Practical questions on ketamine use

[Here&Now]

I'm mostly concerned about the sterility. I've tested it with both reagent testing and TLC, and I can't find any impurity, so if there are any the amounts must be very low. I think ketamine is not usually synthesized by small scale operations because it's not easy (unlike PCP), but I don't know. I would never IM or much less IV it, but purity wise it seems good enough for subq.

Thank you for your advice on sterility. I'll maybe try subq in a few weeks, when I have better access to supplies for it. I have experience with subq from peptides, I never had an issue with those but they were already sterile.

I think you're probably right about ketamine production. In fact, I believe some of what's available is actually pharmaceutical grade from certain countries such as India.

Let us know how it goes. There'll always be more risk in the ROA compared to others, but it's up to your individual degree of risk tolerance to judge whether its use has reached the threshold of "safe enough."

 

[Transform]

I think ketamine is not usually synthesized by small scale operations because it's not easy (unlike PCP)

Without going into excessive detail, ketamine synthesis is far from difficult relative to a lot of organic syntheses. Neither is it trivial though, but that wouldn't put it out of reach of a suitably competent and determined organic chemist. If the synthesis were that difficult ketamine wouldn't be a major pharmacutical of commerce, after all.

 

[blig-blug]

Without going into excessive detail, ketamine synthesis is far from difficult relative to a lot of organic syntheses. Neither is it trivial though, but that wouldn't put it out of reach of a suitably competent and determined organic chemist. If the synthesis were that difficult ketamine wouldn't be a major pharmacutical of commerce, after all.

However it still would have to compete with a lot that apparently still comes from factories, and it may not be economically viable (I don't know).

Still, I only trust it enough for subq regarding purity due to the testing, there are no guarantees for "unregulated" products. If I try it, I will start with an allergy test level dose, just in case.

 

[Here&Now]

As a quick subq dosing guide, 25mg is super relaxing, 50mg is where serious dissociation starts, 75mg is psychedelic and borderline k-hole, and 100mg is almost certainly a k-hole. You can essentially take the nasal doses and cut them in half for equivalent effects.

 

[PedroSanchez]

I may soon have the chance to explore the ketamine space. I have been reading everything I can about it, particularly related to safety (including the sticky thread here). As the dissociative experience is an experience I've never had, I still have a couple of practical questions about it.

First, about the risk of taking it alone. I understand it's preferable to take it with a trip sitter, but I tend to always trip alone. So I'd like to know if the advice of taking it with a trip sitter is just general advice (as one would generally advice with Ayahuasca, for example), or it's a must for safety. From what I have read, I got the impression of it being a must, but I'm still not sure. I don't want to do anything reckless.

Then, there is the question of dosing. My intention is to use it in a therapeutic and spiritual way, and that will require moderate-high doses. Would you recommend starting very low and gradually increasing the dose in successive experiences? Or is a moderate dose reasonable from the get-go? This is in the context of someone moderately experienced with high doses of psychedelics but zero experience with dissociatives.

Last, there is the question of addiction and physical harm. My plan is to limit use to once a week as an absolute maximum. Is this reasonable from a physical safety standpoint, or would you say this already presents moderate risks of physical harm? About psychological addiction and compulsion, have you had the feeling of "needing" to take more after an experience, when the experiences were moderate-high doses spaced out by several days?

I'll appreciate any information or guidance here!

EDIT:
i see now that you have already been there and done that. i really need to start reading threads before i reply. sorry blig-blug!
i will leave my reply here for others.


i have a lot of experience with ketamine so i will help the best i can.

i don't think a sitter is a must, personally. just make sure you can't fall on anything sharp or off anything high. you won't try to jump out of any windows or do anything stupid (assuming good set and setting as usual), but you might fall over and you will definitely stumble around a lot if you try to stand up and walk around (dose dependent).
just make sure you are comfortable and you do not need to go to the toilet or anything, just kick back and enjoy the ride.

as for dose. if you have plenty to experiment with you might want to start with a smaller dose one day, then a few days later, or more, try a higher dose, but you should probably stick to one dose at a time, i wouldn't recommend upping your dose multiple times in one day for your needs, you will probably build tolerance anyway.
if you don't have much to play with then i would probably start with a higher dose. if you go into a hole you will know it was too much, but as long as you are sitting/laying comfortably then you will be okay (as long as it is not a stupid dose). how high that dose should be will depend on a lot, but i will share my experience with therapeutic and spiritual use so maybe you can gauge a little from that.
when i used it i found my sweet spot was 90-100mg at once, intranasally. this would make me tease the edge of a hole, almost in a hole but still aware of my experience. this is potentially a high dose so treat with care. again, make sure you are comfortable and it will be fine if you go too far.
of course the ideal option is to start much lower, maybe 50mg or maybe even less, then take note of the effects and give it a few days and try again. if you are waiting a week as you mentioned then you will have plenty of time for your tolerance to return.

addiction is something i never really experienced with ketamine, even when i was using it for partying in my primitive days. to me it is not very addictive, and it didn't seem to pull in any of the people around me either. but then i have read about people getting serious addiction so maybe it depends on the person, and probably has a lot to do with the persons desire to escape reality. overall i would say addiction is not something you will need to worry about if you stick to your once a week plan. same for the instant addiction, it is noting like cocaine, where you feel like you want more as fast as you can do it. i only felt a desire to do more when i was partying with it, but even then it was a light desire, mostly to party. during therapeutic use i never had that desire at all. but i don't know you and if you have any issues with addiction or desire to escape reality then use this advice with caution.
physical harm was never a problem either, this is not going to mess you up physically with your planned use. just make sure you are comfortable and do not try to walk around or stand up even if you think you can, make sure you clear your area of knives and dangerous objects. assume you will fall out of your chair and clear that area to be safe. it probably won't happen but you will have covered all potential problems that way and can clear your mind of worry. just sit and chill for an hour.

overall i think ketamine is over hyped and surrounded by scare stories. try not to let those stories scare you and everything will be fine. as i keep saying, your biggest threat is probably falling over, so just sit and chill, as fun as it is to walk at a 45 degree angle

have fun! i hope you find what you need. i have had some of the most profound thoughts and ideas with ketamine. i think it helps us get closer to the akashic records, the only problem is remembering the information on the way back!

 

[Jamie01]

Personally I have found I much prefer to divide my dose into 2-3 25 mg doses, spaced apart a few minutes. It makes the transition easier. Then I will do 2 nights in a row. I get the most out of it this way, but I also put it away for months after so never had tolerance issues.

 

[acacian]

Kitchen lab ket is very unlikely IMO.. it's not generally a drug that low level chemists will be able to produce and pharmaceutical companies tend to be very secretive about their synthesis. I think IV/IM if product is pure is probably the cleanest and most effective, however Ketamine can already get really addictive and for that reason alone I would advise against it.. introducing needles into the equation with an already potentially addictive compound is risky. But you know yourself.. and it's fortunately a substance with essentially no risk of physical overdose.

I'd just figure out what dose works well for you intranasally and figure out how many mg of ket you need per ml of solution to deliver your desired dose. Or if you don't mind intranasal then just roll with that. Ketamine can really mess with your nose, especially if using often.. it really can put a dampener on the experience IME. I haven't really found a very effective way to avoid the blocked nose short of nasal sprays.

Interesting @Jamie01 regarding your way of dividing doses.. is that for going deep? I've always found it easier to surrender to the deep experiences if I do all my preparation for the space prior (get playlist or album ready, incense, dim lighting, turn phone off/pull curtains shut etc, go lie down) and then just take it all in one dose. Then I lay down within a few minutes of ingestion and let it take over.. I'll usually have some smaller bumps leading in and then when I'm ready I go for gold.

I agree with @PedroSanchez that a sitter is optional.. however for first times it is good to have someone there in case you are prone to vomitting while on Ketamine. If you are, then I would absolutely have a sitter around if taking large out of body doses as there may be risk of choking.. I guess you've already got that figured out at this point though.

 

[Here&Now]

I think IV/IM if product is pure is probably the cleanest and most effective, however Ketamine can already get really addictive and for that reason alone I would advise against it.. introducing needles into the equation with an already potentially addictive compound is risky.

Is it true that the use of a syringe would increase the likelihood of addiction? I would have thought that assumption would be due to their common association with highly addictive substances like heroin rather than the use of the ROA itself. But maybe there's some kind of psychological trigger to injecting a substance that increases craving.

 

[blig-blug]

Is it true that the use of a syringe would increase the likelihood of addiction?

According to the book Ketamine: Dreams and Realities, by Jansen, yes. This usually comes from population studies, so it's difficult to know what factors are at play, and how the risk would apply to oneself. I imagine a more intense but shorter experience could be more enticing to repeat. I personally will steer clear from IV and IM, I only consider subcutaneous for myself.

 

[Here&Now]

According to the book Ketamine: Dreams and Realities, by Jansen, yes. This usually comes from population studies, so it's difficult to know what factors are at play, and how the risk would apply to oneself. I imagine a more intense but shorter experience could be more enticing to repeat. I personally will steer clear from IV and IM, I only consider subcutaneous for myself.

That is interesting. I guess it does makes sense that a more intense experience could increase the likelihood of addiction.

Also, when it comes to ketamine, I think some people just like it way too much. By its nature, it's a substance that seems to subtract from the quality of mindfulness, which is the opposite of most classical psychedelics. It's similar to alcohol in that way. Nitrous is an even more apt example. They have a way of fogging the mind, and a person can find themselves reaching for more without even consciously having gone through the mental process of deciding to do so. Definitely something to watch out for, but it's also specific to the individual whether you'll be like that.

 

[Jamie01]

I'll usually have some smaller bumps leading in and then when I'm ready I go for gold.

Some version of that anyway. Sometimes my last one will be larger. Sometimes I start lower than 25. I need to get it all in within like 5-6 minutes either way or I don’t fully dissociate.

 

[acacian]

Is it true that the use of a syringe would increase the likelihood of addiction? I would have thought that assumption would be due to their common association with highly addictive substances like heroin rather than the use of the ROA itself. But maybe there's some kind of psychological trigger to injecting a substance that increases craving.

IME you take a substance you already really enjoy and administer it IV.. its just a much more euphoric rush and you will want to do it again just for those first couple minutes.. regardless of the overall experience that ensues afterwards. I find ketamine quite addictive personally so I have avoided using it IV.. despite acknowledging it would solve the nasal issues.

 

[Jamie01]

I have heard more than once on podcasts with providers that ketamine when used nasally in large doses it has some opioid agonist activity that is not present when IM/IV ketamine is used. I cannot however find any references for these claims, and I can’t remember which podcasts…

 

[blig-blug]

I have heard more than once on podcasts with providers that ketamine when used nasally in large doses it has some opioid agonist activity that is not present when IM/IV ketamine is used. I cannot however find any references for these claims, and I can’t remember which podcasts…

I don't think it's related to the "nasal" part, but to the "large doses" part. According to Psychonaut Wiki:

At high, fully-anesthetic level doses, ketamine has also been found to bind to μ-opioid receptors type 2 in cultured human neuroblastoma cells without agonist activity[21] and to sigma receptors in rats.[22]

However that's in vitro and in rats. I don't know if it has been observed to happen in humans.

 

[Jamie01]

I actually think the same provider, at least one of them is also claiming “ ketamine is of the earth”…because of the paper apparently finding it in Pochonia chlamydosporia. That paper seems to have been debunked by people who can actually understand the biochemistry. I figure it’s all to gain hype around their model/business.

 

[PedroSanchez]

am i the only person who doesn't really mind the sting in the nose that much? it's uncomfortable but it's not enough to be much of a factor when choosing a MOA. for me intranasal is so quick and easy and gives me what i need without fuss. it's over quicker than the time it takes to prep a needle.

 

[acacian]

@PedroSanchez Yeah I like the sting and also the vibration that washes over my face moments later.. its the brutal blocked nose I get a couple hours later that does my head in. I become a large scale mucus factory and it makes sleep near impossible. I almost exclusively use intranasal but the blocked nose thing can be a real dampener on an otherwise great experience.

@Jamie01 that's interesting about intranasal targetting opioid receptors.. I wonder what would make the difference there.

 

[Jamie01]

The dopaminergic effects of esketamine are mediated by a dual mechanism involving glutamate and opioid receptors - Molecular Psychiatry

Esketamine represents a new class of drugs for treating mood disorders. Unlike traditional monoaminergic-based therapies, esketamine primarily targets N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors (NMDAR). However, esketamine is a complex drug with low affinity for NMDAR and can also bind to other targets...

www.nature.com

I wonder if it’s just the S isomer or both R and S that can activate opioid receptors?

 

[Here&Now]

IME you take a substance you already really enjoy and administer it IV.. its just a much more euphoric rush and you will want to do it again just for those first couple minutes.. regardless of the overall experience that ensues afterwards. I find ketamine quite addictive personally so I have avoided using it IV.. despite acknowledging it would solve the nasal issues.

Yeah, after thinking about it more, I believe you're right. When it comes to people becoming progressively more reckless with addictive drugs, the typical result is to ultimately land on IV. So there's obviously something to the idea.

 

[Here&Now]

am i the only person who doesn't really mind the sting in the nose that much? it's uncomfortable but it's not enough to be much of a factor when choosing a MOA. for me intranasal is so quick and easy and gives me what i need without fuss. it's over quicker than the time it takes to prep a needle.

For me, I dislike the feeling, and I assume that damage is being done that lasts for at least a few days afterward. It's also distracting in the moment, when all I want to be able to do is let go without physical sensations grabbing at my attention.