I have often heard that phalaris contains, besides DMT, some toxic subtsance (wich might be bufotenine). Since there is an incredible amount of phalaris growing around where i live, right now, i'd like to do some experiments with it. I wonder 1- if this would be wise, because if indeed, there are toxic substances i think i 'd rather stick with mimosa 2- what technique would be best with phalaris. Some people say you would only need to extract it with naphta and then evaporate the naphta, but maybe there are better ways.
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phalaris.
- Thread starter polytrip
- Start date
Gramine is the toxic substance to worry about. Some say that it's destroyed by heat so not a problem if one is smoking extract, but that's unsubstantiated.
For an extraction, I'd use an A/B with several defats.
For an extraction, I'd use an A/B with several defats.
magic clown
aka Slap Stick Sam
Even if Gramine does get destroyed by heat, I would still be wondering what it got destroyed into.
69ron
Rising Star
Gramine doesn’t have hallucinogenic effects and is slightly less toxic than DMT. Chances are you’re not going to be able to vaporize enough to reach toxic levels. Because it’s not hallucinogenic, it’s a good idea to remove it if possible.
The LD50 for gramine is 122 mg/kg ip (mouse). The LD50 for DMT is 110 mg/kg im mouse. The LD50 for 5-MeO-DMT 115 mg/kg ip (mouse). The LD50 for bufotenine is 200 mg/kg ip (mouse), and up to 300 mg/kg ip in some other animals.
A reliable source states that gramine is “soluble in alcohol, ether, toluene and chloroform, slightly soluble in acetone”. It’s also practically insoluble in water.
A not so reliable source says that it is “practically insoluble in petroleum ether.” So it shouldn’t much dissolve in naphtha (petroleum ether). So if that is correct, I wouldn’t worry too much about it if you use naphtha as the final non-polar solvent.
Some of these plants have bufotenine, and some people think they want to remove it.
Bufotenine is actually far less toxic than DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM vaporizes freebase bufotenine a lot at high doses and although it has more bodily effects than DMT or 5-MeO-DMT, it doesn’t feel any more toxic to SWIM. To SWIM, DMT feels more toxic, and actually is according to all the animal tests. The lack of noticeable bodily effects at hallucinogenic doses does not mean a drug is any less toxic. Bufotenine can cause flushing (slight reddening of the skin), but so can vitamin B3 (niacin). Excessive flushing from vitamin B3 can cause nausea and tension in the body, prickling sensations, etc., but is not considered dangerous. The flushing is caused by the small blood vessels in your skin dilating. Although flushing might be alarming to some people, it isn’t an indication of toxicity, it’s an indication of peripheral vasodilatation effects and nothing more. Most other psychedelics cause peripheral vasoconstriction, which is an opposite effect that can make you feel cold, look pale and sweaty, etc. Bufotenine’s vasodilatation effects are usually what scare people into thinking it’s somehow more toxic because a person might look a little more red than usual. Bufotenine is actually one of the few psychedelics that does this, and because of its unique vasodilatation effects it is often considered to be an aphrodisiac by some people (including SWIM). The other bodily effect bufotenine sometimes has, which is related to its vasodilatation effects, is the feeling of tension in the head or body and possibly nausea for the first few minutes after vaporizing it. Vitamin B3 can also cause this. As with Vitamin B3, bufotenine should not be combined with other peripheral vasodilators like Yohimbe or especially Viagra. DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, LSD, psilocybin, and most other psychedelics go very well with bufotenine because they have apposing peripheral vasoconstriction effects.
Bufotenine, is something you really don’t want to remove unless you are very sensitive to peripheral vasodilatation. Small amounts (about 5 mg) greatly increase the visual effects of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Taken alone, it’s more visual that either of those two at smaller doses. It’s peripheral vasodilatation effects, at worst are going to make you look slightly more red than normal and make you feel a little prickly (just like Vitamin B3) and cause slight nausea for a minute or two, but these vasodilatation effects quickly fade. Its visual effects and aphrodisiac effects are long lasting (up to 2 hours depending on the dose) and a real plus in SWIM’s book
Its visual effects are phenomenal. The best you can get, especially if combined with a little DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. When vaporized, the rapid vasodilatation effects are always uncomfortable for the first minute, and if enough is taken (10 mg or more), you’ll get slight nausea and prickly sensations (just like those from Vitamin B3) starting in the back of your head and then moving down through the body. These effects normally end after about 1-2 minutes before the visual effects begin.
Flushing is something that happens naturally during “Hot Flashes” and a little bit during normal exercise and is not considered dangerous.
If you’ve ever taken Vitamin B3 and experienced flushing from it, then you’ve experienced far more flushing than bufotenine can ever do even at very high doses. The main difference between flushing caused by taking Vitamin B3 orally and flushing caused by vaporizing bufotenine, is that vaporizing causes the effect very rapidly, and only for a few minutes, whereas taking Vitamin B3 orally can cause flushing that lasts an hour or so.
Bufotenine N-Oxide is not very hallucinogenic and is something you want removed. It is weaker than bufotenine and causes more flushing than bufotenine and almost no hallucinogenic effects at all. Bufotenine quickly oxidizes into bufotenine N-Oxide. In some plants nearly half of the bufotenine is present as bufotenine N-Oxide. The infamous bufotenine tests performed on prisoners that showed it had little or not hallucinogenic activity and mostly just flushing effects where likely the effects of bufotenine that oxidized into bufotenine N-Oxide before the tests were carried out. Bufotenine will oxidize into bufotenine N-Oxide in just a few days if the conditions are right.
Bufotenine has an XLogP of 1.6 and is insoluble in heptane (XlogP of 4.3) and naphtha. Bufotenine is soluble in more polar solvents like ether (XlogP of 0.9), chloroform (XlogP of 2.1), dichloromethane (XlogP of 1.5), etc.
Bufotenine N-Oxide has an XLogP of 1.3 and is extremely insoluble in heptane and naphtha. Bufotenine N-Oxide is soluble in ether, dichloromethane, and somewhat soluble in chloroform, but it’s more soluble in water and can be removed by water washing those solvents with pH 10 water.
It’s very easy to tell the difference between bufotenine and bufotenine N-Oxide by vaporization. Bufotenine at 5 mg produces very strong visual effects and no flushing, while it’s N-Oxide at 20 mg produces very slight visual effects and minor flushing.
Bufotenine N-Oxide can be converted into bufotenine by mixing it with excess zinc dust in pH 3 water, and then adjusting the pH to 9.5 and extracting freebase bufotenine with dichloromethane. This also works for 5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide and DMT N-Oxide. The N-Oxides are all more water soluble then their parent alkaloids. Because the N-Oxides are more water soluble they are all less hallucinogenic.
The LD50 for gramine is 122 mg/kg ip (mouse). The LD50 for DMT is 110 mg/kg im mouse. The LD50 for 5-MeO-DMT 115 mg/kg ip (mouse). The LD50 for bufotenine is 200 mg/kg ip (mouse), and up to 300 mg/kg ip in some other animals.
A reliable source states that gramine is “soluble in alcohol, ether, toluene and chloroform, slightly soluble in acetone”. It’s also practically insoluble in water.
A not so reliable source says that it is “practically insoluble in petroleum ether.” So it shouldn’t much dissolve in naphtha (petroleum ether). So if that is correct, I wouldn’t worry too much about it if you use naphtha as the final non-polar solvent.
Some of these plants have bufotenine, and some people think they want to remove it.
Bufotenine is actually far less toxic than DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM vaporizes freebase bufotenine a lot at high doses and although it has more bodily effects than DMT or 5-MeO-DMT, it doesn’t feel any more toxic to SWIM. To SWIM, DMT feels more toxic, and actually is according to all the animal tests. The lack of noticeable bodily effects at hallucinogenic doses does not mean a drug is any less toxic. Bufotenine can cause flushing (slight reddening of the skin), but so can vitamin B3 (niacin). Excessive flushing from vitamin B3 can cause nausea and tension in the body, prickling sensations, etc., but is not considered dangerous. The flushing is caused by the small blood vessels in your skin dilating. Although flushing might be alarming to some people, it isn’t an indication of toxicity, it’s an indication of peripheral vasodilatation effects and nothing more. Most other psychedelics cause peripheral vasoconstriction, which is an opposite effect that can make you feel cold, look pale and sweaty, etc. Bufotenine’s vasodilatation effects are usually what scare people into thinking it’s somehow more toxic because a person might look a little more red than usual. Bufotenine is actually one of the few psychedelics that does this, and because of its unique vasodilatation effects it is often considered to be an aphrodisiac by some people (including SWIM). The other bodily effect bufotenine sometimes has, which is related to its vasodilatation effects, is the feeling of tension in the head or body and possibly nausea for the first few minutes after vaporizing it. Vitamin B3 can also cause this. As with Vitamin B3, bufotenine should not be combined with other peripheral vasodilators like Yohimbe or especially Viagra. DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, LSD, psilocybin, and most other psychedelics go very well with bufotenine because they have apposing peripheral vasoconstriction effects.
Bufotenine, is something you really don’t want to remove unless you are very sensitive to peripheral vasodilatation. Small amounts (about 5 mg) greatly increase the visual effects of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Taken alone, it’s more visual that either of those two at smaller doses. It’s peripheral vasodilatation effects, at worst are going to make you look slightly more red than normal and make you feel a little prickly (just like Vitamin B3) and cause slight nausea for a minute or two, but these vasodilatation effects quickly fade. Its visual effects and aphrodisiac effects are long lasting (up to 2 hours depending on the dose) and a real plus in SWIM’s book
Its visual effects are phenomenal. The best you can get, especially if combined with a little DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. When vaporized, the rapid vasodilatation effects are always uncomfortable for the first minute, and if enough is taken (10 mg or more), you’ll get slight nausea and prickly sensations (just like those from Vitamin B3) starting in the back of your head and then moving down through the body. These effects normally end after about 1-2 minutes before the visual effects begin. Flushing is something that happens naturally during “Hot Flashes” and a little bit during normal exercise and is not considered dangerous.
If you’ve ever taken Vitamin B3 and experienced flushing from it, then you’ve experienced far more flushing than bufotenine can ever do even at very high doses. The main difference between flushing caused by taking Vitamin B3 orally and flushing caused by vaporizing bufotenine, is that vaporizing causes the effect very rapidly, and only for a few minutes, whereas taking Vitamin B3 orally can cause flushing that lasts an hour or so.
Bufotenine N-Oxide is not very hallucinogenic and is something you want removed. It is weaker than bufotenine and causes more flushing than bufotenine and almost no hallucinogenic effects at all. Bufotenine quickly oxidizes into bufotenine N-Oxide. In some plants nearly half of the bufotenine is present as bufotenine N-Oxide. The infamous bufotenine tests performed on prisoners that showed it had little or not hallucinogenic activity and mostly just flushing effects where likely the effects of bufotenine that oxidized into bufotenine N-Oxide before the tests were carried out. Bufotenine will oxidize into bufotenine N-Oxide in just a few days if the conditions are right.
Bufotenine has an XLogP of 1.6 and is insoluble in heptane (XlogP of 4.3) and naphtha. Bufotenine is soluble in more polar solvents like ether (XlogP of 0.9), chloroform (XlogP of 2.1), dichloromethane (XlogP of 1.5), etc.
Bufotenine N-Oxide has an XLogP of 1.3 and is extremely insoluble in heptane and naphtha. Bufotenine N-Oxide is soluble in ether, dichloromethane, and somewhat soluble in chloroform, but it’s more soluble in water and can be removed by water washing those solvents with pH 10 water.
It’s very easy to tell the difference between bufotenine and bufotenine N-Oxide by vaporization. Bufotenine at 5 mg produces very strong visual effects and no flushing, while it’s N-Oxide at 20 mg produces very slight visual effects and minor flushing.
Bufotenine N-Oxide can be converted into bufotenine by mixing it with excess zinc dust in pH 3 water, and then adjusting the pH to 9.5 and extracting freebase bufotenine with dichloromethane. This also works for 5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide and DMT N-Oxide. The N-Oxides are all more water soluble then their parent alkaloids. Because the N-Oxides are more water soluble they are all less hallucinogenic.
Garulfo
Rising Star
As usual 69ron your science about 5-Meo, DMT, Bufotenine is.... incredible !
Both technically and personnaly from that guy you seems knowing. Thanks a lot.
What do you think about acetone for the bufotenine ? (tek on erowid uses acetone)
When you says 'zinc in excess', can you be a bit more accurate ? Does it means "twice the weight" for example, or the same volume or... ? If I well understand, the zinc is needed as a catalizer for the reaction to occur right ? Could some handmade zinc powder works (scrapped from a metal piece). I guess a "zinc" topic for N-oxydes should be started.
Both technically and personnaly from that guy you seems knowing. Thanks a lot.
What do you think about acetone for the bufotenine ? (tek on erowid uses acetone)
When you says 'zinc in excess', can you be a bit more accurate ? Does it means "twice the weight" for example, or the same volume or... ? If I well understand, the zinc is needed as a catalizer for the reaction to occur right ? Could some handmade zinc powder works (scrapped from a metal piece). I guess a "zinc" topic for N-oxydes should be started.
69ron
Rising Star
ACETONE AND BUFOTENINE
Acetone works great for extracting freebase bufotenine, as well as freebase DMT and freebase 5-MeO-DMT. However bufotenine citrate is practically insoluble in acetone. This can be used to your advantage though.
You can extract bufotenine easily because of this behavior.
All you need to do is freebase bufotenine in the powdered plant matter by adding a little bit of water and 1/4 part sodium carbonate. You want it thick and muddy so it can dry fast, so don’t add too much water. Mix it thoroughly. Then completely dry the plant matter. It must be bone dry. No water at all must be left. Then soak the plant matter in about 4 parts acetone. The freebase bufotenine will dissolve in the acetone along with lots of oils and fats. Filter out the plant matter. To the acetone, then add citric acid, pre-dissolved in acetone. This will cause bufotenine citrate to precipitate out of the acetone. Keep adding more until no more precipitates form. If no precipitates form at all this means that there is water present in the acetone. If that’s the case you’ve messed up and there isn’t any easy recovery for this. There can’t be any water present at all, not even a trace or it won’t work. If this happens you can evaporate all the acetone, add 1 part sodium carbonate and start all over from the beginning.
Wait a few minutes for the precipitates to settle down. Then pour off the acetone and you are left with crude bufotenine citrate. Then you add 1 part sodium carbonate, and a little water, and mix. This makes freebase bufotenine again. You then dry it completely, then dissolve it in acetone, filter, and evaporate the acetone to get nearly pure freebase bufotenine. It’s SO EASY. It can be done in under an hour if you have a good food dehydrator for drying the stuff. Vaporizing 10 mg of this will be very strong.
ZINC AND N-OXIDES
Hand made zinc powder will work just as long as it's not already oxidized into zinc oxide.
When using zinc dust, you want maybe 2 parts zinc to one part alkaloid on a molecular bases, I believe. I don’t know the exact numbers yet. This is still sort of new to me. It needs to be mixed with the alkaloid in vinegar or some other acidic solution. Vinegar is usually used. What happens is that zinc dust oxidizes into zinc oxide by pulling of the N-oxides from the alkaloids in solution. It's more attracted to the N-Oxides than the acetic acid in the vinegar. Oxygen is more strongly attracted to zinc than to the alkaloids. Think of it like a strong magnet and a weak magnet fighting over a small piece of iron. The stronger magnet can pull iron away from the weaker magnet as long as it’s near it. It’s s similar concept. So you want to mix the solution for about an hour so that all the zinc touches all the alkaloids. The more zinc you have the quicker the reaction. One thing to remember is to add the alkaloids to the vinegar before adding the zinc dust or else the zinc dust will react with the vinegar, I believe.
Acetone works great for extracting freebase bufotenine, as well as freebase DMT and freebase 5-MeO-DMT. However bufotenine citrate is practically insoluble in acetone. This can be used to your advantage though.
You can extract bufotenine easily because of this behavior.
All you need to do is freebase bufotenine in the powdered plant matter by adding a little bit of water and 1/4 part sodium carbonate. You want it thick and muddy so it can dry fast, so don’t add too much water. Mix it thoroughly. Then completely dry the plant matter. It must be bone dry. No water at all must be left. Then soak the plant matter in about 4 parts acetone. The freebase bufotenine will dissolve in the acetone along with lots of oils and fats. Filter out the plant matter. To the acetone, then add citric acid, pre-dissolved in acetone. This will cause bufotenine citrate to precipitate out of the acetone. Keep adding more until no more precipitates form. If no precipitates form at all this means that there is water present in the acetone. If that’s the case you’ve messed up and there isn’t any easy recovery for this. There can’t be any water present at all, not even a trace or it won’t work. If this happens you can evaporate all the acetone, add 1 part sodium carbonate and start all over from the beginning.
Wait a few minutes for the precipitates to settle down. Then pour off the acetone and you are left with crude bufotenine citrate. Then you add 1 part sodium carbonate, and a little water, and mix. This makes freebase bufotenine again. You then dry it completely, then dissolve it in acetone, filter, and evaporate the acetone to get nearly pure freebase bufotenine. It’s SO EASY. It can be done in under an hour if you have a good food dehydrator for drying the stuff. Vaporizing 10 mg of this will be very strong.
ZINC AND N-OXIDES
Hand made zinc powder will work just as long as it's not already oxidized into zinc oxide.
When using zinc dust, you want maybe 2 parts zinc to one part alkaloid on a molecular bases, I believe. I don’t know the exact numbers yet. This is still sort of new to me. It needs to be mixed with the alkaloid in vinegar or some other acidic solution. Vinegar is usually used. What happens is that zinc dust oxidizes into zinc oxide by pulling of the N-oxides from the alkaloids in solution. It's more attracted to the N-Oxides than the acetic acid in the vinegar. Oxygen is more strongly attracted to zinc than to the alkaloids. Think of it like a strong magnet and a weak magnet fighting over a small piece of iron. The stronger magnet can pull iron away from the weaker magnet as long as it’s near it. It’s s similar concept. So you want to mix the solution for about an hour so that all the zinc touches all the alkaloids. The more zinc you have the quicker the reaction. One thing to remember is to add the alkaloids to the vinegar before adding the zinc dust or else the zinc dust will react with the vinegar, I believe.
So if SWIM was to attempt an A/B phalaris aquatica extraction involving a wheat grass juicer, at what stage should I do the zinc reduction to increase the yeild? Is DMT N-Oxide soluble in Naptha? Or would I perform the zinc reduction on the fresh juices extracted via wheatgrass juicer?