds to experience hallucinations they are taking huge, possibly fatal amounts. Don't be tempted to do it. Limit yourself to 10 seeds per day, and don't take it everyday. As long as you follow those rules, it's perfectly safe to use.
 
Swim has seen someone eat a large amount of brugmansia suaviolens and it was no fun, this oe was mad. anything in excess is bad be it opium or water, lots of these are medicinal in smaller amounts - isnt this what homeopathy is based on largely ?
Tropane alkaloids are very usefull and it is actually sad the amount of negative vibes that surface when someone mentions them, imagine if concentrated caffine was in those seeds and it was common for ppl to abuse them and end up dead due to od, im sure we would all feel very different about coffee.
This new information and technique of usage may lead to a decrease in paranoia when discussing these plants which swim thinks is a good thing,
Thanks 69Ron.
 
SWIM recently tried using Datura inoxia seeds (together weighing 16 mg) with 100 mg of oral bufotenine, and instead of preventing the nausea like Datura stramonium did, it INCREASED THE NAUSEA!

Datura inoxia seeds contain nearly pure scopolamine. Datura stramonium seeds contain almost entirely hyoscyamine with just a little scopolamine.

Does anyone know why scopolamine would increase the nausea while hyoscyamine blocks it?
 
yeah and atropine and scopolamine has virtually the same effects only atropine is 5 time more toxic!

....also out of the trio (a. s. h.) scopolamine is believe to be the most hallucinogenic one

Ilpt think your firs choice was right one he will definitely try only d stramonium seeds
 
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