Quest for most potent cactus - from seeds with help of pereskiopsis grafting

[Wakinyan]

Sounds good, but tell me one thing, Wakynian. I have noticed on some of your pictures you are using ordinary soil, or some mix of soil. The pictures were those using peroxide, if you remember. Why aren't you using plain sand as well? Does it have any advantage to use soil?

The hydrogen peroxide experiment did have a top dressing of sand. Although, the sand was from my yard... I find it works just fine. I've since grafted most of the seedlings in my hydrogen peroxide experiment, but of course there are some stragglers. I'll get some photographs up later as I don't discard the soil for quite some time due to stragglers sprouting.

The main advantage I find in using soil and or sand from my own yard is that I get less fungal death to my seedlings. On the downside, I also add in wild seed from around the yard which has to be plucked out as it germinates.

With that being said, I often use premixed garden soil as well. It all depends on how big of a hurry I am to get my seedlings going. I've pretty much figured out how to make minor adjustments to almost any soil I come into contact with for the growth and germination of my seedlings.

The one thing I can advise you against... don't use commercial seed starting mix for your cacti. That is where you will inevitably come up with fungal problems.

I've even grown cacti seedlings in 100% peat via a product called Jiffy Pellets.

 

[pete666]

Thanks for answering Wakinyan.
Meanwhile I have successfully sprouted the seeds in the sand. They were sown 16 days ago. Today I decided to graft first tray (20 containers). It is macrogonus.
Your advices were priceless, thanks a lot! Hopefully they will take on...

 

[Wakinyan]

I have looked at all of your photographs and downloaded them to get best resolution. I can not 100% say whether you are on the ring or not with any of these grafts, but from what I can see you are well on your way! You already look like a professional and your set up is to kill for. Very well done!

With that being said, I can and do graft with specimens as woody as yours. When you see the ring come up and out when it dries I consider that being moderately woody. Those specimens that are moderately woody can be grafted like this and parafilm is the key to making that easy in my book. However, I prefer to let a small fresh shoot jump out and graft to that young shoot or to graft to an areole/leaf when my specimens are that woody. Just my personal preference.

I will see if I can find some pictures that may be of help for the next .

Taking the time to look back, I see you have all the pictures you need I think. Okay, just going to keep my fingers crossed for you my friend. From what I can tell you are going to excel at grafting if not this very first go round... very soon afterwards.

 

[pete666]

Thanks Wakinyan! I have tried to place it on the ring, I only hope I understand what the ring is I have seen all possible pictures on the internet and I believe I should be good.

Yes, you are right. Timing of seeds and my peres is not perfect, I know. Peres is quite high already. I was thinking about cutting it and waiting for fresh shoots, but then I decided to try it. I am still in the process of learning how to grow the peres indoor, how to sprout seeds, how to graft, how to ... million things. I am expecting some mistakes. I have already overfed the peres, killed some seeds by too much water. Luckily something is telling me what I am doing wrong, so I can correct it and continue.

I will let you know how it goes, post pictures and discuss problems, if they occur...

 

[Wakinyan]

Thanks Wakinyan! I have tried to place it on the ring, I only hope I understand what the ring is I have seen all possible pictures on the internet and I believe I should be good.

Yes, you are right. Timing of seeds and my peres is not perfect, I know. Peres is quite high already. I was thinking about cutting it and waiting for fresh shoots, but then I decided to try it. I am still in the process of learning how to grow the peres indoor, how to sprout seeds, how to graft, how to ... million things. I am expecting some mistakes. I have already overfed the peres, killed some seeds by too much water. Luckily something is telling me what I am doing wrong, so I can correct it and continue.

I will let you know how it goes, post pictures and discuss problems, if they occur...

The height of your Pereskiopsis is actually perfect my friend. The growth itself appears to be a little older than what I prefer is all. For something like what you have, I would have let them grow another 2 weeks and then grafted on a shoot that came up from below the cut. You may even have ended up grafting at a higher place if that were the case.

I doubt you overfed your Pereskiopsis. If you experienced any problems, I would say it was because the Pereskiopsis were not well rooted or calloused before you fed them.

With that being said, listen to your gut. What works for me may need tweaking for you. The best grafters look at others grafts and take in information, but in the end they adjust for their own environment and circumstances.

I'm a perfectionist sometimes when it comes to grafts and I can tell you that you have a very nice setup and one to be envied for a seasoned grafter even. If there are some minor mistakes, they will soon iron out and you will be as good if not a better grafter than I am. I am certain of that given how well you have started. My first grafting attempts were no where near as good as yours.

 

[pete666]

The height of your Pereskiopsis is actually perfect my friend. The growth itself appears to be a little older than what I prefer is all. For something like what you have, I would have let them grow another 2 weeks and then grafted on a shoot that came up from below the cut. You may even have ended up grafting at a higher place if that were the case.

The pereskiopsis was about 35-40cm tall when cut (and therefore slightly woody). It has to be cut as high as it is or maybe even lower, because of limited height in the growbox. Ideal would be letting it grow to 20cm and then cutting in the middle. But this calls for better time planning when to sown seeds.

I doubt you overfed your Pereskiopsis. If you experienced any problems, I would say it was because the Pereskiopsis were not well rooted or calloused before you fed them.

It was growing very nice and really fast, so the root mass had to be already developed. But I was feeding it with fertilizer with low N and high K and I mixed in too much Mg as well. The growth stopped, likely K blocked other nutrients. I have some experience with mj hydroponic growing, but there it is much easier, as measuring TDS of water is really simple compared to soil. I was pushing too much.

What do you mean by peres not being well calloused? I have read everywhere it is not necessary to callouse it.

 

[Wakinyan]

The pereskiopsis was about 35-40cm tall when cut (and therefore slightly woody). It has to be cut as high as it is or maybe even lower, because of limited height in the growbox. Ideal would be letting it grow to 20cm and then cutting in the middle. But this calls for better time planning when to sown seeds.

The taller your Pereskiopsis is the faster your growth is going to be on your scion especially so if you can ensure the leaves stay green and intact through the grow out.

With that being said, cut just above a node/areole and you will be certain that new growth will indeed come out from that node that is nice and soft green. While that may not look as nice, it will provide for an excellent fresh green growth (stock) for your scion which will make things take a bit easier. Not necessary mind you, but it will improve your take rate just a bit.

Baring that, just graft the tip of fresh growing growth and discard rather than use a middle or bottom cut of Pereskiopsis. Those are the fixes or work arounds that I have for you, and to be 100% honest... once you have some more experience it really won't be much of an issue if it even is this go round.

You my friend are a freak of nature when it comes to picking things up quickly and I am very excited to see your grafts in the coming weeks. I suspect at worst I will see some lifting of the vascular bundle where it has gotten woody around the scions as the scions once they have grown attached to the vascular bundle will keep that portion of the vascular ring at the same height it was attached. The danger being that the vascular bundle that dries out around the scion may push up on the scion from the edges and slide the scion off or detach it. This is less of a problem however as you are using parafilm which can often suppress that altogether as it allows the humidity to stay very high over the healing tissue.

As concerns drying out, rooting, or callousing Pereskiopsis... I have found that when growing Pereskiopsis in a bog or under hydroponics after some months or sometimes weeks of growth like that my Pereskiopsis will shrivel up... the skin becomes wrinkled. Pulling back out of the water when this is first noticed and allowing them to dry soon rectifies this after which they can be placed back in the water without worries save for fungal infections which they will generally remain free of without treatment for 6-8 months. However, it may be better to err on the side of caution and allow your Pereskiopsis to go through a slight dry spell every few months.

Please keep me updated on your progress my friend as I suspect you will very soon outstrip my knowledge and expertise when it comes to grafting. I will do my best to ensure that happens.

With that being said, the very best teacher you can have is to simply watch what works and what doesn't as you go. I've tried many different ways of grafting and those that work best for me I've tweaked a bit over the years. Different size seedlings, different types of seedlings, etc. will often require slight modifications in technique to the point where I feel I am sometimes being superstitious rather than working from a point of science, but it works for me and the end result is what I am after most.

With that being said, someone noticed that the thinness of the parafilm covering I use changes the other day. I will share with you why that is if you haven't noticed. I will gently and slowly tug or pull my parafilm in two directions and then switch and gently and slowly tug in the other two directions. Then rotate again and do the same until my parafilm is see through when dealing with very small seedlings. This allows me to drape my seedlings with relative ease as the parafilm falls down over the seedling rather than having to be pulled down over the seedling when it is excessively small. I will then often pinch the top of the Pereskiopsis at the level of the scion and just below it to keep it from sliding off. If you can do this with a slight pinching motion the /\ formed will hold your scion in place. Then you can snug it down by gently twisting the parafilm beneath it.

Larger seedlings can of course simply have a thin, but not as thin piece of parafilm stretched down over top of them. I have smashed or damaged seedlings by applying too much pressure with too thick of a parafilm.

By not stretching parafilm thin enough, small seedling can indeed be damaged by the pressure.

While I often talk about how you can water grafts done this way both before, during, and after the grafting procedure. I should also warn you that if your technique is off and your parafilm is not holding your seedlings down snugly you can still lose grafts from watering. A loosely wrapped parafilm graft simply is not holding down your scion. It is however still providing humidity which is still a plus.

Okay, sorry for the long rambling on your page.

You rock my friend!

Let the grafting games continue!

 

[pete666]

Wakinyan, a lot of valuable info, as usual. Thank you for that.
I made 40 grafts today and I just realized my problem was slanting cut and too high scion. Both likely led to possibility of leaning of the scion when parafilm was applied.
I was still trying to have the cut horizontal, but it was still not as wished. Then I just tilted the razor to compensate this error and it worked. I don't understan why I have to cut in an angle and I get perfect cut, but this is how it is. Those 2 week old seedlings are quite small, so maybe eyes don't see it properly or brain is not able to process what eyes see.
The size of the scion seems to be crucial too, it seems the bigger the scion is, the more likely it can be turned over by the pressure of the parafilm.
I have tried to stretch the parafilm as much as possible, but still I don't have an idea how much pressure I have to (and can) use. It can happen that I am pulling too much and the scions are damaged.
Hard to say how serious those mistakes were, we will se in few days.
And I know the pereskiopsis is not perfect. Next time I will follow your advices, but now I would have to wait for the offshoots and I just want to graft We will see how it works with this woody stem. I think the best pereskiopsis would be grown under sun, with a lot of leaves, maybe fed by low nitrogen fertilizer, which could help to limit height. With enough leaves the rootstock can be small so there will be more space in the box. Luckily I am planning to start with indoor growing after summer next year, so pereskiopsis can be ideally grown in the summer and can go directly under the scions in September.

 

[Wakinyan]

The size of the seedling is indeed crucial with this method of grafting with parafilm. :thumb_up:

Short and fat is better than tall and thin when grafting with parafilm as it requires less skill.

This is another reason why I like to germinate my Trichocereus in full sun. I get nice bright red to dark purple babies that are very short and fat. Perfect for grafting.

However, I am also a slave to the elements.

If the sun is hidden by clouds for a few days then my seedlings will be brighter green and taller than I would like.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I rectify the problem of too tall and thin scions by simply cutting them shorter.

The only danger of too short of a scion... they may dry out. Again, a problem that is largely rectified by the parafilm as the parafilm keeps the humidity levels very high over the seedling.

 

[pete666]

Wakinyan, back to the problem of woody pereskiopsis and lifting vascular bundle...can I leave the parafilm there to provide high humidity for as long as possible or is it necessary to remove it once the graft has taken? I can see the difference between cut covered with parafilm and cut without it. The one with cover is keeping the surface nicely flat and I suspect the longer it will be kept like that, the better for the scion. What do you think?

 

[Wakinyan]

Wakinyan, back to the problem of woody pereskiopsis and lifting vascular bundle...can I leave the parafilm there to provide high humidity for as long as possible or is it necessary to remove it once the graft has taken? I can see the difference between cut covered with parafilm and cut without it. The one with cover is keeping the surface nicely flat and I suspect the longer it will be kept like that, the better for the scion. What do you think?

You are 100% spot on as usual Pete666.

Leave the parafilm in place until you feel it absolutely has to come off for cosmetic reasons.

I sometimes leave the parafilm on for an entire year.

With that being said, parafilm does look unsightly after 1 year of being exposed to the elements.

Chances are, if you have an extremely woody specimen once the seedling grows through the parafilm the humidity will be lessened enough to cause the vascular bundle to lift anywhere the seedling is not in contact with it. Sometimes this can be extremely detrimental to a seedling that had otherwise taken and sometimes not. It all depends on exactly how woody the stock is and how fast the seedling/graft is growing.

The only fix I have for that is to use a humidity chamber such as a plastic bag pulled over your seedlings and then closed shut.

 

[pete666]

Maybe I could try putting another layer of parafilm over penetrated first one to increase odds humidity will stay high.

Anyway, today grafted another 20 grafts. One growbox section is done, another 5 are waiting...

Look at some of friday grafts. They doesn't seem like they will take :/ The seedlings almost disappeared. So it will be re-grafted.

I have tried to stretch the parafilm as much as possible today (as advised) and used less power when applying it. I feel it should be better, but only time shows if it is enough.

 

[CatPharm]

Pete, not much to add along the lines of grafting. Just wanted to say i love ur setup, very nice:thumb_up:

 

[pete666]

Pete, not much to add along the lines of grafting. Just wanted to say i love ur setup, very nice:thumb_up:

Thanks CatPharm, I will add some more pictures and technical data in next weeks/months, so stay tuned

 

[Spiralout]

Great work.

What kind of lights do you have?

:thumb_up:

 

[pete666]

Great work.

What kind of lights do you have?

:thumb_up:

Thanks.

Fluorescent lights - T5, about 500W/m2

 

[Spiralout]

Hmmmm ok..

So that's one of those 8 tube setups?

 

[pete666]

Hmmmm ok..

So that's one of those 8 tube setups?

I am not sure I understand your question. There are 6 sections - 3 levels, two sections on each level. Each section has 0,44m2.
Two sections on each level share 3x80w T5 and each section has 4x24w T5 in addition. So in fact each section has 7 tubes. Each section has 17300 lumens in total.

You can see two those sections on two levels pictured above

 

[pete666]

Wakinyan, how can I recognize the graft has taken? How long does it take for 2 week old seedlings to show some sign of growth?
I was reading the scion should start to grow within one week, but not many people are grafting so small seedlings, so it may be different here.

 

[Wakinyan]

Wakinyan, how can I recognize the graft has taken? How long does it take for 2 week old seedlings to show some sign of growth?
I was reading the scion should start to grow within one week, but not many people are grafting so small seedlings, so it may be different here.

How fast the scion grows depends on a few different factors.

1 How tall and how many leaves does your Pereskiopsis have.

The taller the stock and the more leaves you have the faster the growth.

2 Is your Pereskiopsis actively growing or was it actively growing when you put your scion in place.

You won't see much growth until active growing resumes. Any growth seen in side branches should be pinched off as that will rob energy from the scion.

3. Have you watered since you grafted?
If not, you may want to water.

4. Bottom heat generally promotes faster rooting and thus more water uptake and faster growth.

Those are the basics. However, seedling growth is indeed variable when grafted. This is another reason I have a graft thread where I show the progression from day 1 of grafting onwards.

I am currently working on the second set of grafted seedlings to document in that thread as we speak. I encourage others to post their grafts noting what day it is of the graft as well as follow up pictures as it really is nice to see how much progression one might expect in a short period of time. Progression thread

With that being said, as long as your scion has life do not give up hope. I have one seedling graft where a caterpillar ate everything of importance that I could tell. I left it alone. Now today, I see an areole fragment must have been left as new growth has resumed!