Phalaris arundinacea & extraction

[concombres]

This stuffs everywhere. I would, however, like to take plenty of time before the stuff starts growing again to put more research into the process & to make sure i have the correct plant & not one of its close cousins. Ill try and find a camera to post some pictures of it here.

Any feedback, opinions, tips, etc. from members who have experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help i recieve here.

 

[Dozuki]

Until the grass actually flowers, it can be very difficult to positively identify. If some of the seed heads are left over from the last flowering, this can help.

Another way to tentatively identify this grass is to look for the presence of a ligule. It should be about 1/4" long on a mature plant and translucent. If you pull the leaf sheath away from the stalk, you should also be able to see horizontal lines/veins in the leaf sheath. It can appear as a 'brick' pattern of sorts. If these two match up, then there is a pretty good chance that it is Phalaris. I've identified it this way in the winter and then confirmed it with TLC.

I would suggest using an A/B procedure for extraction. Extracting with MeOH or EtOH first and then acidifying the alcohol fraction will help to separate the chlorophyll. Using a buchner funnel for filtration helps things greatly.

 

[Tannenberg]

This stuffs everywhere. I would, however, like to take plenty of time before the stuff starts growing again to put more research into the process & to make sure i have the correct plant & not one of its close cousins. Ill try and find a camera to post some pictures of it here.

Any feedback, opinions, tips, etc. from members who have experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help i recieve here.

I try to go the same way... I live in Europe.. so no grass right now. I have also researched a lot of information for extraction teks / analysis...

My opinion, based on the things i have read, is a A/B extraction with defatting step with naphtha of the acidic solution. So 1. acidify -> defat with naphta -> basify -> extract freebase with naphtha.

After that i would use a recrystalization step as needed with naphtha in the freezer.

Because i am a liitle bit feared of the gramine contents in phalaris i would afterwards test my crystals with TLC and may do a chromatic fractioning in a pipe with silica gel.. But don´t know wheter this is really needed, and there are only trace ammounts of gramine visible in TLC..

There are also some seeds of a phalaris type that has a really high amount of DMT, but i don´t know where to get them. Would be helpfull if anyonse could send me a PM about this or post some sources.. (AQ1 / Big medicine and so on)

 

[concombres]

I've done a little more research & confirmed my suspicion. I have been surrounded by the world's most potent psychedellic and entactogen my entire life and never even knew it.

Now i have another phalaris species id like to confirm & use separately when i get the chance (phalaris brachystachys) which seems to grow hordes in my yard in the summer. I havn't put much research into identifying brachystachys yet but from the look of it thats what iv'e been seeing unless theres some other look-a-likes that are common in michigan.

Next is the perfection, practice, and personalization of my tek.

I know the basic A/B format pretty well due to extensive experience with otc cough products.(In short this just means i'm very farmilliar with the idea of using naptha and ammonia for an extract.) However, my focus for dmt is a tek that is easy for anyone to preform and as natural as it can possibly get. By natural i mean replacing the acids and bases with common things such as lemon juice, vinegar, etc. which are much safer for ingestion in the event of accidental impurities and runs little to no risk of explosion or fires.

 

[endlessness]

The thing is some phalaris brachystachys can have gramine, so make sure you extract it in a way that separates dmt from gramine. Naphtha should do it, but if you want a more "natural" solvent, try limonene-based teks. Preliminary info posted in the substance testing subforum shows room temperature limonene pulls very little gramine, so you can try to use that, in a tek like BLAB or Amorfati or Q2121.

 

[concombres]

Okay so im running into some trouble with my extraction process. I'm not sure exactly what's throwing me off so i'll post the notes i have about the process and see if anyone can help.

plant: phalaris arundinacae
Extraction method: acid/base
-defatting for a better burning end product and higher purity
-recrystallization- I need to look into this step to better understand it before a decision is made.
-Wash with naptha several times

Acid: White vinegar (acetic acid)
Base: ammonia? (The tek i based my process on said ammonium hydroxide, its fine to use ammonia from cleaning asile in the local grocery store right?)
Solvent: naptha

Process:
1. Freeze plant matter overnight & thaw. Repeat three times. (to kill the cell walls of the plant)
2. Throw the frozen plant matter into a blender after the third freezing
3. Add enough water to cover about an inch or 2 over the plant material
4. Add acid (in my case vinegar) & wait a few hours until the ph level (tested with ph paper) reaches 5
5. Strain off and keep liquid.
6. Add naptha for defatting (Anyone have a specific volume they would reccommend?)
7. shake & let the layers saparate
8. Separate the solvent layer from the aqueous solution using a separatory funnel, discarding the solvent layer (Any ideas for a makeshift version other than plastic bags?)
9. Add base to solution a little at a time & shake (i think i saw somewhere to stir or swirl becasue shaking forms emulsions? let me know if this is bad info)until ph is about 9
10. From my understanding, dmt is now in freebase form
11. Add solvent (naptha) to the solution (which is now a mixture of vinegar, water and alkaloids if i'm correct) keeping lid closed so nothing evaporates.
12. Heres where the tek i read lost me, it says do 4 extractions, one at 24 hours and then at 3week intervals shaking daily. does he mean the whole process step 1-12 needs to be repeated with the same plant material? i have no clue whats going on in this step.
13. pour your solvent layer into a pyrex baking dish and let the solvent evap off leaving you with gummy dmt to scrape.

The process is my interpretation of this tek

In theory, once that 12th step is figured out would the method i described above be correct? before i actually go out and try this i want to make sure i fully and completely understand what it is i'm doing and how to do it.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Okay so im running into some trouble with my extraction process. I'm not sure exactly what's throwing me off so i'll post the notes i have about the process and see if anyone can help.

11. Add solvent (naptha) to the solution (which is now a mixture of vinegar, water and alkaloids if i'm correct) keeping lid closed so nothing evaporates.
>12. Heres where the tek i read lost me, it says do 4 extractions, one at 24 hours and then at 3week intervals shaking daily. does he mean the whole process step 1-12 needs to be repeated with the same plant material? i have no clue whats going on in this step.
13. pour your solvent layer into a pyrex baking dish and let the solvent evap off leaving you with gummy dmt to scrape.

In theory, once that 12th step is figured out would the method i described above be correct? before i actually go out and try this i want to make sure i fully and completely understand what it is i'm doing and how to do it.

Sounds like a good enough method to me. Do the four extractions from the original soultion. Add the naptha to the original bassified alkoloid aquious solution and roll/swirl it, dont shake! emulsions are no fun! Decant and repeat. Order a sep funnel, a worthy investment, or you could get creative with a syringe. Play with the amount of solvent you use, you'll find the sweet spot. Better to use too much than too little right? Crystalization is easy. Just combine and evaporate the majority of your DMT:naptha put it in a small pyrex dish the lid on and throw it in the freezer. You will have nice crystals instead of gunk, it's worth it.

 

[Dozuki]

Your outline sounds close but there are a couple little details that might help:

Steps 2, 3, and 4 can all be done at once: Make up an acid solution that is pH 3 or so. I would suggest an acid other than vinegar or acetic. The acetate salts are somewhat soluble in DCM, CHCl3 and toluene and I suspect that they may be somewhat soluble in other organics such as naphtha. I need to test this sometime to be sure. However, I know they are soluble in the first 3 solvents.

Add enough of this acid solution to the grass in the blender just enough to cover and then a bit more. Pulse the blender on/off for 5 minutes or so to chop the material and extract the alkaloids (as their salts). You probably want to watch how much you blend it tho as the finer the grass particles become, the more difficult it will be to filter.
Filter the grass and keep the liquid. Put the filtrate back in the blender and repeat 2 more times (for a total of 3 extractions). Combine the acid solutions, filtering *VERY* well each time.

6-8 is a defat, and should be done a minimum or about 4-6 times with naphtha. You will probably be pulling mostly chlorophyll out of the solution as well as fats, lipids, and oils. You know you are done when the solvent no longer takes on color, and then you should probably do it one more time. You want to use about 1/10 the amount of solvent as you have acid solution as a rough idea. After this, the acid solution should be an orangish/tan color and no longer green. Save yourself a lot of hassle and buy a sep. funnel and using constant inversions for 5 minutes is good. Shaking is a bad idea due to emulsions.

11 and 12 is just like the defat, only this time it is extracting the alkaloids (as free base alkaloids). Again, you will probably want to do this 5-10 times with naphtha. However, there won't be much noticeable color change in the solvent this time. There isn't really any reason to wait a week between each extraction. 5 minutes of careful inversions should wok fine. If you want to hang onto the basic solution for a week and do the last extraction then, there wouldn't really be any harm in it. This is not the whole procedure done 5-10 times, just the addition of the solvent to the basic aqueous solution and then separation of the solutions and the solvent saved.


BTW, it is more likely that you are finding P. canariensis rather than P. brachystacys according to the USDA. This is an escaped cultvar from bird seed and should still be viable.

If you havn't already, read the 'Phalaris, the way of the future thread' for a lot more info.

 

[concombres]

Your outline sounds close but there are a couple little details that might help:

Steps 2, 3, and 4 can all be done at once: Make up an acid solution that is pH 3 or so. I would suggest an acid other than vinegar or acetic. The acetate salts are somewhat soluble in DCM, CHCl3 and toluene and I suspect that they may be somewhat soluble in other organics such as naphtha. I need to test this sometime to be sure. However, I know they are soluble in the first 3 solvents.

How hard would it be for a civillian to walk into a store and purchase various amounts of the chemicals mentioned above, would the sale of any of these raise any red flags or suspicions of the U.S. government (are they watched), and lastly, what type of store would one go to if he wanted to obtain any of them?

I may want to upgrade the chemicals i use in my extraction process once i get the hang of it and gain a little more confidence in my chemist's abilities.

On another note i was looking at a msds sheet for dcm & it specifically listed dmt removal as a use :surprised

Save yourself a lot of hassle and buy a sep. funnel and using constant inversions for 5 minutes is good.

Science equipment is another area where i'm worried about accidentally purchasing something the government watches closely & ending up on a list. How much would one of these run me in USD? and is it possible to obtain without ordering over the internet?

 

[concombres]

:x It has come to my attention that the plants i thought to be phalaris arundinacea may actually be typha latifolia.
In the summer there is typha latifolia growing in close proximity with what i suspect to be phalaris. & i can't differentiate between the blades.
It seems to me though philaris arundinacea is more of a grass where as typha latifolia is more of a stalk type plant. BUT based on the way the "cat tail" part on top of typha breaks apart & gets fuzzy im really starting to question if what i thought was philaris is just dead typha and the "cat tail" part has started to fall off & separate.

 

[Ford Prefect]

[/quote]How hard would it be for a civillian to walk into a store and purchase various amounts of the chemicals mentioned above, would the sale of any of these raise any red flags or suspicions of the U.S. government (are they watched), and lastly, what type of store would one go to if he wanted to obtain any of them?

I may want to upgrade the chemicals i use in my extraction process once i get the hang of it and gain a little more confidence in my chemist's abilities.

On another note i was looking at a msds sheet for dcm & it specifically listed dmt removal as a use :surprised

Science equipment is another area where i'm worried about accidentally purchasing something the government watches closely & ending up on a list. How much would one of these run me in USD? and is it possible to obtain without ordering over the internet?
[/quote]

Don't buy everything in one place at one time. Do your research on your chemicals. Learn what they are and how they are used. Protect yourself with knowledge. Then figure the most logical place to buy the stuff. You don't have to go to a chem. supplier for everything. With the acception of the sep. funnel, if you dont want to buy it online that is.

What do you mean by "upgrade"? What questionable chemicals are you useing?

 

[concombres]

By upgrade i meant using a stronger acids and bases which are better suited for the extraction rather than vinegar and ammonia from the cleaning aisle in walmart.

 

[concombres]

revised & organized version:

ACIDIFY
1. freeze plant matter overnight & thaw (do this 3times)
2. throw it in the blender chop it up, then add enough water to cover your plant matter over by about an inch
3. add your acid & bring the PH up to around 5.
4. filter the liquid & keep it in a glass jar, repeat steps 1-3 a few more times (i'd reccommend 3-5)on the plant matter after you filter, i would use separate jars for each pull.
DEFAT
5. add your solvent for defatting, around 10% of your total liquid after step 4.
6. swirl/roll your solution (shaking will cause emulsions) then let it sit so the layers can separate.
7. separate the solvent layer from the solution (the solvent will have your fats & gunk in it & probably be on top)
repeat steps 5-7 until your solvent doesn't take on color & your acid is orangish
BASIFY
8. add your base in small increments & swirl/stir in slowly until you ph is around 9 or 10. your dmt is now in freebase form (aka smokeable) but it's still dissolved in a solution
WASH/RECRYSTALIZE
9. add around 10% of your solution in solvent again, let your layers separate again.
10. keep the solvent layer, do this 9-10 times.
11. evaporate off your solvent in a pyrex baking dish
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
materials needed -
acid: white vinegar
base: sodium carbonate
solvent: naptha
litmus paper
mason jars
pyrex baking dish (like your mom makes brownies in)
razorblade for scraping up the dmt at the end

 

[bobosmradek]

can i use sodium hydroxide (NaOH) for base? ...its 99% pure cristal powder... any health risks regarding NaOH as base ?

 

[Malignot]

I know that this is kind of a dead thread, but I just wanted to add this as a response to the above because it hadn't been answered. Don't EVER use 99% lye. EVER. The 1% is usually a silicate and must be at least partially soluble in naptha as it will effect (negatively and quite distinctively) your spice.

can i use sodium hydroxide (NaOH) for base? ...its 99% pure cristal powder... any health risks regarding NaOH as base

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I know that this is kind of a dead thread, but I just wanted to add this as a response to the above because it hadn't been answered. Don't EVER use 99% lye. EVER. The 1% is usually a silicate and must be at least partially soluble in naptha as it will effect (negatively and quite distinctively) your spice.

Source for this information?

How will (presumably) sodium silicate dissolve in naphtha?
Isn't the 1% far more like to be sodium carbonate?
Usually a silicate? What is the 1% on the less usual occasions?
Is the silicate added deliberately, and if so, why?
How does this silicate "[a]ffect your spice"?

In summary, your claim is pure horseshit.

Grasses themselves contain silicate so by your reasoning we're screwed before even starting.

 

[SHYBZY]

ha ha peeing into the abyss. :lol:

 

[SHYBZY]

ha ha peeing into the abyss. :lol:

 

[downwardsfromzero]

ha ha peeing into the abyss. :lol:

You been smokin' grass or sumthin'?