Pure acetone for FASA method (making DMT fumerate)?

[DoorSeeker]

Can one use pure acetone for a FASA tek to make DMT fumerate like this one?

The FASA Method - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

The method says to use anhydrous acetone which I have no idea where to get it. One is just trying to convert DMT freebase to DMT fumerate. How different are the two? What would happen if one just replaced the tek with equal amounts of acetone instead of anhydrous acetone? Thanks!

 

[DansMaTete]

Reading threads linked in this wiki page (The FASA method) is a good way to get a better understanding of the tek.

e.g : here

You can easily turn hardware store acetone into anhydrous acetone with the simple process I've outlined below. To do this, you'll need to go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the following items: a 1 liter can of acetone and a bag of epsom salts.

Heat some epsom salts on an aluminum foil covered baking sheet in the oven for 2 hours at 400 degrees F. After 2 hours of heating, the epsom salts have now been turned into anhydrous magnesium sulphate. Crazy huh?

Take 10-20 grams of your greyish ash looking anhydrous magnesium sulphate and pour it directly into your can of hardware store acetone. Shake the can vigorously for a few minutes to circulate the magnesium sulphate and then let it settle for 24 hours. The magnesium sulphate will absorb all of the water and/or alcohol from the hardware store acetone and sink it to the bottom of the can where it shall remain forever.

Therefore from now on, never pour from the can, instead use a glass eye dropper or glass pipette (glass straw) to reach down inside of the can to extract however much anhydrous acetone you'll be requiring. Always stay away from the bottom of the can. Once the can get's about half way down, discard and repeat the process with a fresh can of acetone. Always use glass hardware when using acetone. Acetone will melt plastic.

 

[DoorSeeker]

Okay, Thanks! Does this mean that pure acetone is the same thing as anhydrous acetone then? I checked the msds and there is nothing else in the can of acetone. Can I just use the acetone without the epsom salt then?

 

[DansMaTete]

I repeat :"Reading threads linked in this wiki page (The FASA method) is a good way to get a better understanding of the tek." Spoonfeeding is not the way of nexus, so read.

A quote from the same thread i linked before.

Most people trying these methods will be buying acetone from a hardware store. Hardware store acetone is generally not anhydrous, it contains some amount of water and/or alcohols.

 

[DoorSeeker]

I have read these threads. The quote you linked to doesn't tell me what will happen if one uses acetone that mentions no other ingredients in it's msds. Besides, the quote uses the word "generally" which doesn't necessarily address my specific question. Even if there is a small amount of water, wouldn't you still be able to just do the same method and you end up decanting a bit of water? A bit of water would just take a bit longer to evaporate but otherwise it would be the same, no?

DansMaTete, I am not necessarily asking you, especially if you feel like you are "spoonfeeding" me. I don't want anyone to feel like they are doing that. I would appreciate an answer from you but if you really feel that way I will wait for someone who is either more forgiving of my unintentional lack of resourcing or understands, at least, my interpretation of the level of my question as it relates to accessible answers on the nexus. I will say that your answer seems a bit harsh, especially with the plethora of novice level questions I see in the 'welcome area', which are usually accompanied by much more forgiving answers. I'm not trying to be condescending or confrontational or anything, just sharing my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Jees]

Initial pure acetone can attract water from the air when it is exposed to it, just like alcohols it is hygroscopic. So the water content in your acetone can vary according to exposure to humidity. The MSDS sheet numbers cannot take this into account.

If you ask what happens when you use that bottle, no one can say as no one possibly know what happened to your acetone hygroscopic wise. No one can answer your specific question.

Decanting water as you propose, doesn't work that way, would be cute but no.

The only thing people know is, if treated with dry MgSO4, you've done your best to have a dry as possible acetone.

 

[DansMaTete]

..., acetone must be anhydrous or the water content will keep a portion of the dmt fumarate in the solvent

 

[pitubo]

Dear Doorseeker, please reread the dmt-nexus Attitude page, especially this part: 1.4 Critical thinking and basic autonomy.

When you want to use the techniques elaborated here, you need to try to obtain a substantial understanding about the whats, hows and whys of the procedures and their underlying principles. I feel that you may need to put in a little more effort here.

Before considering my reply condescending or harsh, please remind yourself that I am freely putting in an effort to help you furthering your quest, even if my efforts may not be in the form you expected them. The same goes for the other answers you received.

I am questioning your understanding of the matter at hand because for starters you have to ask what "anhydrous acetone" is. IMHO this is a bit of primary knowledge that you need to possess before going ahead. This knowledge could have been easily attained with a bit of informed searching and reading, even from the bare material on this site.

When you write:

Even if there is a small amount of water, wouldn't you still be able to just do the same method and you end up decanting a bit of water? A bit of water would just take a bit longer to evaporate but otherwise it would be the same, no?

You are pointing out the fact that you don't understand that acetone and water freely mix in any proportion, thus they cannot be decanted from each other. Even more worrisome is that, by mentioning "evaporating", you indicate that you apparently have no overview of the FASA technique at all, let alone a substantial understanding of the principles involved.

How can you expect other people to give you informational answers when you do not understand the questions you are asking? It is like asking them to sow pumpkin seeds in a pool of salt water. IMHO it is not unreasonable to expect a patch of fertile soil that has had an appropriate amount of clearing and irrigation (and perhaps some tilling) before being asked to assist in seeding the lot with beautiful flowers of knowledge.

I have read these threads.

Excellent! Next step is to try to digest and understand the information presented in these threads.

 

[DoorSeeker]

Pitubo, can you please show me where I asked what anhydrous acetone is? I never did that. What I am trying to understand is how different they are with regard to how much of a problem is it to use pure acetone instead of anhydrous acetone in the tek. Note, I didn't just ask about acetone, but pure acetone. If it can easily be read otherwise and my questions were vague or worded badly, I apologize for that. Frankly, no one has fully answered my question. Jees seems to have come the closest to answering my question (thank you Jees) and he honestly said, there is really no way to know. I don't know why asking a question that no one can fully answer implies I'm not doing my basic research.

It seems to me that pure acetone is anhydrous acetone. If all the epsom salt is doing is pulling out any water or alcohol and not altering the actual structure of the acetone, they would be the same then. Now really, the debate seems to be is what is the definition of pure acetone and this seems to be the grey area. Is acetone that has nothing else in the msds pure? Does the small amount of water mean it's not pure? In that case pure acetone is the same as anhydrous acetone. If my only worry is a bit of water from the air getting in the acetone what good is cooked epsom salt if the anhydrous acetone is just going to be exposed to air anyway. The epsom salt step seems pointless for pure acetone or even acetone exposed to the air.

As for the decanting, you are completely misunderstanding what I meant. What I was saying is not to decant the water from the solvent. I meant when I decant the solvent I will pull in a small amount of water with it. My question is, why does this even matter?

As for the evaporation comment... It says right in the tek to air dry... "Collect the salted product onto an evaporation dish and dry by air-drying or by oven-drying on the lowest possible heat setting." The FASA Method - DMT-Nexus Wiki

 

[Jees]

... The epsom salt step seems pointless for pure acetone or even acetone exposed to the air...

Once you work with that acetone and some air humid comes in, well there was nothing much to do against that except go living in a dry desert. But at least you know you're on a minimum water content, practically obtainable kitchen style wise. Thus not so pointless I think.

 

[Mindlusion]

i understand pitubo's pain, this whole thread is redundant

pure acetone means nothing. there are different grades of acetone, hardware store tech grade, reagent grade, ACS grade, HPLC grade, etc etc... all varying in different levels of purity to the thousandth percent and beyond.

hardware store acetone will have some alcohols, some water, small polar molecule impurities that have no effect on the properties of it at all, in fact this is the grade commonly used in chemistry labs for most purposes as a reaction solvent or to clean glass. HPLC grade is extremely pure acetone, without any of these polar molecule impurities, its usually dry too, but as soon as you open the bottle under normal conditions, it sucks up water and now its wet.

so this is why he asks you about anhydrous acetone because pure acetone is redundant, its not even an actual grade

 

[downwardsfromzero]

can you please show me where I asked what anhydrous acetone is?

Here (implicitly):

Does this mean that pure acetone is the same thing as anhydrous acetone then? I checked the msds and there is nothing else in the can of acetone.

Note that MSDS's are not the most reliable source of accurate analytical information, especially if they list something at 100%.

 

[pitubo]

Hi Doorseeker,

I guess I owe you an apology for being so grumpy and too quick to jump to assumptions after misunderstanding your questions.

Of course, pure acetone is anhydrous. The reverse is not necessarily true: anhydrous acetone can still be contaminated by eg. acetic acid or various alcohols.

The FASA method relies on the solubility of both dmt freebase and fumaric acid in anhydrous (or "dry" ) acetone, and the insolubility of dmt fumarate in it. The dmt fumarate that is formed precipitates as crystals, while any excess fumaric acid (or dmt freebase) will stay in solution, if you do it right.

The importance of the acetone being anhydrous lies in the fact that dmt fumarate is soluble in water and any water mixed in with the acetone will increase the solubility of the dmt fumarate in it, thus preventing the fumarate from crystallizing out. Any other major impurity in the acetone that has the same effect should also be avoided. For this reason you should also take care to keep the reaction container closed off from ambient air while reacting and precipitating or it will pick up moisture from it.

I think it may be an easy test to assess the suitability of your acetone by observing the solubility of fumaric acid in it. Dry acetone should not dissolve much more than 7 grams of fumaric acid. So if you were to drop 0.8 gram of fumaric acid into 100 ml of acetone, some residue should remain, even after good stirring. If more fumaric acid dissolves than it should, that is a clear sign that your acetone is too wet or otherwise unsuited. Obviously, you should also shut out ambient moisture while dissolving the fumaric acid.

 

[Mindlusion]

pure acetone is anhydrous, if pure acetone is assuming 99.999... and so on

but if your 'pure acetone' is the stuff they sell as profressional nail polish remover, its actually just marketing... and you can bet your monies its certainly not anhydrous

 

[DoorSeeker]

This is the info I'm looking for. Makes sense now! Thanks! :thumb_up:

Pitubo, no worries. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Jees]

What about molecular sieves?

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Dry the liquid and then have a thin layer of those at the bottom.
Haven't seen people reporting the use of those, wondering why, it there a catch?
Should work on acetone too?

 

[pitubo]

Haven't seen people reporting the use of those, wondering why, it there a catch?

Yes, there is. Molecular sieves are apparently so strongly basic that they will catalyze the self-condensation of acetone, causing the formation of diacetone alcohol, mesityl oxide and perhaps even more condensation and dehydration products.

AFAIK the recommended drying agents for acetone are the anhydrous forms of MgSO4, Na2SO4, CaSO4 and K2CO3. Another common drying agent, CaCl2 is not suitable either because it forms an adduct with acetone and is slightly soluble in it.

 

[Jees]

You're right pitubo:

...3A form is suitable for drying acetonitrile, methanol,
and ethanol, and higher alcohols require the use of powdered 3A sieves. They are not
useful for drying acetone because they cause self-condensation...

 

[Sore]

HPLC grade is extremely pure acetone, without any of these polar molecule impurities, its usually dry too, but as soon as you open the bottle under normal conditions, it sucks up water and now its wet.

Is there a significant benefit for MH or AC when extracting or is it just a faster process?

I considered using Hydrachrolic acid for an Acacia Confusa extract as the Naphtha (Shellite) here is bad quality, I can also get my hands on Xylene and Heptane but am unsure of the quality, maybe there is a similar process to improve on commercial grade shellite?

Any info would be much appreciated or you could point me in the right direction if you don't mind, I don't wanna be spoon fed but I wouldn't know where to start (Already had a look under FAQ "DMT Extraction 4.6 & 4.7")

 

[pitubo]

Is there a significant benefit for MH or AC when extracting or is it just a faster process?

Common A/B or STB extraction techniques don't use acetone, so I'm not sure how to interpret your question.

I considered using Hydrachrolic acid for an Acacia Confusa extract as the Naphtha (Shellite) here is bad quality,

I've never heard of "Hydrachrolic" but I assume that you meant "hydrochloric". It is not a substitute for naphtha, anyway. I find your questions very confusing. Perhaps if you did a bit more reading in the excellent dmt-nexus wiki and a whole bunch of sticky threads (at the top of each subforum), we could find a better common ground for mutual understanding of the issues and the terminology.

I can also get my hands on Xylene and Heptane but am unsure of the quality, maybe there is a similar process to improve on commercial grade shellite?

Removing the water from solvents using Epsom salts does not generally purify these solvents. Actually, I already wrote that in a posting earlier in this thread.

Any info would be much appreciated or you could point me in the right direction if you don't mind, I don't wanna be spoon fed but I wouldn't know where to start (Already had a look under FAQ "DMT Extraction 4.6 & 4.7")

Here's a spoonful of good advice: read read read. After you read all the basic info, look into the backsalting techniques, where dmt freebase is pulled from a nonpolar solvent like naphtha, xylene, limonene or even vegetable oil, using fumaric acid dissolved in acetone.