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Paranormal Experiment

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I agree totally. There are indeed so many things to learn. Both for the physical world and ourselves. And maybe as you say more effort should be put in trying to explain these experiments. We can go on theorising for hours and hours and for every one of my arguments you would come with a counterargument, till the end of time.

Telekinesis is an interesting subject, I totally agree. But my objection is about those who try to explain the telekinesis as a result of some "psychic" forces emanating from the himan brain or body. This is far from explanation. But telekinesis as an electromagnetic phenomenon is a nice theory. Even when this theory implies that "certain thinking" changes the electromagnetic properties of the human body so that it can move an electrostatic object such as a piece of paper. It may even explain why the wheel can turn but not the ice cube.

Kirlian photography for instance is all about photographing different electrostatic potentials from parts of our bodies, commonly depicted as an "aura", especially when fingertips are "photographed". And according to different states of mind (fear, relaxation, telling the truth, lying) or body (healthy, ill etc) of the subject, different ions and other substances are excreted from the hands via sweat. And these in retrospect give different auras. Whether certain auras can be associated with certain states is still a controversial thing, and a totally different subject.

The point is that is not far-fetched to hypothesise that the physical properties of the human body can dramatically change, and in response affect the detector instruments (a kirlian camera or a psi-wheel).

My objection is that talks about "psychic" powers to explain these phenomena are fairly uninformative because "psychic powers" are very vague and ill-defined. They do not provide a mechanism of how it happens; in contrast, I consider the above mentioned hypotheses as more grounded, easily testable and far more interesting to further investigate.

But still, I love these talks, thanks for contradicting all the time!
 
Cheeto said:
Infundibulum, when you played with it, when you had it spinning already, did you ever try(without changing anything other than thought) try to get it to stop and spin the oppisite direction, this works on demand, that means you are influencing it by some means unkown, this is not possible without some sort of control, because it can do what you want it to.
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No, not really. It was many years back when I was playing with that. How many people can actually control its direction of spinning as you claim? Have you tried it in other rooms of your house, even on different times of the year? Does anyone else report similar observations?
 
burnt said:
^^Try to move a paper clip with nothing put your mind screw the pin wheel. Try to lift a pencil with only your mind or a pen or any small object. It won't work if it does put it on you tube and let us check it out. Sorry this pinwheel stuff isn't convincing me of TK.
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Thats only because you haven't gave it a fair shot. No one seems to pick up on the control part of this experiment, with any reason you can through, it does not explain how i can control it by mind at a distance. As an explanation of why you can't move a pin or anyother object, its like this(Not to say no one out there can't move something better), say its like everyother function in your body, it requires to be worked out to have strength, With low strength with a muscle you've never used, it will take time to pump it up. Instead of debating why don't you just try it yourself and see why i'm making such a fuss about it, the control aspect it outstanding proof.
 
Infundibulum said:
Cheeto said:
Infundibulum, when you played with it, when you had it spinning already, did you ever try(without changing anything other than thought) try to get it to stop and spin the oppisite direction, this works on demand, that means you are influencing it by some means unkown, this is not possible without some sort of control, because it can do what you want it to.
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No, not really. It was many years back when I was playing with that. How many people can actually control its direction of spinning as you claim? Have you tried it in other rooms of your house, even on different times of the year? Does anyone else report similar observations?
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Tell you the truth, most people have these results. Thats why so many people make a fuss about it, its not hard to learn how to control it. You could very easily do it if only you gave it a chance, really try, not just put your hands by it and watch. I went to show my best friend, i put it on a table and sat down, i put my hands six inches away and got it to spin, HE told me to make it spin the other way so i attempted, it stoped almost instantly and start twitching, it would go the new direction almost all the way around then twitch and snap back the other way(This is the battle of confidence i mention), but within 1 min all together i fulfilled his request. He said he wasn't really amazed until he made his request and i fulfilled.


I have done it alot, many different times, many different places, i have anxiety problems, i noticed when i try to show people often i have a hard time making it move at all. I don't have these problems with my friend, thats why i performed good for him. I meesed with this thing for over a year and a half, i gained pretty good control and could get it spinning really fast, i mean fast. The control was amazing, i stoped doing it because i could never advance to anyother object and it just got boring. But i still thought the control aspect was veary amazing. Though ONCE i took the wheel off the pin and put it on a paper plate, it was upsidedown(The Wheel) and unfolded alot. I got it to spin 1/2 way round, i was amazed but couldn't repeat it so i usally don't mention it because of possibility, i could have missed something though it did not seem that way, i wish that could have been what i advanced to but sadly not, i gave it a few more chances but felt it was just not worth the time and headache.
 
Cheeto said:
I have done it alot, many different times, many different places, i have anxiety problems, i noticed when i try to show people often i have a hard time making it move at all. I don't have these problems with my friend, thats why i performed good for him. I meesed with this thing for over a year and a half, i gained pretty good control and could get it spinning really fast, i mean fast. The control was amazing, i stoped doing it because i could never advance to anyother object and it just got boring. But i still thought the control aspect was veary amazing. Though ONCE i took the wheel off the pin and put it on a paper plate, it was upsidedown(The Wheel) and unfolded alot. I got it to spin 1/2 way round, i was amazed but couldn't repeat it so i usally don't mention it because of possibility, i could have missed something though it did not seem that way, i wish that could have been what i advanced to but sadly not, i gave it a few more chances but felt it was just not worth the time and headache.
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This brings me to another issue with these types of experiments and how they are reported by other people and not by a controlled investigation. There is this bitch thing called "confirmation bias", that is, one reports positive results but negative attempts are missed. Something similar can happen with other things, e.g. acupuncture. You hear of many successful acupuncture healings and you say yeah, it must be working. What you do not hear is in how many cases acupuncture did not work.

But again the point here is not attacking your arguments by evoking a "confirmation bias". I am equally interested about hearing when it did not work as opposed to when it worked. What is the difference between those situations? This is a nice aproach of attacking the phenomenon.
 
Infundibulum said:
Cheeto said:
I have done it alot, many different times, many different places, i have anxiety problems, i noticed when i try to show people often i have a hard time making it move at all. I don't have these problems with my friend, thats why i performed good for him. I meesed with this thing for over a year and a half, i gained pretty good control and could get it spinning really fast, i mean fast. The control was amazing, i stoped doing it because i could never advance to anyother object and it just got boring. But i still thought the control aspect was veary amazing. Though ONCE i took the wheel off the pin and put it on a paper plate, it was upsidedown(The Wheel) and unfolded alot. I got it to spin 1/2 way round, i was amazed but couldn't repeat it so i usally don't mention it because of possibility, i could have missed something though it did not seem that way, i wish that could have been what i advanced to but sadly not, i gave it a few more chances but felt it was just not worth the time and headache.
Click to expand...

This brings me to another issue with these types of experiments and how they are reported by other people and not by a controlled investigation. There is this bitch thing called "confirmation bias", that is, one reports positive results but negative attempts are missed. Something similar can happen with other things, e.g. acupuncture. You hear of many successful acupuncture healings and you say yeah, it must be working. What you do not hear is in how many cases acupuncture did not work.

But again the point here is not attacking your arguments by evoking a "confirmation bias". I am equally interested about hearing when it did not work as opposed to when it worked. What is the difference between those situations? This is a nice aproach of attacking the phenomenon.
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Interesting question. I told you i am a logical thinking person, it simply works to well. At first it dosen't seem that amazing at all. And you could easily write it off, but if you get into praticing to control it for 2 weeks(For me) it gets to the point where if you start focusing it starts moving. Control of which way it moves can be an expetence battle, when you start to try, you see instant activity, it usally twitches or does a complete spin and stops. But in most cases, I would say 98% but i'll be safe and say 90% of the time, it only takes a few seconds to get it spinning at a very good pace, thats still including the twitch process, it rarly just jumps to your request, though it does in cases, but also only takes a few seconds, like 3-5 to acheive what your attempting. Ok, still in this battle, while you got it spining good you want to make it stop and go the other way to show yourself control. Here's the battle, you've already got it spinning one direction, though it took work to get it there, it now SEEMs as its going by its self. Now you are attempting to stop and change direction, 60% of the time(Remeber, don't let that fool you, this is on demand) your attempt will END up working, but 50% of the time it does work it takes again only a few seconds with ocasional problems of it to stoping and going the direction you want for a few turns to not a whole turn then quickly snaps back the other way in a steady good spin. the other 50% you may just get it to stop, and get stuck, it will just twitch, but if you try to get it going the way it was origanly it will start going again. But, it only took me 1-2 months to get to this level of control, safely 99% of the time i had it spinning and attempted to change its direction i saw instant results of the attempt, weather it stayed the same direction but slowed down(10%), or stoped and twitched(45%), or did the go my direction and snap back(45%). Its kinda hard to explain, i can safely say i saw impressive control results. I just simply have to much control over it for it to be fake, i can't believe in it being fake for that reason.

Also, at every attempt to keep it spinning once going, once going, i could keep it spinning at a good to fast pace as long as i wanted to, without ever trying to change its direction. Like i said which revealed you have to overcome what you expect. Once you have it going you hardly have to focus at all, meaning you can keep going and going and going, hardly trying. Only when you attempt to change it does it start giving you trouble, but also like i said, you quickly see results of you trying to change it. Its really funny when your trying and it goes the way you want half a turn to a few turns then snaps back in full steady speed,in its original direction. It shows a definite connection with what you expect, thats why i say it like that, in my experince with this thing control is a battle, but a battle you can win.

To tell you the truth, it made me laugh sometimes, because its so amazing, after doing it so long(2 weeks for me) you can tell its a battle with what you expect. You actually KNOW what its going to do on some unexplainble in words level. Like taking a peak at what you expect and trying to change it, yet its difficult to overcome, but your always a split seond ahead when in intense focus. If you would only see for yourself you would know what i mean. I don't want to convince you to believe me, i want to convince you to believe you by putting my absurd claims to the test. If you can't believe you, who can you believe?

Ofcourse these aren't accurate percentages, they are the best of my memory. Like i say time and time again, the control aspect is why people continusly have this battle of weather its worth looking at or not, its why i insist there is somethign in here. And it sucks with such a easy test to perform, anyone can see it if they only really attempted to gain control and really pratice, it dosen't take much pratice.
 
Ofcourse everything i mentioned above was from private experiments, me alone, after i got as good as i ever was. At that time the only time i didn't get instant results of it moving when in focus was around other people, trying to show them and feeling like a fool. In those cases sometimes i could get it to spin one direction and like i said when you get it going its easy, but in most cases it would just twitch when around other, which also makes curious because i was nervous and had low confidence that i could perform on demand for them, and would end up looking dumb as dirt(Anxiety Problems). Besides that only 1% of the time it did nothing when i attempted, i say that because i recal 2 times, i did the shit so many times its un guessable, like i said a year and a half. Other than those times i always saw some form of instant results, and more offten responsive to my specific request
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Infundibulum, thats why i wish you would break out the old pin wheel, its results can say way more than i can. Once you see you have some sort of control of what its doing, and it dosen't take long when attempting to gain control, like i said, 2 weeks proved it for me, mutiple times a day, avg of 15 min per session, you will be just be another person insisting it needs to be looked into. Makeing the same argument i'm making, that the control can't be denied. You would say WOW!, thats interesting, and say hey burnt, this shit actually does work on some level, but do you really think burnt will believe that just because you say it? So now your trying to say, just give it a fair shot and try to gain control, but will it be easy to convince him to even try?

I know you probably want, i know you don't believe there's anything there, but i wish you would so i could watch the events i just explained unfold, it would be quite ammusing. Also showing the harm of skeptism, because you are skeptical of this, and he is too, but then your mind is changed, and you tell him, hes still a skeptic, and will be very hard to convince, even though he saw this event unfold. Proving that in a world of science where skeptism is allowed, progress will be slowed down because every skeptic has to be shown for themselfs before science can move on. I know you say you need proof, the problem is the proff is there, you just have to check it out so you know, then try to explain it. People forget that you can get the same results with curious, without the interference of personal opinion causing you to over-look and pre-judge. You may assume thats what i have done, but its not, i simply see some form of control and i wish a scientist would look into it. Anyone can learn to control it, i'm not gifted in special abillities. I do not talk weird or wear funny hats and read palms, i don't believe in thoughs forms of paranormal. If its real then its explainable by science and dosen't require being weird for it to work. To notice it is to prove that science needs to work on it to prove its normal human activity. I admit, the weirdo's do make it seem unbelievable, but there are some of us out here that have a strong point to prove, and its not to get your money. I still don't see why there not looking further into remote viewing, the say manipulation, why can't we conduct experiments without manipulation, if you think it was manipulated do the damn thing over with different people conducting the experiments. What kind of since does that make, we now cant conduct experiments without manipulation?


See, i don't want to convince people to believe it, i want them to take a better look at it. Investagate the control aspect, give that an explanation, open another door for science. I want people to do it as well, but mainly i'm speaking of scientists to reexamine this experiment. Easily learn to control it and see what thats all about, how is that part possible, begin to work on explanations for that.

Ha, a funny thing, the OBE i said i had, in another topic on this site, i was in the bathroom sitting in indian style with the pin wheel about 5-6ft away. Finishing up on pratice. I just pratice till i get bored with it, or i did then anyway. Anyway, the pin wheel was the object i zoomed up on in the OBE. I think i mentioned it in "DMT and Aliens". Most of my experiments where conducted in my bathroom. Alternating between using hands and not. The only difference i noticed in using hands is being able to get it spinning at incredible speeds, and at a distance it still spun at a good speed, just never like that. Weather hands where used or not never effected the amount of control or activity, it just was slower at moving.
 
Anyway, my OCD is firing up and i'm sitting at the computer talking/thinking about this too much. I will check for replies tomorrow, and maybe write a quick response. I have honstly stated my own experinces with the pin wheel and why i think it needs to be looked into further for a good scientific explanation on the control aspect. I have gave good suggestions of how hypnosis could be the key to unlocking these mysteries by attempting to quickly build the upmost confedince in the pin wheel experiment, to advance a person to something no one can confuse, like moving a coin on a table. If this works like i suggest it works then this WILL work and is what someone needs to test. There is no reason they should not advance with the help of hypnosis unless its not real, i just don't see that being the case.
 
Infundibulum said:
I agree totally. There are indeed so many things to learn. Both for the physical world and ourselves. And maybe as you say more effort should be put in trying to explain these experiments. We can go on theorising for hours and hours and for every one of my arguments you would come with a counterargument, till the end of time.

Telekinesis is an interesting subject, I totally agree. But my objection is about those who try to explain the telekinesis as a result of some "psychic" forces emanating from the himan brain or body.
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The so called "psychic" forces are only called that because its relationship with science it yet unknown, people just seem to get mislead when its called that. It says nothing about what forces it could be or how it works, the only expample i can think of would be EMWs/EMFs. Though you see my point, just because people call it psychic force dosen't mean its not forces we already know about with names of there own.
 
How about this, i imagine you have more knowledge in this field than me. I want you to assume for a minute that i am correct about the control and cand do it at a distance of 5ft. What forces can come at play here, some how the brain has to have a path, or does it already have a path. What forces are spread widely that the brain could possibly interact with? Think about it and see what explanations you could come up with. So far to me its seems very weak but does work, but i don't think it has to do with strength but cofidence and what you expect. And it can be hard to expect something to do what you want it to in the same manner that if you kick a can you expect it to move. But then again it could be just some unevolved talent thats not worthy of controling anything unless its near zero friction. Think about thoughs and give me a couple of quick theorys.
 
Well, I do not like to start theorising on hypothetical forces or what these may be. This is not much of science. The first step is to put the wheel into some tests. Trying to move it in a controlled environment, as much as force-free as possible. So, the first step is to establish that moving the wheel is due to the presence of a human being (as a sidenote think what else other than a human being could make it move; a plant maybe?)

Then, do some measurements. How the kinetic state of the wheel can change according to "will" or "ordering" stimuli from the human subject? How good is a correlation between the human ordering the wheel to move and the wheel actually moving?

And finally try to test how other factors can affect "interaction" between the human subject and the wheel. What is the maximum distance at which a human subject can affect the wheel? 1 meter? 2 meters? Can it be affected if the subject is in a different room? etc etc.

After such or similar observations are recorder, then one can start theorising about the nature of these powers. But nothing can be really said for now. Your personal observations may be an indication of something but they are not proof for the moment of anything. The anecdotal indications are pretty poor unless they put in some kind of test. And of course I am not implying that you are lying or whatever, I believe that what you report is as honest as fuck.

But the human mind is a bloody trick in itself. It is the "worst lawyer" (as my dentist once said), if it want to prove something it will certainly prove it to itself. Even with unconscious selective dropping of information that contradict one's theory. And yes, even scientists are pestered by this. That is a good reason why trying to think as objectively as possible, always doing double-blind studies and taking other people's opinions is vital when postulating "facts"
 
heres one.. when my mother was pregant with my brother, she had a dream about his birth. She was in the hospital just after he was born, they told her it was a boy(she didn't know). She had had a sea section becasue his umbilical cord was wrapped around his neck and constrictiing his breathing..as soon as he was out the nurse took him away without fully explaining any of this to my mother because he want doin well and they had to keep him alive. He was put into an incubator(not sure what that exactly is) for many hours until my mother could see him.. he did turn out fine.

The thing is that this is EXACTLY what happened durring his birth, she said that she had even recognised the nurse from her dream.. I just talked to her on the phone to confirm this actually :d

I also had a great grandmother who read tea leaves for people, and my grandmother once told me a story about when some man had come to see her,and she told him to definatily not get ona certain flight that he was scheduled for because she thought it was going to crash..not sure if she tried to contact the airlines, but it apparently did crash and he was not on it. He came back to thank her.. this one is much harder to have any confirmation on though as I never did know her myself.
 
I have an unusual talent. I can tell the sex of an unborn baby with 100% accuracy. I don't know how I do it. Somehow, I can just sense it. Possibly there's a scent given off by the woman that I'm picking up subconsciously.

I think all real paranormal phenomena has a scientific explanation. If it can’t be explained with science, it’s only because there’s a gab in our knowledge.

It is possible that people are connected telepathically. After all, brain waves can be detected far outside the brain.

Did you ever watch a school of fish? They all twist and turn at the right times and yet they don’t communicate by any means we can understand. However, they must be in communication at some level or they would all collide into each other. They aren’t the smartest of creatures.

It’s likely that there are waves extending far out beyond our brains, much like radio waves can extend for many miles. We just haven’t found them yet.

Science is making discoveries all the time. Before radio waves were discovered, people would have thought it was impossible to talk to another person on the other side of the planet without a wire, but now we use cell phones all the time and do just that. It’s possible the brain can do a similar same thing.
 
SWIM had what seemed to be "remote viewing" while under the effects of 5-MeO-DMT one time. He saw people talking in what seemed to be a break room. It looked 100% real. They were talking about ordinary boring daily stuff. They were people SWIM never saw before. They were speaking American English, so it was likely some place in the US. SWIM came out of the experience and went back in a few times to see the exact same people in the same place still talking.

It was very weird. It looked 100% real. SWIM’s visions and dreams don’t look like that. His visions are usually rapidly shifting and colorful with fantastic fractals and the like, and his dreams always have him in it or are somehow associated with him, and are usually constantly drifting from one subject to the next. This was not like either. It seemed to be real, concrete, just like normal reality is.
 
I think i know sort of what you are talking about.. One night about 3 years ago I was spending the summer surfing, I was staying in an old growth forest camping with my friend in tents near a beach. We both consumed about 3 grams of dried cubes, and just after the onset I sort of fell asleap..except i wasnt asleap..I was viewing(I wasnt really even there at all it seemed) a scene going on between a little girl and her grandfather. They were working on a farm and the grandfather was talking to the girl teaching her something..

This went on for a few mintues until I woke up out of it and was tripping. Durrign the initial experience there was no geometry, no psychedelic colours or feelings at all associated with tripping, it was VERY disassociative. I felt like I had just witnessed some part of mundane reality going on somewhere else on the planet I had never been to..VERY strange

Its also interesting about brain waves being detected outside of the brain..sometimes I wonder if this could explain OBE's. Like maybe our brain can send our conciousness out much farther than we currently know of, with the brain acting as some sort of server. In that case we would still need the brain fully functioning to be able to experience such states, which would discount the claim of such experiences being proof of "afterlife"..

I have also had one other similar experience with an aya brew using cappi and chali, this time again very dissociative, except this time it was like I was either viewing another planet or possabily another point in earth history, with giant blue pyramid structures. Again it was like "I" wasnt even there, I didnt even realize what had happened until i awoke out of it.
 
69ron :Did you ever watch a school of fish? They all twist and turn at the right times and yet they don’t communicate by any means we can understand. However, they must be in communication at some level or they would all collide into each other. They aren’t the smartest of creatures



Very interesting, i never even thought of those types of examples. Perhaps that would be another way to begin proving these paranormal things exsist. Just take a look at these examples you can see in nature and try to figure out how there communicating. I still hope someone helps me with this and takes another look at the pin wheel, you could also do studies on the fish as maybe it could give a clue of how it works or what it is. Does anyone here know about the Hutchison Effect, discovered by canadian physicist John Hutchison. If you don't know about it don't waste anymore time, this is truly amazing. His disoveries make me think it has something to do with electromagnetics. Either way, with his machine he managed to get a board to slide through a peice of metal bar, when he cut the machine off the board and bar merged together without molecular displacement, in other words the wood and metal fused together with no swelling. He also sent metal sample out that melted at room tempature after the "H Effect" was put on it. Look it up, a must read!
 
I see why there aren't much studies into these things now. It took a minute. Its like this, Stanford Research Institute, which normaly has nothing to do with paranormal shit of anykind, conducted many experiments with remote viewing, they did it for a couple of years and found it to be 90% accurate in double blind studies. The CIA went to look at there claims and took up on the studies themselfs because they saw something worth wild, they refined there own method(That should tell the dumb asses something) called CRV, The CIA has continued praticing every since. Now, the skeptics come in and say, no, you didn't prove anything, i think you cheated on your results. So now its controversial, here is the lesson you should learn. If you can prove something paranormal through tests and results expect some fagget to come in and claim you manipultated the experiments and results. Why would SRI want to manipulate results? If it didn't work why does the CIA continue to use and pratice it? I know some on this site also believe its controversial, i'm not saying anything about you, but i don't see how you can't see what i see. Why would SRI want to manipulate the results to make it appear its real, if it was proved real then more looking into it would have happend, which if SRI lied it would have showed up latter when it was found false. So to assume that means you can't get the dick out of your ass long enough to hear someone's discovery out. Again, not speaking to anyone direcly, it just angers me in a way.
 
In the case of something being unkown to science, yet you can prove its existence without explanation, you are supose to treat it like normal activity that has an explanation that you have to find. Not be so gay as to say because it dosen't have an explanation its existence isn't proved. If you know anything then you should be aware that typicaly things are found to exist before science has an explanation, science studies it then gives it an explanation. To assume its proof of existence is not valid without an explanation means you need to go back to school. Because things usally get discovered, then we work on how to explain its relationship with science. Whitout ever acknowledging its existence you will never even try to explain it or look for the connection to science. This is where we are now.
 
Hell, i may just decide to become an independent scientist and go for the answers and proof myself. I believe i can do it, personaly i think its simple enough that i wounder how it hasn't been done. I believe i can show people what they've been wanting to see, unmistakable evidence.
 
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