Jagube, I can't say I know; it's a guess based on the things I have read.
I might be interested in getting it tested, thanks for the suggestion.
I might be interested in getting it tested, thanks for the suggestion.
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Phalaris Project
- Thread starter dithyramb
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After some integration and research, I have come to the conclusion that the disturbing rise in blood pressure effect from aquatica 1 is caused most likely by tyramines - n methyl tyramine and hordenine (dimethyltyramine), rather than 5 MeO DMT.
I can write why I ruled out 5 MeO DMT but I will reserve that to another post.
According to these studies, n methyl tyramine is the major alkaloid in many populations of aquatica, and hordenine can also be found in huge amounts. Both are known to increase blood pressure, and a combination of NMT (n methyl tyramine) with mao a inhibitors is known to be dangerous.
www.publish.csiro.au
İs there any angelic soul out there who could give me hints about how to separate or break down these 2 tyramines in a brew (crude extract) of grass, possibly without using lab chemicals?
So far I have no reason to believe that other components like gramine might be causing toxicity. I prefer to keep the plant as whole/intact as possible to preserve it's unique spirit and healing.
The spirit of aquatica 1 has huge healing potential, it is powerfully working through me already. Rendering it safe for long term use would be a dream come true for me...
it is highly visionary - more similar to chacruna than chaliponga, but not edgy like chacruna, and more grounded. Speaking Truth. True medicine.
I can write why I ruled out 5 MeO DMT but I will reserve that to another post.
According to these studies, n methyl tyramine is the major alkaloid in many populations of aquatica, and hordenine can also be found in huge amounts. Both are known to increase blood pressure, and a combination of NMT (n methyl tyramine) with mao a inhibitors is known to be dangerous.
Comparative levels of dimethyltryptamine- and tyramine-related alkaloid toxins in Australian cultivars and some wild populations of Phalaris aquatica
Phalaris (Phalaris aquatica L.) is a temperate perennial grass which occasionally causes toxicity in livestock. Immunoassays (ELISAs) were used to measure the level of the dimethyltryptamine and related alkaloid group (TRYP) and the tyramine-related group of alkaloids (TYR) in cultivars...
www.publish.csiro.au
İs there any angelic soul out there who could give me hints about how to separate or break down these 2 tyramines in a brew (crude extract) of grass, possibly without using lab chemicals?
So far I have no reason to believe that other components like gramine might be causing toxicity. I prefer to keep the plant as whole/intact as possible to preserve it's unique spirit and healing.
The spirit of aquatica 1 has huge healing potential, it is powerfully working through me already. Rendering it safe for long term use would be a dream come true for me...
it is highly visionary - more similar to chacruna than chaliponga, but not edgy like chacruna, and more grounded. Speaking Truth. True medicine.
Here is a summary of my study so far...
The first aquatica I came upon, which I am calling "aquatica 1" turned out to be super potent however with a potentially dangerous blood pressure raising side effect when combined with rue. Masculine, colorful and visionary, grounded spirit.
Aquatica 2, harvested from another area in a wheat field turned out weak on one try and I haven't tried it again.
Aquatica 3 - the unique "Aquatica/Truncata" - felt very warm, loving, and clear but not with a strong DMT feel on my first trial. I will continue to get to know it.
The brachystachys I have found, I have yet to properly test, I drank 10g fresh once and seemed to give a hint of DMT.
Paradoxa 1, harvested from the same habitat as aquatica 2 gave a strong effect with rue but completely colorless/gray and cold in feeling/spirit. I am guessing it to be mostly or all 5 MeO DMT. Smoking the leaves is psychoactive.
The first aquatica I came upon, which I am calling "aquatica 1" turned out to be super potent however with a potentially dangerous blood pressure raising side effect when combined with rue. Masculine, colorful and visionary, grounded spirit.
Aquatica 2, harvested from another area in a wheat field turned out weak on one try and I haven't tried it again.
Aquatica 3 - the unique "Aquatica/Truncata" - felt very warm, loving, and clear but not with a strong DMT feel on my first trial. I will continue to get to know it.
The brachystachys I have found, I have yet to properly test, I drank 10g fresh once and seemed to give a hint of DMT.
Paradoxa 1, harvested from the same habitat as aquatica 2 gave a strong effect with rue but completely colorless/gray and cold in feeling/spirit. I am guessing it to be mostly or all 5 MeO DMT. Smoking the leaves is psychoactive.
Today I went for a second harvest of aquatica 3 (aquatica/truncata).
The flowers colors and designs look very similar to brachystachys to me (of course they are much longer). Check out the photos. Phalaris brachystachys var. truncata comes to my mind, even though I don't know what that grass looks exactly like.
My second note is that this grass is physically more like a Reed than a grass. The stems are very thick, almost woody, and the leaves are very different from the other grass species and much more similar to the blades of phragmites - very thick and fibrous and feels like paper, straight, erect, and very long...
İt is generally a dark blue-green color.
As you can see the flowerheads can be quite fat as well as very slender. They can also be as small as 2cm long and up to over 16cm long. They sometimes have purple tinges on their tops.
The flowers colors and designs look very similar to brachystachys to me (of course they are much longer). Check out the photos. Phalaris brachystachys var. truncata comes to my mind, even though I don't know what that grass looks exactly like.
My second note is that this grass is physically more like a Reed than a grass. The stems are very thick, almost woody, and the leaves are very different from the other grass species and much more similar to the blades of phragmites - very thick and fibrous and feels like paper, straight, erect, and very long...
İt is generally a dark blue-green color.
As you can see the flowerheads can be quite fat as well as very slender. They can also be as small as 2cm long and up to over 16cm long. They sometimes have purple tinges on their tops.
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İntroducing "aquatica 4"
I am not sure if this is really an aquatica, perhaps it is P. minor or another species, İ am awaiting you phalaris masters' feedback.
İt is over a meter high on average, not over 120cm. The flowerheads are also a little shorter than regular aquatica - most seem to be 4-5 cm long, the longest I have seen is 6cm.
The clumps are not very robust, with few shoots.
I am not sure if this is really an aquatica, perhaps it is P. minor or another species, İ am awaiting you phalaris masters' feedback.
İt is over a meter high on average, not over 120cm. The flowerheads are also a little shorter than regular aquatica - most seem to be 4-5 cm long, the longest I have seen is 6cm.
The clumps are not very robust, with few shoots.
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I have not heard of amethystina growing here, chimp. Sorry for the late reply. Yes I feel I am living in some sort of phalaris capital. Thanks so much for all your help so far. 
Most definitely Phalaris Minor.
Safe travels!
Safe travels!
Thank you! I don't know about tryptamines yet, but I feel the spirit of the "truncata" is really enchanting me, speaking to me and healing me. I connect to it during harvesting and brewing.
According to this article (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031942200944327), beta carbolines and tryptamines are produced through the same pathways, which means that the likelihood of both existing together in a grass is high. İn other words, if there are beta carbolines, then the likelihood of tryptamines also found in this grass is high. "Truncata" definitely has beta carbolines, İ can recognize them.
2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline is mentioned as a beta carboline in Phalaris.
Apparently 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline is Tetrahydroharman from Russian Olive.
So gramine is a separate biochemical pathway from beta carbolines and tryptamines. What about tyramines like hordenine? I did not notice any sign of it in my first "truncata" brew.
According to this article (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031942200944327), beta carbolines and tryptamines are produced through the same pathways, which means that the likelihood of both existing together in a grass is high. İn other words, if there are beta carbolines, then the likelihood of tryptamines also found in this grass is high. "Truncata" definitely has beta carbolines, İ can recognize them.
2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline is mentioned as a beta carboline in Phalaris.
Apparently 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline is Tetrahydroharman from Russian Olive.
So gramine is a separate biochemical pathway from beta carbolines and tryptamines. What about tyramines like hordenine? I did not notice any sign of it in my first "truncata" brew.
There are generally 3 alkaloid phenotypes for Phalaris, the Tryptamine, MeO, and Gramine(T,MeO,G) groups.
Hordenine is usually higher in Arundinacea & Aquatica if it occurs in the grass at all.
Have you confirmed the grass is “Truncata”?
It may just be Aquatica with a long inflorescence.
It definitely does seem unique nonetheless.
Try growing the grass from seed side by side with the known Aquatica seed.
That will help you recognize their differences better.
Would take 1-2 months to be certain if one grass is Truncata and the other is Aquatica or if they’re both Aquatica.
For the Hordenine and Gramine occurrences I’m sure someone with a chemistry major could break down the hows and whys of it being in a plant better than I could.
The tyramine and tryptophan derived alkaloids in Phalaris grass can share biosynthetic pathways.
Hordenine is N,N-dimethyltyramine
Gramine is 3-dimethylaminomethylindole
pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
According to the wormatlas, tyrosine is converted to tyramine via a decarboxylation reaction by the enzyme tyrosine decarboxylase.
Tyrosine is the precursor to catecholamines and tyramine is a breakdown product of tyrosine. In the gut and during fermentation, tyrosine is decarboxylated to tyramine. During normal metabolism in humans and mammals tyramine is deaminated in the liver to an inactive metabolite.
However, when the hepatic monoamine oxidase is inhibited, the clearance of tyramine is blocked and circulating tyramine levels can increase. Elevated levels of tyramine can compete with tyrosine for transport across the blood–brain barrier where it can then enter adrenergic nerve terminals.
www.biosyn.com
Gramine biosynthesis:
Here are some articles on Phalaris Arundinacea alkaloids and the phenotypes they occur in as an example:
Article on gramine production in Barley:
Synthesis of Tryptophan from Gramine:
Note Lupanin was found to occur in Phalaris Arundinacea populations used as pasture grass a year ago maybe sooner than that, so always be aware that we don’t yet know each and every trace chemical occurring in these plants...
Gramine In Lupin:
Hordenine is usually higher in Arundinacea & Aquatica if it occurs in the grass at all.
Have you confirmed the grass is “Truncata”?
It may just be Aquatica with a long inflorescence.
It definitely does seem unique nonetheless.
Try growing the grass from seed side by side with the known Aquatica seed.
That will help you recognize their differences better.
Would take 1-2 months to be certain if one grass is Truncata and the other is Aquatica or if they’re both Aquatica.
For the Hordenine and Gramine occurrences I’m sure someone with a chemistry major could break down the hows and whys of it being in a plant better than I could.
The tyramine and tryptophan derived alkaloids in Phalaris grass can share biosynthetic pathways.
Hordenine is N,N-dimethyltyramine
Gramine is 3-dimethylaminomethylindole
Gramine
Gramine | C11H14N2 | CID 6890 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.
pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
According to the wormatlas, tyrosine is converted to tyramine via a decarboxylation reaction by the enzyme tyrosine decarboxylase.
Tyrosine is the precursor to catecholamines and tyramine is a breakdown product of tyrosine. In the gut and during fermentation, tyrosine is decarboxylated to tyramine. During normal metabolism in humans and mammals tyramine is deaminated in the liver to an inactive metabolite.
However, when the hepatic monoamine oxidase is inhibited, the clearance of tyramine is blocked and circulating tyramine levels can increase. Elevated levels of tyramine can compete with tyrosine for transport across the blood–brain barrier where it can then enter adrenergic nerve terminals.
Amino Acid Analysis of Tyramine
Amino acid analysis of Tyramine can be performed either with pre-column or post-column modification or labeling.
Gramine biosynthesis:
Here are some articles on Phalaris Arundinacea alkaloids and the phenotypes they occur in as an example:
Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout
Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants & analogs by Keeper of the Trout (full text) title page
erowid.org
Article on gramine production in Barley:
Synthesis of Tryptophan from Gramine:
Note Lupanin was found to occur in Phalaris Arundinacea populations used as pasture grass a year ago maybe sooner than that, so always be aware that we don’t yet know each and every trace chemical occurring in these plants...
Gramine In Lupin:
Oh dithyramb
The pictures above the Minor didn’t load for me last time I was logged on.
Were the long flowers all from the same patch?
Did you see any other inflorescences opening up like the flowers in
Pictures 4,11,12?
Because that would be Phalaris Arundinacea if the inflorescence branches out.
The “Brachystachys” look is the unique pattern present on all Phalaris species though is more faint or bold depending on the grass.
North American wild Arundinacea had fainter patterns on the inflorescence compared with the inflorescence of a strain like ‘Yugo Red’ which is also Arundinacea but had distinctly darker ‘Phalaris geometry’.
The Aquatica with long inflorescence are tricky because they look so similar to P. Arundinacea before it’s flower opens up.
P. Arundinacea is the most reed-like out of all the Phalaris species. It can be quite dense and sturdy.
Some of the grass in the photos look like Aquatica & Arundinacea. The last photos are definitely Minor.
Let me know if you’re able to find more flowers that are opening up. That will help us know precisely which Phalaris species this is.
The pictures above the Minor didn’t load for me last time I was logged on.
Were the long flowers all from the same patch?
Did you see any other inflorescences opening up like the flowers in
Pictures 4,11,12?
Because that would be Phalaris Arundinacea if the inflorescence branches out.
The “Brachystachys” look is the unique pattern present on all Phalaris species though is more faint or bold depending on the grass.
North American wild Arundinacea had fainter patterns on the inflorescence compared with the inflorescence of a strain like ‘Yugo Red’ which is also Arundinacea but had distinctly darker ‘Phalaris geometry’.
The Aquatica with long inflorescence are tricky because they look so similar to P. Arundinacea before it’s flower opens up.
P. Arundinacea is the most reed-like out of all the Phalaris species. It can be quite dense and sturdy.
Some of the grass in the photos look like Aquatica & Arundinacea. The last photos are definitely Minor.
Let me know if you’re able to find more flowers that are opening up. That will help us know precisely which Phalaris species this is.
Hey Chimp z, I have been finding more patches of the unique Phalaris in different areas, also on sea level. That flowerhead that appeared to be starting to open up also caught my attention. I have not found any other flower like that yet, including at sea level in which the season is ahead. Here are photos from today.
This grass is really magical, regardless of whether it has considerable amount of tryptamines or not...
This grass is really magical, regardless of whether it has considerable amount of tryptamines or not...
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İ know there is a common patterning in Phalaris flowers, but I understood that brachystachys is lighter in color and clearer with less dark stripes. Did I get that right?
And how do you distinguish minor from aquatica, other than from size - there is an overlap on size ranges? is forming weak clumps or growing solitarily a definite indicator that it is not aquatica?
And how do you distinguish minor from aquatica, other than from size - there is an overlap on size ranges? is forming weak clumps or growing solitarily a definite indicator that it is not aquatica?
Now I am exploring an area a few hours of distance away from my home.
Photo 1 - the tallest and most vigorous clump of paradoxa İ have seen so far.
Photo 2 - paradoxa fest... This grass is growing crazy dense in this area.
Photo 3 - a nice healthy patch of aquatica.
Photos 1 and 3 growing under the shade of a Liquidambar tree (it is a wetland area). How has shade affected the spirit of your phalaris grass?
Photo 1 - the tallest and most vigorous clump of paradoxa İ have seen so far.
Photo 2 - paradoxa fest... This grass is growing crazy dense in this area.
Photo 3 - a nice healthy patch of aquatica.
Photos 1 and 3 growing under the shade of a Liquidambar tree (it is a wetland area). How has shade affected the spirit of your phalaris grass?
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I have tried drinking the unique "truncata" on its own. As I felt from before, it is psychoactive by itself without a tryptamine feel, but with a smooth, loving beta carboline embrace. Speaks in dreams also...
That's some beautiful grass!
Are you able to snap some pictures of the roots of each of those?
The difference between P. Minor and Aquatica is you can cut the base of Aquatica and there is usually a red juice/sap that exudes. Phalaris Minor like P. Canariensis has winged glumes and has teeth on its glumes. Not actual teeth but little pointy jagged "teeth" between the glumes.
A way to distinguish P. Aquatica from P. Arundinacea is if the rhizomes are like a mat underground or shallow and sort of tuberous. Phalaris Arundinacea flowers are attached to branches rather than the main axis of the inflorescence.
Are you able to snap some pictures of the roots of each of those?
The difference between P. Minor and Aquatica is you can cut the base of Aquatica and there is usually a red juice/sap that exudes. Phalaris Minor like P. Canariensis has winged glumes and has teeth on its glumes. Not actual teeth but little pointy jagged "teeth" between the glumes.
A way to distinguish P. Aquatica from P. Arundinacea is if the rhizomes are like a mat underground or shallow and sort of tuberous. Phalaris Arundinacea flowers are attached to branches rather than the main axis of the inflorescence.
Thanks for reading, tregar!
I have done my second trial with the brachystachys that I found. This time 15g fresh. I couldn't find a lot of this grass for some reason. İt was successful, a moderate experience, deep, colorful, gentle. Came in waves like chali and also had a long onset like chali. The feel was similar to aquatica 1, but a bit more rounded and th color palette seemed to be dominated by purple and blue rather than the purple and green of aquatica 1. No side effects, no sign of any hordenine or n methyl tyramine. This grass was not so potent as 3 percent DMT, but this potency is also impressive and who knows how stronger it can get with stressing and during the fall.
I am appreciating the "more than dmt" spirit/experience of phalaris so far. There is a kind of smoothness, groundedness, and lovingness in aquatica and brachystachys which I have not experienced with other dmt bearing plants.
I have done my second trial with the brachystachys that I found. This time 15g fresh. I couldn't find a lot of this grass for some reason. İt was successful, a moderate experience, deep, colorful, gentle. Came in waves like chali and also had a long onset like chali. The feel was similar to aquatica 1, but a bit more rounded and th color palette seemed to be dominated by purple and blue rather than the purple and green of aquatica 1. No side effects, no sign of any hordenine or n methyl tyramine. This grass was not so potent as 3 percent DMT, but this potency is also impressive and who knows how stronger it can get with stressing and during the fall.
I am appreciating the "more than dmt" spirit/experience of phalaris so far. There is a kind of smoothness, groundedness, and lovingness in aquatica and brachystachys which I have not experienced with other dmt bearing plants.
Tony6Strings
Rising Star
dithyramb, are you in the PNW?