Question about filtering rue

[q21q21]

I've been working on a detailed guide on the filtering step of boiled powdered rue after finishing a 350g batch and finding the amazing Tao of Rue guide somewhat vague on the logistics of the most difficult time-consuming step.

I believe I am quite clear on everything except one:

What makes putting the brew through a coffee filter needed rather than something a little less restrictive like a relatively-tight cotton ball or a tissue? Because there are so many additional purification steps like basing and at minimum 2 Manskes, wouldn't a quicker mostly-good filtration before basing be suitable? After that wouldn't a coffee filter filtration done after the hot vinegar is added to the precipitated alkaloids suffice?

I have near-zero chemistry knowledge, so maybe I'm totally missing something, but I found that after putting it through a tissue (which is is very quick) there was no sticky gunk left at all and the coffee filter step took nearly as long as the 3 previous filtration mediums. I would guess that coffee filters are not getting all the impurities anyway, so wouldn't stopping a little short of them still be okay?

Note: I am aware that some have had success boiling whole seeds. I did once, but then I had a big batch fail and got discourage from trying whole seeds again and went back to the reliable powdered rue method.

 

[blig-blug]

What makes putting the brew through a coffee filter needed rather than something a little less restrictive like a relatively-tight cotton ball or a tissue? Because there are so many additional purification steps like basing and at minimum 2 Manskes, wouldn't a quicker mostly-good filtration before basing be suitable? After that wouldn't a coffee filter filtration done after the hot vinegar is added to the precipitated alkaloids suffice?

I have never tried using ground seeds, so maybe doing what you suggest doesn't work with them. But in principle I agree, I think using a coffee filter is overkill and it will probably be cleaned later, particularly if using large volumes of liquid. Maybe you could experiment doing that.

Note: I am aware that some have had success boiling whole seeds. I did once, but then I had a big batch fail and got discourage from trying whole seeds again and went back to the reliable powdered rue method.

Most people seem to be using whole seeds, me included. It's kind of a hassle because it needs longer times, more liquid, and a reduction. But compared to ground seeds, I think it probably pays off. If it failed, it's likely to be due to not enough time boiling, not enough boils, or not squeezing the seeds hard enough after the last boil.

 

[Nydex]

While I can't necessarily help with the technical details here, I just wanna say it's good to have you back

 

[Sakkadelic]

Yes, save the coffee filters till the last steps when the solution is already clean. A cotton cloth works well to remove the seed ground from the initial tea (don't forget to squeeeeze). The majority of the cleaning is done with water washes after basification and settling of impurities during acid phases.

I've had surprisingly clean results from the get go with ground rue when trying CWE. So it seems to me that boiling brings along a lot of the troublesome impurities, perhaps excessive long boils are not needed with ground rue.

 

[ShadedSelf]

Boil -> Base -> Decant till neutral -> Acid -> Filter -> Base

That works for me, no reduction, vacuum filtering makes the process a lot easier. I use whole seeds + acid boil.

 

[blig-blug]

no reduction

The reason I reduce is not because it's good in itself (it's not), but because I combine several different boils, and don't have 15L+ vessels to extract if I don't reduce.

What yields do you get from a single boil of (I assume) not that large of a volume? Maybe I'm using more volume than necessary for the boils.

 

[Sakkadelic]

The reason I reduce is not because it's good in itself (it's not), but because I combine several different boils, and don't have 15L+ vessels to extract if I don't reduce.

Basing and decanting even if seperately I believe would be a more efficient way of reducing the volume. It might be hard to get the freebase to settle and be easily visible if the solution is too dilute.

How come you have such large volumes of water? For a 50g rue extraction, it doesn't go above 2L for me.

 

[blig-blug]

How come you have such large volumes of water? For a 50g rue extraction, it doesn't go above 2L for me.

I usually do 3 boils at 5L. I'll try next time with less. If I can do it with less, all the better!

 

[Sakkadelic]

I usually do 3 boils at 5L. I'll try next time with less. If I can do it with less, all the better!

Yeah I feel that's excessive, for example orion uses 1.2 L for the first boil which gets reduced to just covering the seeds and then only enough water to cover seeds for subsequent short boils. And I also use just enough water to cover the seeds and account for evaporation. I think your process would still work well with 1L per boil as harmala salts are quite soluble in water.

 

[ShadedSelf]

What yields do you get from a single boil of (I assume) not that large of a volume? Maybe I'm using more volume than necessary for the boils.

Cant say the exact number, I do multiple mini-extractions in parallel and keep topping off the boiling water until no harmalas comes out at the first basing step, then add everything together for filtering.
But yeah, first extraction is two or three 1L beakers, from there you start getting a lot less but still meaningful amounts IIRC, its been a while though.

 

[doubledog]

There is no reason for fine filtering rue brew.
Just separate solids with cloth filter, then let settle fine particles at the bottom of the container, decant liquid and add base.
Use coffee (or any paper) filters only when you reacidify it again after first basing.

 

[q21q21]

Thanks for the info, I should definitely have several grams of harmine, but I'm not totally confident in getting so much THH after all the purification steps so I might have to try it again with that advice in mind.

Apart from the filtering steps, which I'm very clear on, I'm not totally sure on the logistics of decanting a precipitate though. I found that both when fully basifying with sodium carbonate and when catching just the harmine at a PH of 8.5 the solids are so fine that anywhere from 50-60% of the top is all I could pour out before I was losing product. This then leaves fine filter-clogging precipitates all throughout only half or slightly half of the original liquid. Without reduction (which is how mine was), that is a ton of liquid to once again filter starting with loose cotton, then regular cotton, then tight cotton/tissue, then coffee filter to capture everything. I just wonder every time I do it if there is a better way.

The tao of rue suggests adding vinegar, but 5% vinegar isn't that strong especially if a lot of sodium carbonate or lye was used and it increases the volume of the batch significantly. Would adding a saturated citric acid solution work instead after the decanting? Would an initially manske work better because the crystals are bigger and easier to decant?

Everything I do after the filtering "works" but just seems less than ideal.

 

[Sakkadelic]

How long are you letting it settle?
Giving it a good stir after it precipitates helps break it down into smaller pieces and to settle better. Then tapping or vibrating it once it settles helps pack it down further.
In the case of using sodium carbonate, CO2 is produced and tiny bubbles attach to the freebase particles making them more floaty, so stirring is even more important.

For decanting I do it very slowly and usually get more than 90% of the water out. Some minor amounts of freebase start coming along with the water at the end but I distinguish between these minor amounts and the main freebase mud, only when that mud is nearing the edge I stop pouring. Pouring should be done slowly so that when the jar is tilted the freebase mud slides down without being greatly disturbed before the water edge at the back of the jar touches it. Some people have great success with siphoning the water out, I haven't tried it.

I should definitely have several grams of harmine, but I'm not totally confident in getting so much THH after all the purification steps so I might have to try it again with that advice in mind.

There's mainly harmine and harmaline (DHH) in rue, only minor amounts of THH. And the proportion of harmine amd harmaline seem to vary a lot.

 

[q21q21]

Thanks for the info. To clarify, I'm going to convert the harmaline to THH with magnesium cause no zinc dust is available in the country I'm living in. I'll do it after doing 3 pH precipitations, 8.5, 9.1 and then fully base with sodium carbonate to get nearly pure harmaline.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Giving it a good stir after it precipitates helps break it down into smaller pieces and to settle better. Then tapping or vibrating it once it settles helps pack it down further.
In the case of using sodium carbonate, CO2 is produced and tiny bubbles attach to the freebase particles making them more floaty, so stirring is even more important.

Agree with all this. For the vibrating part, I put the bottle on a subwoofer and run a bass-heavy album, works pretty fine to help settle the harmalas at the bottom of the bottle.

 

[Quetzal7]

Thanks for the tips guys
I was still using coffee filter ; i use water bottles ; cut he head off so they become a funnel, and run 10 fiilters in parralel

I use around 3Liter of water / kg of seeds ;
I based each pull separate and on the 3rd there was still a dececnt amount of precipitate ;
But on the 4th, a floating, cloudy but very thin myst appeared and would never precipitate. the amount of precipitation was minimal ; i'm not sure what's going on ; i remember a post mentionning that this wasn't harmaline but some secondary compounds; but why would they show up on the 4th pull and not before?

As i have little interest in the concept of purity, i general just rince it 10 times with water and finish there. I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of the plant. If i want for pharma i do a Mansk. But i found plain rue tea much richer. So i know the extraction is missing on some stuff.