P. aquatica identification - how to differentiate from Alopecurus pratensis?

[dithyramb]

Hello dear Nexus community! It's my first post here but I have been reading since a few years and appreciating the pioneering work done over here greatly.

My work on the entheogenic path is focussed on discovering/creating a powerful, sustainable medicine made from local wild plants. I have been working with syrian rue that I wildcraft since over 9 years now. This year I have become a great fan of Russian Olive bark as well. I live in Turkey.

This year I have tried what I thought to be P. aquatica as a partner to the rue and it worked beautifully. I could only do two bioassays and by the time I made up my mind to make a harvest in bulk it was midsummer and surprise surprise, all the aquatica grass had dried out. Now I am waiting for next Spring season to continue with this project.

Just now I was looking into different grass species in the Poaceae family and found out that there is a species that really resemble the grass that I was working with - Alopecurus pratensis. I am no botanist and have not done a thorough study of the morphology of P. aquatica and assumed that it has no serious look-alikes. I have no live or dry specimens with me now, I have a few obscure photos from years ago:

The crude extract worked appreciably well as light...

Does anyone have a say on this?
And can anyone provide a definitive guide for how to differentiate these two grass species?

Chimp Z, are you reading? You seem to have a lot of experience with Phalaris and other of your local plants. Would love to meet you

With kindness.

 

[Jees]

Dear dithy, we used to know each other from that other forum, already years ago.
I'm glad to see you again here, a warm welcome

You have my vote already as I consider you very serious, always being dedicated and respectful to the plants and working with them. Jamie here should know you too and Old Crow flew by here also but not in the last 2 years.

I know too little of the grasses, but I remember advices to be careful with unknown species for potential unwelcome components.
Maybe this can help: Free lab test for your (garden or local) plants !!! Interested?? - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
btw that picture did not came trough.

I hope you find some good grass info that you seek :thumb_up:
A virtual hug

 

[Jagube]

Hello and welcome, dithyramb.

You may want to repost your ID request in Phalaris/other grass types ID thread, which is accessible to new members.

 

[dithyramb]

Dear Jees, I remember you Thanks so much for the warm welcome!

It's funny, these photos are from a thread in the aya forum years back in which you and I were having considerable exchange I will repost them and then lets see if you remember!

Thank you so much for the nice welcome, Jagube. And thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

 

[Jees]

Just lovely

Please allow me to introduce you as a pioneer in Turkish Syrian Rue and how it's full spectrum tea differs from Iranian seeds, in his experience. How it's own spectrum tea differs according to seasons. Great work you made at that forum

If you linked pics URL from one other forum to here, that might not work. :?

 

[dithyramb]

Thanks for the flattering remarks, Jees! I am just a humble man following the call of Spirit. The Syrian Rue I studied and am allied with is a specific strain growing in a specific location, and I have not come across Syrian Rue with the same spirit/energy in Turkey that grows outside that specific habitat. In short, this strain is exceptionally warm, gentle, and feminine/motherly. No rough edges which Syrian often is infamous for.

I have recently started combining it with local Russian Olive and I love their synergy, which feels very powerful and complete/whole.

Back to topic, I want to post these pictures and also pictures of other Phalaris grass in the thread which Jagube linked. What is the right way to post pictures here, if links to online photo storage won't work? I see there is a checkbox for attaching files but nothing happens when I click it.

 

[Jagube]

What is the right way to post pictures here, if links to online photo storage won't work? I see there is a checkbox for attaching files but nothing happens when I click it.

When you tick the checkbox for attaching files, you need to click the 'Post' button. It will then allow you to upload image files. I know it's rather counter-intuitive.

 

[Chimp Z]

Dithyramb, hey great post.
There's many things I wanna talk about.

First of all, I saw you posting about this in the Phalaris ID thread and before I saw the yellow-tassels on
the seed heads I thought to myself it could be Phalaris Paradoxa.
Then I saw the dried Syrian Rue plants and I wondered if you are in the Middle East area.
(EDIT: You are in Turkey! Nice, so you probably have P. Brachystachys, P. Paraodoxa, and Alopecurus Pratensis all growing)
I have collected Alopecurus Pratensis, Phalaris Aquatica and Phalaris Paradoxa in the wild and
extracted from each species.
I did not know Alopecurus Pratensis grew in Asia before today, though.
So it naturalized to Australia and North America from Europe and Asia.
If you look through my bioassays in the Phalaris Way of the Future thread
You'll find my friends and I have had success with wild harvested P. Paradoxa.
A dear friend who was backpacking through Montana years ago said they
discovered a "sea of Phalaris Aquatica". I was skeptical because I thought that
Aquatica was found more in Oregon and California.
So I had them boil down 500g of plant material into a gooey resin.
They sent this resin along with a few seed heads for ID.
The "Aquatica" they claimed was actually Alopecurus Pratensis,
but I did not know this before I smoked it.
It seemed active and I shared it with 3 other friends who said they got
high from it. I ended up coating the goo on the dried seed heads and through it in a bong.
I can't really tell you what that was like because I do not remember.
There's a few species of grass I haven't posted about on here because I want to get more results from them before I say they're active.
I don't wanna go and say Alopecurus Pratensis contains DMT because
I do not know. There are some other grasses which may contain hordenine, beta carbolines,
or gramine and I'm not sure how each of these compounds operates on their own.

Be sure to know what patch of grass you harvested and extracted from.
Did you accidentally grab a bunch of that Brachystachys that was growing nearby?
If the grass is active I would go as far as saying you have Phalaris Paradoxa potentially growing right there,
which looks very similar to Alopecurus and could have mixed both grasses when extracting, providing an active
yield. It definitely appears you got Alopecurus on deck, but there might also be more Phalaris growing amidst it.
Phalaris Paradoxa is one of the strongest grasses I've ever worked with.
I have never seen a grass extract blast someone off as much as this species.
It all varies though from season to season.

Can you post any new pix?
Interested in hearing more about your experiences with Alopecurus
If you find in literature anything about Alopecurus-staggers that would be a huge hint
into it's indole content.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Well, well, dithyramb - it looks like you got promoted. Congratulations!

Really interesting thread. It's certainly helped you attain full membership.

So great that you're focussed on the sustainability side, too.

 

[dithyramb]

Hello Nexus! Thank you for the promotion! I hadn't dropped by here for so long.... The promotion and chimp's reply were wonderful surprises.

Nice to meet you, Chimp Z!

Here is some news on my side... The grass is now identified to be Alopecurus arundinaceus. And it seems to me that any claim of a "P. aquatica sea" would actually be an Alopecurus sea - this grass grows abundantly indeed!

Strangely, I could not detect psychoactivity in this years harvest... Once I found out that it is not Phalaris, I lost interest in it... But who knows what could come out with an in depth study...

I find it interesting how my description of it's spirit matched the description of P.aquatica by another friend...

I would definitely recognize brachystachys, but I might have mixed in other lookalikes last year...

Are you saying that P. paradoxa worked best for you among the grasses? And what about the scaremongering on the potential 5 meo in the grasses, that mixing it with an maoi could be lethal?

Once again I will have to wait until next Spring for the next phase of study on the grasses...

I had taken many pictures of various grasses this year but unfortunately I lost my telephone so I cannot post more, yet.

Thanks again, and waiting for your reply.

 

[Chimp Z]

Hey sometimes misidentifying a plant can be a blessing in disguise.
Alopecurus could be active in its growing season but it'll take some work to find out.
Many grasses go dormant over the summer.
When rain returns in the fall/When the warmth returns in the spring
is probably the best time to work with these grasses.
Often times, grasses like Phalaris grow amidst other patches of grass.
People are here to help if you reach out about identifying a plant.

"
Are you saying that P. paradoxa worked best for you among the grasses? And what about the scaremongering on the potential 5 meo in the grasses, that mixing it with an maoi could be lethal?"

-Phalaris Paradoxa has provided some intensely amazing smoked experiences. The grass that
has worked best for me is Phalaris Brachystachys. Mixed with MAOI, Phalaris Brachystachys
has been the most healing and visionary grass. Once upon a time I even refused to taste alcohol for
about 6 months. Not even tinctures. My mind was very strict about inviting neurotoxins in.
I never have had a plant change my brain chemistry like that before.
There should be rehab facilities serving Syrian Rue & Phalaris Brachystachys.
Phalaris Arundinacea, for me, is better as an admixture plant.
I've mixed Arundinacea with MAOI, San Pedro, Psilocybe mushroom tea, juiced it,
taken tinctures of the grass, but I prefer to smoke the extracts on top of another
psychedelic. It's like an entheogenic appetizer. Arundinacea does have the
potential to be very potent on it's own, many times extracts are weak though.
One of the greatest experiences with Phalaris I've had was when I smoked an extract
while tripping on Psilocybe Cyanescens. I saw little bright diamond-esque creatures
crawling on top each other building shiny monuments that eventually combined to form cities.
Terence Mckenna would call these the "Clockwork elves". I have never seen anything like
it since on any entheogen. I think my place in this world is involved with the grass forces
and why I perceived to see "clockwork elves" was because I was visualizing the information
that the grass was sharing with me. We can be microphones for plants.
5-MeO-DMT is not so fun when mixed with MAOI.
Just make sure to do lots of research and inner work before trying this out.

 

[dithyramb]

But all the grasses are said to potentially have 5-MeO-DMT, possibly as the main alkaloid, including P. brachystachys. Do you ever experience this "not funness" with the grasses mixed with syrian rue?

I have a few seeds of P. brachystachys left from a harvest from years ago... Perhaps I should sow them this Fall...

" I think my place in this world is involved with the grass forces"

I appreciate that very much...! :thumb_up:

 

[Chimp Z]

I don't think I've come across 5-MeO-DMT rich strains.
Anything I've gotten has been DMT or an unfamiliar tryptamine effect that
could be synergy of alkaloids or something like 5-MeO-NMT


Brachystachys is worth the grow.
My best experiences have been when I sprouted seeds mid-late summer and harvested
in fall. (Plant in July, Harvest in October) The new growths will have more alkaloids.

 

[dithyramb]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Chimp Z. How would you describe the energy/spirit of brachystachys using the better known tryptamine plants such as Chacruna, chaliponga, acacia confusa etc as reference for comparison?