Pharmahuasca Dosage and Preperation Questions

[Boy]

My gnomish friend has 250mg yellowish DMT crystalline powder and 250 mg Harmine. The gnome is experienced with magical psychedelic substances but has never himself ingested DMT beyond failing to vaporize it once, and has never had an MAOI. He is a very careful gnome, and while he would normally start small, he is thinking that with his experience with other psychedelics and his willingness to travel to alternate dimensions, he believes a strong dose of DMT would be helpful.

After doing some research, the gnome has settled on a dosage of 125 mg DMT and 150 mg harmine. He was thinking that since he didn't have an accurate scale and not enough gnome currency to buy one, he would just halve both of the powders and make an approximation. This is perhaps careless, but the gnome doesn't think he has any other options.

In terms of preparation, the gnome will go on a diet that would avoid tyramine containing foods, and perhaps try eating very little food in general. He was simply just going to dump both the approximated DMT and harmine into some orange juice, stir it a little, and then down it as quick as possible and maybe refill the cup with water if need be to try and get most of the DMT and harmine as possible.

The gnome is wondering, is there anything immediately wrong with this? Is this dosage way off? Would this method be ineffective? Has anyone any suggestions of better ways? The gnome would appreciate advice and maybe some answers to these questions.

 

[pitubo]

It's kind of hard to give an answer to this, as I am not a gnome.

For an average human being, I would say that 250 mg DMT is way over the top.

My personal recommendation for starters is 50 mg DMT with 250 mg harmalas.

Split the 250 mg DMT in half, split it again in half. Now you have between 60 and 65 mg of DMT. Mix it with the 250 mg harmine. Dissolve into lemon juice or orange juice (anything acidic.) Ingest first half. 30 minutes later ingest other half of the mixture. Maybe eat a piece of buttered toast. Settle down to wait for the visions.

If the gnome feels very intrepid, he could forego one of the DMT halvings, making the amount of DMT ingested 125 mg. It would be very intrepid though and really not advised for a first time experience, certainly not without an experienced sitter.

 

[Boy]

How long should the gnome wait after plopping the powder into the orange juice? Also the gnome has a very sensitive stomach, and would like to do this with the least amount of harmine as possible, it seems 250mg is a more common dose of harmine so he will try that.

 

[fungalfanatic]

Dump it in, stir it a bit, and drink up.

But if you do not have a scale are you really sure you have 250mg DMT and harmalas to start with? Even one of those cheapo not terribly accurate 15-20 dollar mg scales off ebay is infinitely better than no scale. Get one :!:

Use of SWIM or gnomish friends is not necessary here

 

[Boy]

Ah, wasn't sure on the whole SWIM thing, seemed a bit silly myself but a lot of posts were doing it so I wasn't sure, thanks for the advice. As for being sure of them both being 250mg each, they look about 250mg, perhaps I will buy a cheapo scale to make sure.

 

[endlessness]

Start with 50mg DMT or so for the first time, 125mg can be way too much for some people. And up the harmine dosage to 200mg IMO

Dissolving in orange juice is fine.

MAOI diet in terms of tyramine is not necessary but I do recommend eating light and healthy that day (or in general.. ), and def dont take amphetamines or other stimulants, neither antidepressives or other pharmaceuticals.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

 

[rOm]

It is also adviced for you as a beginner with pharmahuasca to start lower (as endlessness suggested) and kee p track of accurate dosage, no eyeball, as a 25mg can make a huge difference. 50 mg dmt salt is a good place to start as most poeple use 50 to 150mg. The harmalas dosage is more standard but too much of it could be uncomfortable ( due to motion sickness mainly) and too low a dosage can make the whole experience a failure so 200mg to 300mg max harmalas is usually where it's at - especially if you're not yet used to harmalas.

Pharmahuasca is a fantastic combo, make sure to take care of your set and setting, and enjoy !

Do Not Mix with any kind of amphetamines or anti depressant, beware generally of any drug interactions, making sure to take at least a week or two in between.

Keep us updated, it may take a few trial and adjustament with dosage.

 

[Boy]

I think I'll take a few datura seeds as well. Scopolamine is effective at combating motion sickness, so that may be helpful for someone like me who gets nauseous easily. I'll be sure to take a very low amount though, I'm not sure how the datura will be with an MAOI.

 

[fungalfanatic]

I think that is an awful idea. Combining an MAOI with anticholinergics like atropine and scopolamine does not sound safe to me. Some cursory internet searches on the matter did not yield much information, not very comforting. And even if I am wrong about that who knows what subjective effects the combination will have?

If you really feel the need for antiemetic either smoke a little MJ or get some ginger. Please :!:

 

[Icon]

Just wanted to chime in I've taken datura seeds prior to pharmahuasca to combat nausea. We each just took 10 seeds which may not even be enough to help, but I think it did. My friend did not have any nausea and it was his first time. I got very close to purging, I think what really saved me is a thick bag of cannabis vapors. But the trip was excellent for both of us, the datura didn't seem to negatively influence anything at that dosage.

Also, is pharma very different for different people? 200-250mg harmalas is the sweet spot I found, but I never had effects with less than 150mg dmt (fumarate). It's the amount I weigh everyone now and they all have fulfilling experiences but are not overwhelmed. I often see other people recommending under 100mg, but I don't understand how that's enough. My only guess is people aren't tapping its full potential. If you're going to drop 75mg to ride the roller coaster, might as well make it 150mg and take the front seat.

 

[obliguhl]

Icon, you have good intent, but recommending 10 datura seeds is a bit reckless imho. Even one seed can have an unusual amount of alkaloids and can be potentially dangerous.

There are other, safer means to combat nausea...ginger for instance.

Ontopic: I would not even take 50mg, but would go even lower....

 

[Icon]

Icon, you have good intent, but recommending 10 datura seeds is a bit reckless imho. Even one seed can have an unusual amount of alkaloids and can be potentially dangerous.

There are other, safer means to combat nausea...ginger for instance.

Ontopic: I would not even take 50mg, but would go even lower....

I should disclaim then that my seeds were from a rather weak d. inoxia plant because after multiple trials it took over 30 seeds for either of 4 people to note delerious or adverse effects. We all heavily researched it before then and also before taking the 10 seeds as an antiemetic. 10 seeds is my conservative recommendation for that purpose based on my experience and the toxicity of inoxia seeds. I understand some specimens can be the redwoods of alkaloid plants, but the danger of low doses of standard datura seeds is a little overrated.

Perhaps only 3-5 seeds if not yet familiar with datura and your plant's potency.

 

[Boy]

These D. stramonium seeds that I have are pretty weak, I've taken almost 100 and the effects weren't very strong. I think the potency could vary between seed to seed, but not by so much that very little amounts of seeds would seem deadly. 10 seeds to me seems like a "microdose" that's very far from any level of poisoning or strong psychoactive effects, so I'd probably try around that amount. I'm thinking it would just give a mild twist on the experience and perhaps help with the nausea. A lot of ayahuasca brews use brugmansia so it's not uncommon that these alkaloids are combined with MAOI and DMT.

 

[Icon]

These D. stramonium seeds that I have are pretty weak, I've taken almost 100 and the effects weren't very strong. I think the potency could vary between seed to seed, but not by so much that very little amounts of seeds would seem deadly. 10 seeds to me seems like a "microdose" that's very far from any level of poisoning or strong psychoactive effects, so I'd probably try around that amount. I'm thinking it would just give a mild twist on the experience and perhaps help with the nausea. A lot of ayahuasca brews use brugmansia so it's not uncommon that these alkaloids are combined with MAOI and DMT.

:thumb_up: Yea 10 seeds for me was more symbolic than any serious medicating. If you smoke weed, I think that's a stronger, more reliable antiemetic and also synergizes well with aya in my experiences.

Good point on the brugmansia association. Reminds me of how vivid my dreams were on higher doses of datura--would make a wicked combination with Aya. Not until I find something to offset the throat irritation though... someone recently suggested slippery elm?

 

[endlessness]

I find this datura seed talk quite problematic to be honest, and I´d like to ask you all to be VERY careful with how you word your `recommendations`.

I know that consuming a very small amounts of seeds from different datura species has been done without negative consequences by some people, but that most definitely does NOT mean that consuming these seeds are always safe, specially in some of the dosages mentioned here. A search for phytochemical analysis on google scholar tells me Datura seeds can contain 0.6% tropane alkaloids. Above 1.5mg tropane alkaloids and people can have delirium, and a seed can weigh around 10mg, which means that at 20 seeds you can start having delirium if you´re sensitive and your seeds are potent.

Yes, it may be you took 30 or 100 seeds and were fine. It may also be that you had some delirium and thought you were fine, and just luckily no accidents happened. It may also be you were fine using those seeds but that a different batch of seeds from different plant, or same plant but different pod, could be way stronger and give you serious problems. Fact is, you just dont know unless you analysed it and quantified the alkaloid contents. And most specially, you really dont know if other people reading your posts and taking same quantity of seeds from other plants wont have trouble and hurt themselves or others. And when you mix personal sensitivity with this, plus mixing other compounds such as MAOIs, you can see why its very problematic to see what you wrote without also reading in the same post a big disclaimer about the safety aspects.

The fact that some cultures use brugmansia with ayahuasca is by no means a statement of it´s safety. What dosage is used? Were studies done showing the safety or are we relying on ´appeal to tradition´ fallacy? What about the contextual aspects of having a sitter in those traditional contexts which can help, while people in this forum may be consuming without sitters and add more danger to these mixtures?

Also, as an illustrative example, remember the Mancoluto case? It was one ´shaman´ that was using brugmansia in his brews and someone died under his watch (and he hid the kid´s body). I dont know if toxicological reports were published so not sure what was the final cause of death but its still calls into question this supposed safety some people are claiming. And then saying the dangers are ´overrated´, how do you know, if you dont have a statistical analysis of all the different datura seeds and sensitivities of people around the world? Just because for you it was one thing doesnt mean for others it will be the same.

Last but not least.. Everybody can do what they please in their own privacy, which we may agree or disagree with but you`re entitled to your decisions... but when you post something in a public forum, you have to take into account the possible consequences when a variety of other people in different contexts may try to follow your dosages and end in a bad spot.

Please be more mindful when discussing such substances and generalizing your own experiences to others.

 

[Jox]

@ Boy

you have never done pharma and want to add datura on the first take?

What is your thinking behind it? Other than nausea?

Which with good preparation you even won't have.

EDIT

Above is me trying to be diplomatic, but I think it makes no sense, so in plain English :

1.
Your question was too basic, there are many threads and stickies regarding pharma.

2.
You did sound reasonable, serious in your OP,,and that's why you got some answers...

3.
But out of nowhere you you want to add most dangerous, unadvisable plant, to pharma that you have never done in the first place. I read your posts, and you don't have much experience with plants and substances we work with over here.

So if inexperienced it is advisable, common sense to really get to know a plants over longer period of time before adding anything extra...

Even if you are going to cook a new dish I doubt you are going to add random ingredients from your kitchen cabinet, let alone dangerous ones...

 

[Boy]

Sorry guys, it was not my intention to advise any dangerous activities. The seeds I have are very small and very weak, it's only from testing them first at very small doses and then later larger doses that I realized this. I am only using seeds from the same pod, and I do not recommend that anyone take datura, and if they are going to make sure to do some serious testing. When I first had these seeds I was cautious and started at 3 seeds and increased in increments of 2 seeds up until a point where I thought I could judge how powerful they were, it's very dangerous to make assumptions like this. Datura is especially tricky because it's effects sometimes aren't obvious.

Some datura plants can produce more of the tropane alkaloids and have a much greater potency in their seeds, and even seeds from the same plant can have varying potency. If someone is going to try datura against warnings then I suggest that perhaps a safer way is to start very small, for example taking 2-3 seeds, and then make note of its effects, and treat seeds from different plants or even pods differently. This will be just a personal thing I will be doing and I'm sorry if I worded it in a way that might have encouraged other people emulate me in a dangerous way. I'd also like to say that I don't think anyone should ever take enough datura to induce delirium, because this is often dangerously close to a fatal dose.

As for marijuana, last couple times I smoked it I got faint and felt like passing out and had to lie down, this was very nauseating and has discouraged me from wanting to start smoking it again.

Also I'm sorry to ask these basic questions that were already answered in numerous other posts, I was just afraid that any errors could potentially be dangerous or wasteful so in a way I wanted some kind of confirmation, if you guys wish to delete this thread I'd be fine with that, I'm glad that you guys answered my questions and gave me advice and most importantly pointed out my foolishness in bringing up datura in a care-free way.

 

[Icon]

I find this datura seed talk quite problematic to be honest, and I´d like to ask you all to be VERY careful with how you word your `recommendations`.

Yes this is a public forum and I appreciate its higher standards, but the foundation is user experiences. I don't think it's expected that every contributor has lab equipment and publishing analysis. Originally, I was not recommending anything... only sharing my unique and relevant experience with antiemetic datura & ayahuasca.

I think you've overreacted and are making a lot of fallacious assumptions yourself. No one was advocating taking 30-100 seeds or the safety of doing so; it was just secondary info. Thank you for filling in the disclaimers -- I'm not trying to brush off the serious responsibility that comes with datura use and mixing self medications. Personally, I researched longer on datura than any of the plants I've consumed and more shared experience can only help educate others. Experiments in higher doses were always with a sitter and carefully bioassayed in small increments.

These are some posts that assured me 10 seeds would be safe, and I stand by that recommendation.

Don't toss them! They are great for treating nausea. They contain scopolamine and pretty much nothing else. They're the best natural source of scopolamine. Scopolamine is used by NASA for treating motion sickness. It's one of the most effective medicines there is for motion sickness.

About 3-10 seeds for an adult (no more than 10) are useful for motion sickness. Don't take anymore than 10 in a day.

1 seed weighs about 10 mg and contains about 0.4% scopolamine. So that's 0.04 mg per seed. So 10 seeds would contain 0.4 mg (400 micrograms). A safe adult dose of scopolamine is considered 400-800 micrograms with 1500 micrograms being the maximum safe adult dose.

So with 10 seeds you're taking a dose that is the minimum adult dose used for motion sickness.

For Datura stramonium the maximum safe pharmaceutical dose recommended is 10 seeds so SWIM never takes anything close to 10 seeds. Overdoses of Datura stramonium are very unpleasant, causing delirium and many fatalities have occurred so never go beyond the recommended 10 seed maximum pharmaceutical dose. At a maximum of 0.7% alkaloids, 10 large 10 mg seeds (most seeds are about 8 mg) could contain 700 micrograms of alkaloids (mostly hyoscyamine) which is a safe adult dose.

A few datura seeds are good for denauseation and/or potentiation. From 69ron we learned that 10 seeds a day is the safety threshold. So as been told before, just keep it to the amount of fingers you have as a maximum.

If there were more open and respectful discussion on datura, maybe it wouldn't be so taboo.

 

[obliguhl]

I agree with you not making datura a taboo, but every discussion about it should have its disclaimer, since the effects of datura can be dangerous if a certain threshhold is reached.

You said:

We each just took 10 seeds which may not even be enough to help, but I think it did.

To someone who does not know about datura or is a bit careless, this could be a reason for him or her to take even more than 10 seeds because...well, if 10 seeds are barely enough, why not take 20? Not saying people are dumb and just take everything without research, but everyone has been a bit careless one time in his life.

Moreover, i personally stopped eating inoxia seeds as a sleeping aid, after just 1 seed had pretty intense effects (for one seed). Don't want to chance getting this one freak seed of nature p). Also, what 69ron says, has to be taken with a grain of salt. He also claims some mildly psychoactive essential oils are like LSD.

 

[endlessness]

Boy, thank you for that.

I hope you understand this is nothing against you, we just want to make sure important aspects of the discussion are not missing.

Yes this is a public forum and I appreciate its higher standards, but the foundation is user experiences. I don't think it's expected that every contributor has lab equipment and publishing analysis.

Yes user experiences are very important, but this does not mean we should uncritically accept everyone to make any claims and generalizations related to their experiences, specially when they could involve putting others in danger. If you put your post here, expect your post to be scrutinized and other comments to be added on top to make it a more thorough explanation. This is not unique to you, its the same for me and everyone else.

I think you've overreacted and are making a lot of fallacious assumptions yourself

Which fallacius assumptions did I make? Please point it out. I am totally willing to reconsider my words if they are flawed. IMO all I considered were possibilities, at no point I said what is or isn´t the case.

I'm not trying to brush off the serious responsibility that comes with datura use and mixing self medications. Personally, I researched longer on datura than any of the plants I've consumed and more shared experience can only help educate others. Experiments in higher doses were always with a sitter and carefully bioassayed in small increments.

Sounds good

These are some posts that assured me 10 seeds would be safe, and I stand by that recommendation.

69ron was also involved in a lot of bad science and straight fraudulent claims and nasty business practices with his now-defunct plants and extracts shop. He also put others in legal danger by selling a harmala extract contaminated with scheduled substances. Please be careful with any of his claims.

The thing with phytochemistry is that it doesnt really work neatly in averages. If you read any of the analysis done with these plants, you`ll see they usually get a large amount of plant matter (seeds in this case) to extract from, and do an average by weight. But the alkaloids in plants are usually not evenly distributed. And when you are consuming from a selected part (or some selected amount of seeds), you have no clue whether you are getting seeds close to the average, or much higher or lower in content.

Right there you have obliguhl showing an example of one single seed having unexpectedly powerful effects. Maybe that was a freak of nature seed, but what if by chance you had 10 freak of nature seeds? Or 30 or 100, as the numbers mentioned before? How ´overrated´ are the warnings if several people are ok but one person has a serious accident because they read a post without disclaimers and werent careful about it? Its not like a warning or more thorough explanation will hurt anybody, but omitting them might

Again, Im not saying this should be a forbidden discussion, but I think its very important disclaimers are added when suggesting the use of such plants (just like we constantly disclaim about ayahuasca MAOIs and interaction with pharmaceutics, or DMT use and possibility of `dark trips` and how to diminish those possibilities etc). While you say you have researched yourself and done with a sitter, when making your recommendations in previous posts you did not mention anything about how others should have sitters, about possibility of personal sensitivity, about people not knowing whether their seeds are from a ´standard datura´ (whatever that means) or a specially strong one, and so on. If you had mentioned any of this, I wouldnt have needed to post anything here in the first place.

Hope you understand where I´m coming from.

Be well