What causes one type of mushroom to lose more potency than another?
-
Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).
psilocybe cyanescens vs panaleous cyanescens?
- Thread starter Al-Wasi
- Start date
infinitynlove
Mushroom Explorer
anrchy said:
Stubbornness?
Just seems to me that's its more variation in drying than the type of mushroom.
I really think it's enzymatic, and the 'exposure to air' theory is overstated. Temperature seems to be more of a factor, as the oxidoreductases are apparently more active above room temp with the cyanescens variety.
Which would make sense, as the article cited the collections were stored at 5 deg Celsius.
I haven't seen any degradation in potency of any mushrooms that i have had, they are always stored in the freezer or atleast the fridge.
Is oxidation slowed by temperature decrease?
I haven't seen any degradation in potency of any mushrooms that i have had, they are always stored in the freezer or atleast the fridge.
Is oxidation slowed by temperature decrease?
infinitynlove
Mushroom Explorer
benzyme said:
hi
So to me ( and this is all just an idea, what seems right ) the optimum way to dry panaleous cyanescens to maintain as much potency as possible would be to first cold shock the shrooms by putting in the fridge for 24 hours, this would help slow down biological processes and growth then dry by pumping a reasonably fast flow of cooled extremely low humidify compressed air into a chamber similar to a dehydrator.
The low humidity would leech out the moisture with a decrease in temperature slowing down natural enzymatic and other chemical and biological processes going on in fungi, this way the final product is left with little or no degradation by the lack of heat in the drying process.
What do you guys think?
Peace
I think vacuum drying would work better. Probably the best way to go about it really. Increasing atmosphere would trap the humidity slowing down the drying method. Decreasing atmosphere speeds up the evaporation of moisture and removes oxygen from the equation.
anrchy said:
absolutely.
heat always accelerates oxidation, enzymatic or not.
infinitynlove
Mushroom Explorer
anrchy said:
Ah ! so making or buying a good vacuum chamber would be good for drying these, i would love to grow pan cyans, some great grows the shroomery, I love captian future and stonesun grows ... a cool pan cyan grow stoneshuns Panaeolus cyanescens/Red Down Under
benzyme said:
Ah so if one was to make or buy a vacuum chamber and dry them with the chamber in a fridge, in the dark, then put them with silca packs in a jar with argon wine winesave preserver used to replace the air in the jar, store in a cool dark place, would lose minimal actives and keep them for the duration?
Once dry would they maintain actives for a similar amount of time as liberty caps? or would they degrade quicker?
Thanks for all your replies
Peace
What you would want is called a vacuum dessicator, something i want really bad as it could be used for multiple things. Im curious how enzymatic degradation is affected in a vacuum. I feel like decreasing the temp wouldnt be necassary.
IME mushrooms stored in the freezer had zero potency loss even after 2+ years.
IME mushrooms stored in the freezer had zero potency loss even after 2+ years.
infinitynlove
Mushroom Explorer
hianrchy said:
yeah that sounds awsome i want one, but if this type of mushroom looses a lot of potency on drying, and degradation is accelerated by heat, drying and cooled at the same time would seem to be optimum, i have a spare empty fridge!
Peace
I wonder if there are any alkaline phosphatase inhibitors that would be safe to use in order to inhibit enzymatic breakdown.
Swayambhu
Rising Star
Sorry for the necropost, but as I begin to approach the idea of cultivation, the question of potency in storage is one that didn't really occur to me before. Reading this thread it seems psilocybe cyanescens have positively poor potency retention in the long term? Does anyone have any further findings on that? Being seasonal it would be a fairly important point for an outdoor cultivator who wanted to enjoy fruits year round.
And while Im here, is there any other knowledge to be had on the various psychoactive species vs. long term storage?
My only experience is with p. semilanceata which seem pretty stable, both anecdotally and in my own experience.
And while Im here, is there any other knowledge to be had on the various psychoactive species vs. long term storage?
My only experience is with p. semilanceata which seem pretty stable, both anecdotally and in my own experience.
Hey dude, better to resurrect a good old thread than start a new one methinks! 8) It seems to vary a bit with species. Psilocybe cubensis doesn't seem to retain potency as well as some species do long term, I've heard reports of enzymatic degradation of the psilocybin over time.
I heard a report off mycologist John Allen, who claimed a batch of P. semilanceata were found dating back half a century or more, they were bioassayed or analysed (I can't recall which) and were still found to potent...these mushrooms seem to retain potency very well, even at room temperature I've noticed.
With Panaeolus cyanescens it really depends on the strain...they seem to vary widely in their psilocybin/psilocin ratios, much more say than Psilocybe cubensis. For example specimens of the species from Hawaii have been found to be rich in psilocybin, with little psilocin, whereas specimens from Australia and Thailand have been found to be almost totally lacking in psilocybin, containing only psilocin (see linked paper below) making it likely these specimens lose much more potency on drying than Hawaiian specimens. Psilocybin is a much more stable molecule than psilocin, so the more of that in your mushrooms, the better (if drying for long term storage). A relevant paper on this is linked below if you want to read up a bit on this.
http://repository.naturalis.nl/document/569927
I've heard Psilocybe mexicana has very little bluing reaction unlike other psilocybes like P. cubensis, this is suggestive that is similar to P. semilanceata in this respect and contains a high psilocybin/psilocin ratio which is a plus.
Psilocybe cyanescens will lose a little magic on drying, but stored well I don't think you need to worry much about potency loss. Fantastic mushrooms in my experience and definitely worthy of growing.
I heard a report off mycologist John Allen, who claimed a batch of P. semilanceata were found dating back half a century or more, they were bioassayed or analysed (I can't recall which) and were still found to potent...these mushrooms seem to retain potency very well, even at room temperature I've noticed.
With Panaeolus cyanescens it really depends on the strain...they seem to vary widely in their psilocybin/psilocin ratios, much more say than Psilocybe cubensis. For example specimens of the species from Hawaii have been found to be rich in psilocybin, with little psilocin, whereas specimens from Australia and Thailand have been found to be almost totally lacking in psilocybin, containing only psilocin (see linked paper below) making it likely these specimens lose much more potency on drying than Hawaiian specimens. Psilocybin is a much more stable molecule than psilocin, so the more of that in your mushrooms, the better (if drying for long term storage). A relevant paper on this is linked below if you want to read up a bit on this.
http://repository.naturalis.nl/document/569927
I've heard Psilocybe mexicana has very little bluing reaction unlike other psilocybes like P. cubensis, this is suggestive that is similar to P. semilanceata in this respect and contains a high psilocybin/psilocin ratio which is a plus.
Psilocybe cyanescens will lose a little magic on drying, but stored well I don't think you need to worry much about potency loss. Fantastic mushrooms in my experience and definitely worthy of growing.
Luckily though, it's only a little. I've had a few pretty magical experiences with dried ones.Bancopuma said:
P.cyanescens is the best mushroom there is imho. It's clean, friendly, energetic and powerfull. I would prefer dried cyanescens over any strain of fresh cubensis.
Oh yeah, I concur...I was lucky enough to stumble across a P. cyanescens patch growing just a stone's throw from where I live this past winter! Consistently fantastic mushrooms and a higher order experience than P. cubensis IMO.
Swayambhu
Rising Star
One of the problems, a good problem to have, of course, is so many options!
Rightly or wrongly I've kind of written off cubensis, as they seem generally to be the least esteemed.
At the moment I've been boning up on outdoor psilocybe cyanescens cultivation, as it seems to be a highly esteemed species, but also the whole outdoor grow thing is very appealing. I'm a family man and there is a difference in perception, both to myself and to others, in "eccentric plonker tends patch of "medicinal" fungi", and "wild eyed science dropout tends hidden basement mushroom laboratory". You get the idea.
Or perhaps I should stop thinking of my life as a series of alternate newspaper headlines? Ha-ha.
Rightly or wrongly I've kind of written off cubensis, as they seem generally to be the least esteemed.
At the moment I've been boning up on outdoor psilocybe cyanescens cultivation, as it seems to be a highly esteemed species, but also the whole outdoor grow thing is very appealing. I'm a family man and there is a difference in perception, both to myself and to others, in "eccentric plonker tends patch of "medicinal" fungi", and "wild eyed science dropout tends hidden basement mushroom laboratory". You get the idea.
Or perhaps I should stop thinking of my life as a series of alternate newspaper headlines? Ha-ha.
Swayambhu
Rising Star
Bancopuma said:
Have you much experience with semilanceata, bancopuma? And how it might compare with psilocybe cyanescens?
Semilanceata is the only mushroom I'm familiar with, and am always on the look out for comparisons, but there are very few online for that particular species.
Hey Swayambhu, yeah I've had a fair bit of experience with P. semilanceata over the years. I've mostly really good experiences with them, and a few weird and more turbulent ones, I find the coming up transitional period with these can be quite intense and bumpy at times...maybe this is down to the baeocystin or phenethylamine they can contain.
In my experience (I have much less experience with P. cyanescens relative to P semilanceata) they are definitely quite distinct in character, but kinda hard to articulate how in words. Of all the mushroom species I've experienced so far, I find the P. cyanescens to be the most reliable at inducing a state of calm, peaceful serenity...this has been consistent each time I've had them. Everyone who has sampled this particular batch from this one woodchip bed has noted how pleasant they are. I've heard that mushrooms of this species growing in the UK are less potent than their American kin, but I found the experienced induced by them much more controllable in some sense than some other mushrooms, compared to say P. cubensis which can be pretty in your face at high doses. The P. cyanescens experience for myself and my friends was a very internal (but beautiful) experience...not a whole lot going on with eyes open really compared to other mushroom experiences I've had, but a whole other universe behind closed eye lids. This was a property noted by all of us that have consumed this mushroom. I would rate it more highly than P. semilanceata personally, but still not as highly as the Hawaiian Panaeolus cyanescens.
In my experience (I have much less experience with P. cyanescens relative to P semilanceata) they are definitely quite distinct in character, but kinda hard to articulate how in words. Of all the mushroom species I've experienced so far, I find the P. cyanescens to be the most reliable at inducing a state of calm, peaceful serenity...this has been consistent each time I've had them. Everyone who has sampled this particular batch from this one woodchip bed has noted how pleasant they are. I've heard that mushrooms of this species growing in the UK are less potent than their American kin, but I found the experienced induced by them much more controllable in some sense than some other mushrooms, compared to say P. cubensis which can be pretty in your face at high doses. The P. cyanescens experience for myself and my friends was a very internal (but beautiful) experience...not a whole lot going on with eyes open really compared to other mushroom experiences I've had, but a whole other universe behind closed eye lids. This was a property noted by all of us that have consumed this mushroom. I would rate it more highly than P. semilanceata personally, but still not as highly as the Hawaiian Panaeolus cyanescens.
Swayambhu
Rising Star
Bancopuma said:
I find the come up to be the "therapy" session with semilanceata. Digging up the psycho-emotional potatoes. Which can be very valuable and has lead to important insights, but actually not something I always want to the degree that I usually get it.
I think I'll pursue the psilcybe cyanescens cultivation route for now, being more my style.
But I'll be waiting with interest to see how your p. mexicana endeavours turn out, bancopuma.