• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Pictorial Guide to Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction

Migrated topic.
Hey gilbran, did you test the alks in any other way appart from that lower sublingual dosage? Im wondering how it will be dosage-wise.

Also, regarding the loss of product through manske (in the rue extraction), how much salt did you add to the water and how? I ask because considering the water wasnt properly saturated some of the alks might have stayed in solution. Did you throw away the liquid ?
 
Alright, unfortunately I've lost my camera charger again, so pics will have to wait...

Gibran, it probably only took 12 hours, I just thought "Gee, I'll set this aside and see what else drops out" and then a week later I noticed it was clear! It is definitely worth stressing that the solution should be crystal clear, I'd thought the alks all settled! But not so, there was about .25g left.
 
endlessness said:
Hey gilbran, did you test the alks in any other way appart from that lower sublingual dosage? Im wondering how it will be dosage-wise.

Also, regarding the loss of product through manske (in the rue extraction), how much salt did you add to the water and how? I ask because considering the water wasnt properly saturated some of the alks might have stayed in solution. Did you throw away the liquid ?
Click to expand...
Yes, I’ve done a couple of pharma trials, one with 225mg, another with 250mg. Within the next few days I intend to try again with a lower dose – about 175mg.

To make a saturated salt solution, I brought water to the boiling point, turned off the heat, and gradually added salt until no more would dissolve. I’m sure it was saturated – some salt was already coming out of solution before I added it to the alkaloid solution. (And yes, I did throw away the liquid. :x )
 
personally I prefer saturating the harmala solution directly with salt by keeping it in the pot boiling while adding the salt, and later decanting away from excess salt. In the harmala guide in the wiki there's a picture of it, this way its sure to be saturated, and I never really noticed big loss in this step (I did notice more lost when repeating the base precipitation. Maybe when doing the washes one could lose a bit of harmaline since by its theoretically a bit more water soluble even in freebase form)

So you are trying with smaller dose meaning 225mg where plenty for pharma? thats awesome then, it cant be so impure if its perfectly potent at this dosage, therefore your yields are indeed amazing :)
 
endlessness said:
...So you are trying with smaller dose meaning 225mg where plenty for pharma? thats awesome then, it cant be so impure if its perfectly potent at this dosage, therefore your yields are indeed amazing :)
Click to expand...
You can read about my first two pharma trials here and here.

I think I’m using more than enough caapi alkaloids – it seems the DMT doses have been too low. (Better safe than traumatized.) Next time I’ll try 175mg caapi alkaloids, 100mg DMT.
 
Cloud said:
I'm still waiting on some info regarding boil time on caapi.

If it is that fast to get the majority of alkaloids out of the vine, this would cut down the time it takes to make ayahuasca.
Click to expand...
For anyone who’s interested, I completed my experiment and posted the results.

A very quick synopsis: 85% of alkaloids in 2 hours, 95% in 4 hours. Nine hour boils are not necessary!
 
It's good to know that the same method can be done with rue as with caapi. I am hoping that if one wants to separate harmine from harmaline, one could simply get reduced boils, and add sodium bicarbonate to precip the harmine. Then add sodium carbonate or NaOH for the rest of the alks.

Just wondering though, for these teks you say you use NaOH to precip the alkaloids, then to decrease the ph of the alkaloids, you add water and remove the water, and repeat this step until the ph is lowered. Just wondering, doesn't adding water like that dissolve or wash away alkaloids?
 
Apoc said:
...Just wondering though, for these teks you say you use NaOH to precip the alkaloids, then to decrease the ph of the alkaloids, you add water and remove the water, and repeat this step until the ph is lowered. Just wondering, doesn't adding water like that dissolve or wash away alkaloids?
Click to expand...
The harmala alkaloids are practically insoluble in room-temperature water. For example, this source lists harmine as “insoluble”.
 
endlessness said:
though harmaline is possibly more soluble than harmine. In caapi that might generally not be a problem for lack of harmaline content but with rue there might be some yield loss..
Click to expand...
The only online source I could find lists harmaline as "very slightly soluble" in water. There may be some loss, but it is probably very small.
 
gibran2 said:
Cloud said:
I'm still waiting on some info regarding boil time on caapi.

If it is that fast to get the majority of alkaloids out of the vine, this would cut down the time it takes to make ayahuasca.
Click to expand...
For anyone who’s interested, I completed my experiment and posted the results.

A very quick synopsis: 85% of alkaloids in 2 hours, 95% in 4 hours. Nine hour boils are not necessary!
Click to expand...

Very nice work!.. I've been waiting on this one for a while.
 
endlessness said:
though harmaline is possibly more soluble than harmine. In caapi that might generally not be a problem for lack of harmaline content but with rue there might be some yield loss..
Click to expand...

Oh, then that would actually be a good thing if one is interested in the harmine and not the harmaline :)
 
I was wondering if this method would work on mimosa? Like say reduce some mimosa tea, put some base in it. Would stuff precip? How to separate it?
 
Well, I tried it. Added the 5g lye ...nothing happened. I subsequently added up to 100g of lye ..the solution did not turn black, no precips. I used a total of 50ml vinegar, but a big portion of it must have boiled off...do you need more than 100g of lye to neutralize 50ml vinegar? A big failure so far.
 
obliguhl said:
Well, I tried it. Added the 5g lye ...nothing happened. I subsequently added up to 100g of lye ..the solution did not turn black, no precips. I used a total of 50ml vinegar, but a big portion of it must have boiled off...do you need more than 100g of lye to neutralize 50ml vinegar? A big failure so far.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear you're having problems.

You say you used 50ml vinegar – this was during the initial brewing? Also, how much caapi did you use? What variety was it? Was it pre-shredded or powdered or ??

50ml of vinegar contains less than 3g of acetic acid or so, so 5g of NaOH should be more than enough to neutralize and convert alkaloid salts to freebase. 100g is extreme overkill.

The initial freebasing doesn’t take place instantaneously – it can take 5 minutes or more, with periodic stirring, for the alkaloid particles to aggregate and become visible. I recently did an extraction using yellow caapi, and the precipitate was much finer than with black caapi, and therefore took longer to settle. Rather than adding more NaOH, you should have stirred periodically for 5 minutes or so, then waited at least an hour for any precipitate formed to settle. It might be that your precipitate was very fine and just needed more time to settle.
 
Hey gilbran, I would be correct in assuming that THH would be precipitated out along with its fellow harmaloids right? Do you know if THH is insoluble in room temp water, so it doesnt get lost in the water washes?

Thank you for making such a straightforward and effective procedure freind :)
 
SpiralNeuroEclipse said:
Hey gilbran, I would be correct in assuming that THH would be precipitated out along with its fellow harmaloids right? Do you know if THH is insoluble in room temp water, so it doesnt get lost in the water washes?

Thank you for making such a straightforward and effective procedure freind :)
Click to expand...
I assume that THH is relatively insoluble. I may have even posted the source somewhere. 😉
 
I just wanted to say thanks for this pictorial as well gibran.

I'm at the final stages of the extraction with just the washes remaining.

As spiral said, very strait forward and effective! Thanks again!
 
Hi,

zubidlo decided to test his caapi vine potency with this lovely tek.

preparation of the brew(47g whole piece, manually shredded):
3*30 min, 750mil tap water, vinegar less than 10mil each time
Brew filtered through filters in funnel few times during reduction.

Following the pictorial:
step by step, amounts estimated, process observed and ph measured each step.
No differences observed compared to pictorial.
zubidlo read that harmine is fluorescent under ultraviolet light, which zubidlo doesn't have, so next time.

yield: 0,845g from 47g vine.

Now I want to thank gibran2 for this pictorial. It's lovely example of practical kitchen chemistry. I will use this tek to test new vine potency every time. It's good idea to know what is a dose, specially for multiple people aya ritual.



Regards.
 
zubidlo, SWIM did almost exactly the same thing as you. 3 x 30 min boils on 50g. The pieces started whole, then broken up with a hammer, and then ground in a blender.

The boils were done with 4 to 1 water to vinegar, the three boils collected and reduced, and then based with sodium carbonate.

The precipitates were collected and washed with clean water to remove residual sodium carbonate.

The final yield was 0.92 g harmalas from 50 g vine.

SWIM did NOT re-x as this didn't seem as important with caapi as with rue, so SWIM didn't mind some minor impurities in the product.
 
Back
Top Bottom