Posture, muslim architecture and spice

[burnt]

Anyone who thinks Islam is a wise religion should read passages of the Koran. Its filled with blatant violence and bigotry and sexism. I for one don't want my psychedelic experiences to in any way resemble such a twisted and perverted belief system. Not to mention that its all plagarized and barely has any originality.

Surrendering ones ego is the first step of the journey.

Thats different then surrendering to a divine totalitarian dictator.

the loud and extreme minority have given a bad name to their peaceful brothers and sisters, and so those on the outside tend to generalise an a very imbalanced way.

Its not that much of a minority if you look at polling data. The entire notion of extreme Islam is a myth made up by guilty westerns who can't figure out why they are being attacked. All Islam is extreme compared to western secular values. Being a Muslim who doesn't think Sharia law needs to be implemented across the globe is extreme in that religions context.

burnt - as we know here from spice journeys, surrender can be a very positive thing - I think seeing the muslim prayer as a grovelling to god is a little condescending... I mean many many christians fear god in a similar way. yes I'm sure many muslims like christians see it like they need to please their god for fear of being punished... but I'm sure there also those who are simply bowing to the divine, acknowledging the beauty and power of nature and creation.

I don't see how grovelling before the ideas of a 7th century warlord who probably had temporal lobe epilepsy has anything to do with acknowledging the beauty and power of nature. To me its a rejection of the true beauty of human nature as well as the cosmos itself. To claim that its ruled by divine dictator whose role model was a pedophile warlord is not my idea of something beautiful.



But getting back on topic:

this thread was started to discuss postures and their effect on visions in comparison to the inspiration of islamic mosque art perhaps inspired by the regular positioning of the body in the same pose.

I don't think anything psychedelic inspired islamic art. Islamic art is the way it is because drawing people and especially the prophet is not done. So they make symbols and repeating patterns etc. Also before Islam decided to go back into the dark ages they were pretty good at things like math so this probably inspired a lot of their architechture as well.

Also like I said above I think so called prophets like muhammad were temporal lobe epileptics. Temporal lobe epileptics are very prone to religious mystical experience with much overlap between psychedelic experience. I don't think any of it is substance induced though. There is no history of entheogenic use for entheogenic purposes (sure for medical or recreational) in Islam. Nor could there be. It would be a violation of everything the religion stands for and probably considered blasphamy.

Concerning repetative positions. I don't see any benefit of forcing yourself to strain in one position for a long time unless its for stretching or excersizing purposes. For ritual purposes its again just perversion and nonsense designed to get people to suffer and grovel to their leaders whether divine or man.

 

[Phlux-]

"Anyone who thinks Islam is a wise religion should read passages of the Koran. Its filled with blatant violence and bigotry and sexism. I for one don't want my psychedelic experiences to in any way resemble such a twisted and perverted belief system. Not to mention that its all plagarized and barely has any originality."

have u read the bible ?

hahah - i think u missed all the points i made man - thanks for your input tho - anyone else have any comments on the actual point of this thread ?

 

[burnt]

The last three paragraphs were a response to your original thread. I don't see what point I missed? Your associating Islamic art with psychedelic visions and I am trying to show why they might be related. Even though it doesn't have to do with entheogenic substances there is still a reason it looks similar. As far as the bump on the head I explained why they bow like that which is pretty much true as far as I know.

 

[MagikVenom]

Art is great.

People are nice.

Religion is DESTRUCTIVE EVIL BULLSHIT!

Peace
MV


Please pardon the future wile it is born.

 

[endlessness]

Ive seen some amazing mosques, like the one in Alhambra or some in morroco, and I must say they seem VERY reminiscent of psychedelic experience indeed, all the patterns and colours. Of course, it might just be one of those 'perceptive filtering' kind of phenomenons because, being so changed by psychedelics, we unconsciously look for evidence of it, even in places where it might not be there. Maybe...

Its possible that certain limit-experiences (NDE, psychedelics, etc) invoke similar looping feedback processes in the brain, and that the visions/sounds/mental experiences are at least to some extent result of something similar to interference-patterns we see when waves are formed in a pool and interact with each other, except that now we are talking about mental content... And then these similar fractal-like feedback interference experiences, when put in art, seem to be something like what we see in these mosques or other kinds of psychedelic-looking art. I dont know just something that comes to mind, dont want to 'empty' the meaning of the psychedelic experience with such an explanation, its just a hypothesis and its still very mysterious, but who knows something like this might be at least partially responsible for the effects and similarities in these different human expressions.

anyways, I have definitely noticed with ayahuasca that posture makes a LOT of difference in the experience.. laying in a curled up fetal-like position, or even just not sitting straight, seem to diminish one's own 'inner strenght', so to say. If you look at how important postures are in yoga, or for example how Wilhelm Reich made a lot of his work based on how muscle-tension patterns and positions were directly connected with the psique and emotions, or how Gurdjieff also talking about physical postures and it's relation to inner growth, etc etc you get the point, its a recurring theme. In Santo Daime, they have a rule that you cannot cross your arms/legs and have to sit straight to let the energy flow. I have my problems with Santo Daime but anyways its funny that this whole thing of postures and mental/spiritual well-being is so common

I never had thought about/seen/tested the forehead on the ground posture, though, that is kinda interesting, though I definitely DONT want that ugly bump on my forehead haha

lastly, just on a quick note not to continue the debate, but its all about contextualizing and interpretation, burnt.. If someone takes the bible literally or the coran literally or anything really, then of course there will be the problems we see.. and the majority of people suck, of whatever race, group or belief... But I for example have many times read islamic texts, specially from sufis, and I find it incredibly enlightening, very wise and also super peaceful.. They always talk about looking at your own mistakes and not of others, about love, peace, self-development, etc etc Just check out Rumi's poems, for example. So yeah, while I feel its horrible to look at that gun-totting fanatic on the first post, I also know that at least I personally can take something positive from islam, and be awe-inspired in a mosque.

 

[Nordic]

Yeah plux and me looked at some mosque pics once... in a totaly non religios whay... more mystified I'd say by the unexplained verbal explanation for the freaky similarities.

 

[Phlux-]

"There is no history of entheogenic use for entheogenic purposes (sure for medical or recreational) in Islam. Nor could there be. It would be a violation of everything the religion stands for and probably considered blasphamy."

burnt - some sects smoke ganja - some sects beleive only alcahol is haraam, just as there are many kinds of christians (snake squashers, self whippers, pedopriests, etc...) there are many kinds of muslim's.

"Concerning repetative positions. I don't see any benefit of forcing yourself to strain in one position for a long time"

Im healthy, fit and flexible - i dont strain myself, im preddy much comfy in any position.

"I for one don't want my psychedelic experiences to in any way resemble such a twisted and perverted belief system. Not to mention that its all plagarized and barely has any originality."
"prophets like muhammad were temporal lobe epileptics"
"divine dictator whose role model was a pedophile warlord"

Those are quite hektic things to say - i say - you dont need to agree with someone to respect them.

 

[Virola78]

Damn burnt.. ; )
I love your wisdom, you truly know allot about allot of stuff. And i thank you for being here, your posts always interest me and you provide me interesting links and info and stuff. But sometimes you seem just as impossible as those muslims you are talking about.. in this respect you are only filling the role of antithesis (or whats the word)... There is also an neutral side to things you know.

No offence brother.

 

[burnt]

^^Thanks but yea no offense taken.

burnt - some sects smoke ganja - some sects beleive only alcahol is haraam, just as there are many kinds of christians (snake squashers, self whippers, pedopriests, etc...) there are many kinds of muslim's.

This is true and their are groups as endlessness pointed out like Sufi's who do have a mystical component. I didn't mean to say that muslims don't use psychoactive substances but rather that using substances to directly come into contact with the divine (entheogens) is not something that would be acceptable to traditional Islamic teachings (as far as I know). I thought it would be considered blasphomous. Anyone who would claim to be in contact would be a prophet and they don't often take kindly to people claiming to be better to or equal to their prophet Muhammad. Maybe I am wrong I dunno.

"I for one don't want my psychedelic experiences to in any way resemble such a twisted and perverted belief system. Not to mention that its all plagarized and barely has any originality."
"prophets like muhammad were temporal lobe epileptics"
"divine dictator whose role model was a pedophile warlord"

Those are quite hektic things to say - i say - you dont need to agree with someone to respect them.

Its not that hectic really its pretty much true. Muhammad was a warlord who had 12 wives a few of whom he married when they were under 10. Although that was normal back then I don't see it as something to look up too or too respect. There are many other teachings I don't agree with or respect at all in Islam. But I don't want to get into this discussion these are historical facts you can learn about them if you want.

He also could have had temporal lobe epilepsy. So could Jesus and lots of other prophets and mystics. Its not a far fetched thing to say. Many temporal lobe epileptics in modern times have profoundly religious experiences that resemble psychedelic experience. This isn't stuff I am making up.

Its possible that certain limit-experiences (NDE, psychedelics, etc) invoke similar looping feedback processes in the brain, and that the visions/sounds/mental experiences are at least to some extent result of something similar to interference-patterns we see when waves are formed in a pool and interact with each other, except that now we are talking about mental content... And then these similar fractal-like feedback interference experiences, when put in art, seem to be something like what we see in these mosques or other kinds of psychedelic-looking art. I dont know just something that comes to mind, dont want to 'empty' the meaning of the psychedelic experience with such an explanation, its just a hypothesis and its still very mysterious, but who knows something like this might be at least partially responsible for the effects and similarities in these different human expressions.

Yes and this is why I brought up temporal lobe epilepsy. Its one condition that very much resembles certain aspects of the psychedelic experience. Its not the kind of seizures that people just tremble although some people do so its symptoms are not always obvious to onlookers.

anyways, I have definitely noticed with ayahuasca that posture makes a LOT of difference in the experience.. laying in a curled up fetal-like position, or even just not sitting straight, seem to diminish one's own 'inner strenght', so to say. If you look at how important postures are in yoga, or for example how Wilhelm Reich made a lot of his work based on how muscle-tension patterns and positions were directly connected with the psique and emotions, or how Gurdjieff also talking about physical postures and it's relation to inner growth, etc etc you get the point, its a recurring theme. In Santo Daime, they have a rule that you cannot cross your arms/legs and have to sit straight to let the energy flow. I have my problems with Santo Daime but anyways its funny that this whole thing of postures and mental/spiritual well-being is so common

I just think this has more to do with physiology and blood flow and stuff like this. Not something spiritual like Chakra flow or whatever people claim.


Anyway again about Islamic art. The reason its all patterns and things like this is because they are not allowed to draw people. Its too near to being idol worship. So they were left with making patterns and caligraphy things like this. This is why their art and architechture is the way it is.

 

[MagikVenom]

Endlessness

What a human response, I love Humanity and the Earth!



Beginning of general response to thread

Nothing wrong with a Humble Bow but once you begin grinding your forehead into the earth and picking up fully automatic machine guns you have become a fanatic and I WILL see you in Hell and you WILL wish you never invoked the wrath of MV. You see they are condemned or so they say but for me its just another day. See you there if you dare:lol:

Zealots and fanatics breed pestilence. I am out to stop them and make them suffer the fate they deserve, the embarrassment of being a taker a fool someone who makes there own rules.

Me I hang out with the truth and God can never be to far aloof.

Peace
MV

 

[Virola78]

Anyone who thinks Islam is a wise religion should read passages of the Koran. Its filled with blatant violence and bigotry and sexism. I for one don't want my psychedelic experiences to in any way resemble such a twisted and perverted belief system. Not to mention that its all plagarized and barely has any originality.

Surrendering ones ego is the first step of the journey.

Thats different then surrendering to a divine totalitarian dictator.

the loud and extreme minority have given a bad name to their peaceful brothers and sisters, and so those on the outside tend to generalise an a very imbalanced way.

Its not that much of a minority if you look at polling data. The entire notion of extreme Islam is a myth made up by guilty westerns who can't figure out why they are being attacked. All Islam is extreme compared to western secular values. Being a Muslim who doesn't think Sharia law needs to be implemented across the globe is extreme in that religions context.

burnt - as we know here from spice journeys, surrender can be a very positive thing - I think seeing the muslim prayer as a grovelling to god is a little condescending... I mean many many christians fear god in a similar way. yes I'm sure many muslims like christians see it like they need to please their god for fear of being punished... but I'm sure there also those who are simply bowing to the divine, acknowledging the beauty and power of nature and creation.

I don't see how grovelling before the ideas of a 7th century warlord who probably had temporal lobe epilepsy has anything to do with acknowledging the beauty and power of nature. To me its a rejection of the true beauty of human nature as well as the cosmos itself. To claim that its ruled by divine dictator whose role model was a pedophile warlord is not my idea of something beautiful.



But getting back on topic:

this thread was started to discuss postures and their effect on visions in comparison to the inspiration of islamic mosque art perhaps inspired by the regular positioning of the body in the same pose.

I don't think anything psychedelic inspired islamic art. Islamic art is the way it is because drawing people and especially the prophet is not done. So they make symbols and repeating patterns etc. Also before Islam decided to go back into the dark ages they were pretty good at things like math so this probably inspired a lot of their architechture as well.

Also like I said above I think so called prophets like muhammad were temporal lobe epileptics. Temporal lobe epileptics are very prone to religious mystical experience with much overlap between psychedelic experience. I don't think any of it is substance induced though. There is no history of entheogenic use for entheogenic purposes (sure for medical or recreational) in Islam. Nor could there be. It would be a violation of everything the religion stands for and probably considered blasphamy.

Concerning repetative positions. I don't see any benefit of forcing yourself to strain in one position for a long time unless its for stretching or excersizing purposes. For ritual purposes its again just perversion and nonsense designed to get people to suffer and grovel to their leaders whether divine or man.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans, the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces, the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field, and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

 

[Ayawasqero]

Terence K. McKenna talked about DMT as an Arabic labyrinth, maze, or something like that.