Possible?

[Kmk6891]

So my friend mixed up 200g of mhrb and did gordos tek. This was at least 6 weeks ago and he just did another pull yesterday . Pulling with heated naptha. He is on at least his 10th pull and still getting around 200mg per pull , which is the same as all the pulls except first 3 that were quite a bit more. He added around 100g extra of calcium hydroxide 2 weeks after originally mixed and probably another 100g of calcium hydroxide a week ago.

So my friends question is would the added CH do something to the mix with the amount of time that has passed. Possibly pulling something other than dmt out of the mix .

He wonder's this because the trips have gotten rather strange. Like tonight when he vaped with eyes open, been doing a lot of open eye trips lately, his phone completely changed into a different phone with different apps and background, like it wasn't his phone at all. Next thing he noticed was the room was a different room as in furnishings and all. Then suddenly he look at his hands and could see and physically feel them dissolving. So he stood up and looked at his wife as she asked what was wrong, she was dissolving as well. Freaking out he decides to leave the room only to find everything is different, like the whole house and the outdoors looked 2d or something like that.

He went in the bathroom which was different and sat on the toilet also different and closed his eyes for a few minutes and then went to look outside again, now it was normal turning around he was back in his house and everything was normal again.

He has been extracting and vaping spice for 5yrs now and the last 4 months he has journeyed almost every day taking the good with the not so good journeys in stride and learning while trying to figure out more about hyperspace.

So did adding all the extra C-H DO something to the mix? How is he still pulling spice after 6 weeks and 10 pulls? He is freeze precipitating the spice out of the naptha.

Sorry if this is not the right place, move if needed.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

This sounds "normal" to me. DMT can get weirder the more you use it,and it sounds like your friend has been using it a lot recently, so maybe this is his sign that he can take a break and integrate his experiences. Even those eyes open, alternate reality, things dissolving or disappearing, type of experiences have been reported here multiple times over the years. They may be astonishing and disturbing but they are far from unique nor unheard of.

It's unlikely to be anything to do with the long, drawn out extraction - lime paste and naphtha is a bit inefficient like that - in fact, I bet that if you were to send of a sample of the first and of the most recently extracted material they would be indistinguishable.

And what if the weird effects are from chronic naphtha exposure, eh? (I don't think so but one ought to consider all factors rationally.)

EDIT: if he does have samples of material kept from the various phases of the extraction it would be great to be able to compare the first pull against the most recent one at the very least. The reason is that I was wondering about the rôle of 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline in all this. 2-Me-THβC is still something of a mystery - we don't know what it does or even if it's active, and it's quite hard to separate or distinguish from DMT.

 

[murklan]

EDIT: if he does have samples of material kept from the various phases of the extraction it would be great to be able to compare the first pull against the most recent one at the very least. The reason is that I was wondering about the rôle of 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline in all this. 2-Me-THβC is still something of a mystery - we don't know what it does or even if it's active, and it's quite hard to separate or distinguish from DMT.

Never heard of 2-Me-THβC. I've always understood it as you almost only get n-n,DMT or DMT N-Oxide when pulling with NPS. Something new everyday (even without DMT).

 

[downwardsfromzero]

EDIT: if he does have samples of material kept from the various phases of the extraction it would be great to be able to compare the first pull against the most recent one at the very least. The reason is that I was wondering about the rôle of 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline in all this. 2-Me-THβC is still something of a mystery - we don't know what it does or even if it's active, and it's quite hard to separate or distinguish from DMT.

Never heard of 2-Me-THβC. I've always understood it as you almost only get n-n,DMT or DMT N-Oxide when pulling with NPS. Something new everyday (even without DMT).

Attached is a diagram for comparison. And here's a key paper on the matter: Metabolite Profile Resulting from the Activation/Inactivation of 1-Methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine and 2-Methyltetrahydro-β-carboline by Oxidative Enzymes

2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline

webbook.nist.gov

Occurs as a minor component in some ayahuasca:
1. Riba, J., Mcllhenny, E.H., Valle, M., et al. Metabolism and disposition of N,N-dimethyltryptamine and harmala alkaloids after oral administration of ayahuasca. Drug Test Anal. 4(7-8), 610-616 (2012).

2. Rivier, L., and Lindgren, J.-E. “Ayahuasca,” the South American hallucinogenic drink: An ethnobotanical and chemical investigation. Econ. Bot. 26, 101–129 (1972).

2-methyl-1,2,3,4-Tetrahydro-β-carboline (CAS 13100-00-0)

An Analytical Reference Standard

www.caymanchem.com

Not to be confused with 1-Me-THβC:

The Methyltetrahydro-β-Carbolines in Maca (Lepidium meyenii)

Maca, a plant native to the Peruvian highlands, contains (1R,3S)-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (MTCA). The family of the tetrahydro-β-carbolines has been associated with both biologically helpful and harmful ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Methyltetrahydro-{beta}-Carbolines in Maca (Lepidium meyenii) - PubMed

Maca, a plant native to the Peruvian highlands, contains (1R,3S)-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (MTCA). The family of the tetrahydro-beta-carbolines has been associated with both biologically helpful and harmful compounds. We present evidence that MTCA is a natural...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Kmk6891]

This sounds "normal" to me. DMT can get weirder the more you use it.

Of the hundreds of times he has use this substance he has never physically felt anything. This time it was a burning dissolving feeling as he rubbed his disappearing fingers together. He laughed about it afterwards but in the moment he thought he really messed up this time.

It's unlikely to be anything to do with the long, drawn out extraction - lime paste and naphtha is a bit inefficient like that - in fact, I bet that if you were to send of a sample of the first and of the most recently extracted material they would be indistinguishable.


Even with the extra 200g of C-H ? This would mean 400g
total C-H in the 200g of mhrb.

And what if the weird effects are from chronic naphtha exposure, eh? (I don't think so but one ought to consider all factors rationally.)

Explain please, what are the effects of chronic naptha
exposure?


EDIT: if he does have samples of material kept from the various phases of the extraction it would be great to be able to compare the first pull against the most recent one at the very least. The reason is that I was wondering about the rôle of 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline in all this. 2-Me-THβC is still something of a mystery - we don't know what it does or even if it's active, and it's quite hard to separate or distinguish from DMT.

He would be willing to have a sample of the last extraction tested but unfortunately doesn't have any of the first left. How would he go about getting it tested?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Neuropsychological effects of exposure to naphtha among automotive workers.

The association between exposure to naphtha and neurobehavioural measures was examined prospectively over one year among workers employed at an automotive plant that used naphtha to calibrate fuel injectors. The neurobehavioural tests included those that ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The association between exposure to naphtha and neurobehavioural measures was examined prospectively over one year among workers employed at an automotive plant that used naphtha to calibrate fuel injectors. The neurobehavioural tests included those that assess mood, basic intelligence, and functioning of the cerebral frontal lobes and limbic system and were designed so that acute, reversible, and chronic effects of solvent exposure could be assessed. Participants were 248 workers in June 1988, and the testing was repeated on 185 of these workers in 1989. Concentrations of naphtha at the plant ranged from six to 709 mg/m3, although exposure was greater in 1988 than in 1989. Duration of exposure for individual subjects ranged from 0.8 to 7.3 years. Cross sectional data analyses showed significant associations between level of exposure to naphtha and slower timed scores on trails A, and greater reports of negative affective symptoms on profile of mood states scales in 1988 but not 1989. Threshold model analyses of the 1989 data showed an association between score on visual reproductions immediate recall and daily exposure to naphtha at or above 1050 h x mg/m3. Models of chronic exposure showed no associations between chronic exposure and negative neurobehavioural outcome. Results suggest that naphtha produces mild acute reversible effects on function of the central nervous system at or above daily exposures of 540 h x mg/m3 (approximately 90 ppm/h)."
As I said, probably not the naphtha but try to think rationally about it.

People also report physical sensations from DMT. This is not unusual.

You may be able to get a sample tested by sending it to, e.g., Solaris Analytical. There are other options which can be found with the help of a search engine.

 

[Kmk6891]

Thank you for your responses and the links much appreciated. He has just been wondering about contaminates that could alter the affects of or change dmt into another form of?


He has been reading a lot on here lately and has seen some trip reports that mentioned similar things. He had gotten extreme nausea about a week ago after vaping 40 or so mg that lasted the entire trip and 10 minutes after but then it was gone. That was a tough thing to get through let me tell you.


He almost wishes it would happen again to try to understand it better. He remembers it vividly but cannot get a grasp on how weird it was compared to anything he has ever experienced with dmt. Anyway thanks

 

[murklan]

Attached is a diagram for comparison. And here's a key paper on the matter: Metabolite Profile Resulting from the Activation/Inactivation of 1-Methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine and 2-Methyltetrahydro-β-carboline by Oxidative Enzymes

Thank you! That abstract got my head spinning

 

[Kmk6891]

Is there a link someone can post discussing different contaminants and their effects?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I don't think we have any correlations listed anywhere, since it's already a highly subjective and variable experience prone to abrupt changes in overall feel from one experience to another.

How about making a comparison by starting a new extraction, maybe split into two portions? Make pulls in one of them using fresh naphtha, and in the other using recycled naphtha. Only if he's been - as I would hope - recycling the naphtha already. Beware of the naphtha fumes and only do two portions if there's enough space to work safely in an uncluttered environment.

 

[murklan]

I don't think we have any correlations listed anywhere, since it's already a highly subjective and variable experience prone to abrupt changes in overall feel from one experience to another.

How about making a comparison by starting a new extraction, maybe split into two portions? Make pulls in one of them using fresh naphtha, and in the other using recycled naphtha. Only if he's been - as I would hope - recycling the naphtha already. Beware of the naphtha fumes and only do two portions if there's enough space to work safely in an uncluttered environment.

I'm perhaps derailing this thread a bit. But I'm curious about the fumes from naphtha. Naphtha is a broad term I know. But can you tell how volatile a NPS it judging of the smell? It it's a strong smell of the fumes is it more volatile? And good with the study on workers employed at an automotive plant, but I'm not sure what levels I'm exposed to when pouring this stuff in my kitchen. No fume hood or vent here.

 

[Kmk6891]

I don't think we have any correlations listed anywhere, since it's already a highly subjective and variable experience prone to abrupt changes in overall feel from one experience to another.

How about making a comparison by starting a new extraction, maybe split into two portions? Make pulls in one of them using fresh naphtha, and in the other using recycled naphtha. Only if he's been - as I would hope - recycling the naphtha already. Beware of the naphtha fumes and only do two portions if there's enough space to work safely in an uncluttered environment.

Then he must wonder if/why not , There is/isn't a way the average person doing extractions could test their results for contaminates before consumption?


He evaps the naptha down to around 20% original volume before freeze precipitating and sometimes reuses it while sometimes he doesn't. What would be the point in the comparison with no at home way of testing for purity?

How dangerous is plastic contamination, if say plastic came in contact with the naptha/alkaloid solution even if for a brief time? This didn't happen but he is curious about what could possibly be a source of contamination?

 

[pantostao]

What would be the point in the comparison with no at home way of testing for purity?

This is a guess (and not an informed one), but I think the best way one could do that at home is by buying a precise thermometer, and try to measure the melting and boiling points to see if they line up with pure DMT freebase.

 

[Kmk6891]

I've always understood it as you almost only get n-n,DMT or DMT N-Oxide when pulling with NPS. Something new everyday (even without DMT).[/quote]



This is the way he understood it as well, but there's something off with the last pull that has him wondering if after being heated and pulled from so many times that something has happened.

He guesses he'll have to wait until he gets some new mhrb to be able to compare it to. He vaped some of the questionable stuff today and it was almost the same exact experience as he mentioned in original post. Weird to say the least.

 

[Kmk6891]

Has anybody had basically the 'same to them' trips after frequent use or did they start to feel like totally different like it wasn't even the same substance?

Friend says the last 2 times were the same, but didn't seem close to what dmt has always been like. If these last two trips were an indication of what it'll be like from now on, he's not so sure he would care to do it anymore.

So has any frequent users experience's completely changed and stayed that way?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I've been here a long time and seen this sort of thing reported multiple times over the years. This has now set me thinking about how such stark changes might manifest through biochemical changes in the user. One possible or even likely mechanism is enzyme expression. There is a parallel here with LSD, where there are two overarching experiential types depending on the metabolic profile of the user.

A certain proportion of LSD users report that the latter portion of the trip turns darker and more anxiety-ridden; work by the heroic researcher Dave Nichols and his team (iirc - it was at least Dr. Nichols reporting it in the presentation) showed that this subgroup metabolises LSD into 13-OH-LSD which turns out to have a much greater affinity for certain dopamine receptors, which Nichols claimed were responsible for the challenging effects.

Purely speculative of me to suggest this, but maybe prolonged use of DMT leads to a switching of metabolism and an analogous DMT derivative starts getting produced? Or the effect is expressed somewhere else within the tapestry of the neurological mechanism, upstream or downstream of DMT's point of entry? After a prolonged period of heavy use, "something's gotta give"...

As far as contamination goes, it's best to avoid introducing it in the first place, especially in cases of chronic usage. Your friend ought to think very carefully about the quality of materials being used in the extractions. Furthermore, when it comes to subjectively comparing the effects of the suspect material with a fresh batch the only meaningful way to proceed is with a randomised double-blind trial. Neither he nor the person giving him the dose must know which of the samples it comes from. It's far too easy for that knowledge to influence the trip.

If these last two trips were an indication of what it'll be like from now on, he's not so sure he would care to do it anymore.

Like I mentioned earlier, this could just be DMT's way of telling him he needs to take a break and integrate.

 

[Kmk6891]

Thank you for your replies downwardsfromzero, he is going to take a break for a couple of months and then he says he'll press on. Your knowledge far exceeds his on this stuff and he greatly appreciates all of your input.

He was reading a lot of posts here and found one concerning the 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline you mentioned. He gatherer that it is present in extractions in some amount? and wonders if somehow the concentrations of it is somehow higher in the last couple of extractions due to the time and temp of the naptha/ heavily based bark mix. The first few pulls were done with not as warm of naptha.

He's not sure if he understood that correctly but anyways thanks again. Happy travels.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Thanks for appreciative feodback, it's a really interesting question you've raised in this thread and I've had fun assembling these few ideas about what might be going.

I look forward to the day when these questions can be tackled academically and to that end I see two lines of enquiry which may not be mutually exclusive:
1) Do these later pulls contain significant amounts of something other than DMT? Is it 2-MeTHβC and if so, what might it do?
2) Can chronic DMT use cause an abrupt change in its metabolism which coincides with this disturbing change in subjective effects? Does some other component of the material - trace or otherwise - play a rôle in the stark alteration of the experience?

The second question might be problematic since it seems difficult to predict when this subjective change might occur, not to mention the ethical concerns in getting a group of volunteers to cane DMT until they break.

Getting a sample sent off for analysis is much easier by comparison and it should be relatively straightford to track down a reputable organisation in your/his part of the world.

 

[Kmk6891]

About your second question, has there been any studies done on mice or something else that could possibly shed light on this?

 

[murklan]

I've been here a long time and seen this sort of thing reported multiple times over the years. This has now set me thinking about how such stark changes might manifest through biochemical changes in the user. One possible or even likely mechanism is enzyme expression. There is a parallel here with LSD, where there are two overarching experiential types depending on the metabolic profile of the user.

A certain proportion of LSD users report that the latter portion of the trip turns darker and more anxiety-ridden; work by the heroic researcher Dave Nichols and his team (iirc - it was at least Dr. Nichols reporting it in the presentation) showed that this subgroup metabolises LSD into 13-OH-LSD which turns out to have a much greater affinity for certain dopamine receptors, which Nichols claimed were responsible for the challenging effects.

Purely speculative of me to suggest this, but maybe prolonged use of DMT leads to a switching of metabolism and an analogous DMT derivative starts getting produced? Or the effect is expressed somewhere else within the tapestry of the neurological mechanism, upstream or downstream of DMT's point of entry? After a prolonged period of heavy use, "something's gotta give"...

As far as contamination goes, it's best to avoid introducing it in the first place, especially in cases of chronic usage. Your friend ought to think very carefully about the quality of materials being used in the extractions. Furthermore, when it comes to subjectively comparing the effects of the suspect material with a fresh batch the only meaningful way to proceed is with a randomised double-blind trial. Neither he nor the person giving him the dose must know which of the samples it comes from. It's far too easy for that knowledge to influence the trip.

If these last two trips were an indication of what it'll be like from now on, he's not so sure he would care to do it anymore.

Like I mentioned earlier, this could just be DMT's way of telling him he needs to take a break and integrate.

Great! It's the first time I read about that here! I've been suspecting that something 'permanently' has changed for me with DMT and I've written about it here. I've only used my own extracted DMT and the same Syrian rue (but different extractions&teas), but some different ROA's. I definitely feel as if there's a shift in how my body reacts to DMT thees days. Obviously it's also a mental shift/change but still, it's such a different experience in how it feels. From not knowing almost anything about how receptors and neurotransmitters works, I get the feeling like there are parts in the system that are not responding. Very reductionistic sounding, but I don't mean it that way.

Would be curious of other tracks, studies or experiences.