Question about modified root bark extraction..

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

Basically I'm wondering if there is any specific reason all the STB teks involve soaking the bark in actual water with the base (aside from the blatantly obvious raising of pH and basing the alkaloids) followed by NPS pulls (I understand the concept) or if it would be theoretically possible to take a finely powdered bark and mix it in a 2:1-3:1 bark:base mixture, add water to make a thick paste, let dry, do an acetone wash and FASA/base/dry/dissolve/filter/dry like in Phlux's Bufo tek?

I'd imagine it works as well with root bark as it does with tannin, saponin and fat filled beans unless I am missing something key here? Now again I'm talking about flour like consistency root powder and sodium carbonate for simplicity sake and so we can skip the first two questions everyone asks and since the third (solvent!) is above.

Thank you guys in advance, mods feel free to move this and anyone who has tried something similar or who has a good knowledge of bufo and the various XMT's found in acacia root barks, please chime in!

 

[ymer]

Please check out other teks on the wiki as well as the forum, there are Dry Teks such as what you are describing.

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

Could you provide me with the name of a specific one to look up? I haven't been able to find any that don't involve a water and napatha, d-limonene or that have steps that seem either lacking in explanation or with somewhat redundant steps.. Please don't take that as complaining, I'm still figuring the how's and why's of all this so it could be just as much my fault (and ignorance as much as I hate to say) that I'm failing to find my answers. This place is full of some damn good info without a lot of the snootiness I'm used to at bluelight.

Even aside from the teks if someone would like to go on a tangent or ramble on some about this subject I'd be glad to read any of it and sponge up what I can. By the way, thank you for your reply and letting me know that at least I am on to something that someone else is already on if that makes sense.

 

[alert]

Could you provide me with the name of a specific one to look up?

If you are interested in dryteks check out q21q21 tek #2. If you do a google search you'll be able to find a link to the tek with pictures of each step. It isn't exactly like what you are describing as it does use naphtha rather than acetone. It also uses lime rather than sodium carbonate. If nothing else it may give you some more ideas.

Here is a link to the wiki but there are other threads out there that go into more depth and detail

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

Yeah, I just revisited the dry teks and they are basically everything I'm trying to avoid.. Either a hassle to obtain the *right* ingredients or just seemingly over complicated and/or redundant.

Can anyone explain to me why such a tek as I proposed WOULD NOT work? I don't see why I need vinegar, limonene or some other nasty shit like xylene, napatha, DCM or heptane (or is it hexane? I forget) and all this fuss about defatting. Like I said before, it works for tannin, fat and saponin filled beans and bufo, WHY wouldn't it work just as well for plain ol' DMT in a fibrous, tannin filled piece of bark?

It's not that I haven't looked or am not trying to hard to find this info, but everyone just seems to be stuck using the same solvents and teks but since I am too late to the party I just catch punch line and not the information to put it into context so it makes sense.

Anyone care to help me with the why's since all I'm finding are steps?

 

[alert]

Yeah, I just revisited the dry teks and they are basically everything I'm trying to avoid.. Either a hassle to obtain the *right* ingredients or just seemingly over complicated and/or redundant.

I understand that depending on where you live procuring the right materials may be difficult, but honestly that tek, and most other teks you will find here, are far from complicated and don't have any redundant steps.

Can anyone explain to me why such a tek as I proposed WOULD NOT work?

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. I'm not sure what the end product would look like but it could always be cleaned up via other methods if need be. Why not try it out and post your results?

everyone just seems to be stuck using the same solvents and teks

People generally like to use proven methods and there is nothing dangerous about using these solvents assuming you are smart about it (evaps clean, no open flames, ventilated area, etc). If you are worried about leftover solvent in your end product you can simply redissolve your spice in ethanol and allow anything that may be stuck in the crystalline structure to evaporate.

Anyone care to help me with the why's since all I'm finding are steps?

What are the exact questions you are looking for a "why" to?

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

Alert: Starting with number one, I don't really have an issue with finding those solvents or necessary ingredients, I just prefer to avoid napatha, xylene, lemonine(sp?) and lye whenever possible, especially if I can use a familiar solvent that is much easier to handle and safer to work with. As far as the redundancies, I could be missing the purpose of those steps and merely think that they, hence why I'd like to know why certain steps are important and their purpose.

As for the second part: I'm just trying to do a crude extract that I can clean up in a manner similar to Phlux or RebBarons tek. First run purity isn't as important to me as having a smaller amount of material with most/all of the alkaloids that I can work with from there. If you think it's a viable method then I'll have my friend SWIM give it a run and I'll report the findings.

As far as the solvents go, I recognize that most people prefer to stick to what works and what they know, but I just feel that if there is an easier way to pull it off without using napatha, lye, xylene and a half gallon pickle jar then we should be exploring it a little more. I'm not really worried about leftover solvent either, proper application of heat and agitation to a to a drying mixture usually does it, and if that doesn't work dissolving in a more volatile solvent and evaporating tends to do the trick for more stubborn chemicals.

And as for the 'why's': I'm just curious why most every tek involves soaking and/or boiling in lye water and napatha (special purpose? Just to facilitate the breakdown of material? Etc?) and why the so called 'dry teks' seem to be anything but and even more complicated to perform than the ol' A/B that they are supposed to be better than. Again, I'm just interested in the WHY of each step rather than just having a list to follow.

I appreciate your response Alert, you've been very helpful and actually seem to get what I'm driving at here.

 

[ymer]

Can anyone explain to me why such a tek as I proposed WOULD NOT work? I don't see why I need vinegar, limonene or some other nasty shit like xylene, napatha, DCM or heptane (or is it hexane? I forget) and all this fuss about defatting. Like I said before, it works for tannin, fat and saponin filled beans and bufo, WHY wouldn't it work just as well for plain ol' DMT in a fibrous, tannin filled piece of bark?

Only problems that I see with your idea is that the dry mixture would soak in a lot of your acetone and with the acetone having direct contact with the bark I'm pretty sure that it would pull a lot more than just the DMT including all the tannins.

But maybe you should try it and let us know how it goes :thumb_up:

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

That's about the only issue I could think of but with the amount of crap in cebil seeds (tannins, saponins, fats and oils) and how easy that went for my friend SWIM I don't see it being much of an issue, especially since he will be following almost an exact copy of Phlux's Bufo tek and using FASA dropwise over a few hours to help keep his fumarates nice and white.

He also figures that 3-5 acetone pulls should pull out all of the goodies as long as he thoroughly mixes and agitates the sludge between pulls to prevent the root bark from acting like an acetone/alkaloid sponge and to prevent the formation of those colloidal bubbles like you get when mixing kratom powder into a tea or drink.

Anybody have any suggestions where to start for a bark:carbonate ratio or any other thoughts/contributions/criticisms to keep in mind? Also, how important is the pH for this reaction? Do I need to reach pH or will just over saturating the bark with excess carbonate, wetting, mixing and drying work like with yopo (bufo) snuff? My friend doesn't have much experience working with DMT and doesn't want to destroy a fragile molecule or completely fail.

Thanks again for the helpful discussion guys! I'm glad I have some intelligent people gracious enough to help me out rather than just belittle me or call me an idiot for not having a PhD like another forum I occasionally drop in on.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

a non polar solvent (aromatic hydrocarbons are easily accessible) would be preferable to a polar protic solvent (acetone/alcohols).

if you really read the limonene/vegetable teks, and fully comprehend them, they are neither missing steps, nor redundant.

the information you need is all over the forum.

you really shouldn't experiment unless you fully understand the processes involved.

if you leave the basified sludge mixture hydrated (But not "wet") the water will help keep the solvent seperate from the bark, making it easier to prevent base contam, and reducing (But not eliminating - dreamer did work re: solvent loss and hippie salad oil tek is the result).

as for the ratio of bark:carbonate anywhere from 4:3 to 1:1 is common for dry teks (Especially those who had an acid step)

 

[The Traveler]

Here is some help for looking where the teks are :

1) Go to the Wiki by clicking on that nice WIKI link at the top of each forum page;

2) On that page, click the Extraction teks link;

3) In the table of contents click on the Dry Tek link (1.4);


Also remember that even if you think that the teks are too complicated for you or need too many ingredients, it is a good start to learn what is happening at each step with the extraction.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

Motherfucking phone deleted everything I spent an hour fucking writing so..

I understand basic chemistry and HOW these extractions work, but I just want more of an explanation as to why you people use non-polar solvent A over B or why people choose one hydroxide over another. Does one cause a special reaction or leave the DMT with significantly different properties (citrates vs. fumarates for example)? Make no mistake, I understand the concepts and procedures involved. I'm just trying to absorb as much as I can here since chemistry is one thing on paper and another in practice and it never hurts to consider everything.

Thank you for the idea on a ratio and as far as the bark goes I'm already aware of, it's a big consideration if you are determined to make liquid gold from iso and good herb .. My friend plans to toast lightly between his ovens warming setting and 225f to remove any excess moisture and he is also going to be vigorously mixing the sludge with the new solvent between pulls. He is aware that he needs to do some research into the vape point of DMTs various forms.

Keep in mind this is just going to be a concept run with about 25g ACRB and he's not expecting to end up with anything more than crude fumarates suspended in acetone that need to be filtered out and later cleaned.

Could you elaborate on why aromatic hydrocarbons are a better choice than acetone? Is it because they are immiscible in water? Are they more selective of the active alkaloids? Because you can freeze precipitate? Because they are less aggressive than acetone? BTW, these are the why's that I'm talking about!

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

One thing I forgot to ask earlier.. Would a thorough mixing of the 4:3 bark:base until it is evenly mixed and distributed help to make sure the solvent achieves maximum penetration of and contact with the bark? I figure ot should help prevent clumping and the formation of colloidal bubbles that extremely fine powders have a tendency to form in a liquid solution.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

if you don't understand solvent choice, then you really must not fully understand it as well as you claim.

aromatic solvents are non-polar, which is precisely what you want your solvent to be when dissolving non-polar alkaloids (read: DMT).

they cannot be freeze precipitated (that would be aliphatic hydrocarbons, typically naphtha), but they can be evaporated or salted.

as for the base choice, it really doesn't matter you just need to hit the pKa to convert the DMT in the bark to freebase (thus making it non-polar, hence the non-polar solvent.

I just prefer to avoid napatha, xylene, lemonine(sp?) and lye whenever possible, especially if I can use a familiar solvent that is much easier to handle and safer to work with.

vegetable oil can be used as an aromatic.

also i am fairly sure limonene is safer to work with than acetone, but i could be mistaken on that.

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

I understand the polar/non polar solvent, I mean why napatha instead of hexane (or heptane, always forget) for example, and if it is converted in to the freebase form I'd assume it's soluble in acetone, correct?

EDIT: Just re-read your post and saw the part about the freebase DMT being non-polar and needing an NPS. I've also found a bunch of posts on here and other forums saying DMT is soluble in acetone, so is it just that an NPS would be preferable (if so, for what reason?) to acetone or is what I am reading incorrect?

I understand the basic properties of the solvents themselves but like I said, I do not have very much experience with DMT itself and am trying to figure out what I'm missing here. I'm familiar with bufo and the extraction process for that and some other alkaloids but again, I do not have an extensive knowledge of chemistry, just a basic grasp.

I'm unsure about lemonine and it's safety as well, but I just prefer acetone for it's cost, easy of obtaining and because it generally strips everything I've needed out. It also evaporates quickly and completely. Just my personal preference.

Thank you for explaining that to me though, I learned something new and that's all I'm trying to do.

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

So my friend did a first run on the material with very promising results, but now is doing a facepalm for forgetting that the citrate salt is soluble in acetone as well. Aside from fumaric acid is there another hydrophobic salt that doesn't dissolve in acetone or is he going to be left holding the bucket until some becomes available? If he is stuck, does he have to worry about it degrading in solution?

As far as the extraction itself, he said that a simple mix of 8g bark and 6g sodium carbonate was reacted with a small amount of water, thoroughly mixed and allowed to air dry (almost like yopo it seemed to dry itself out) and then had the piss pounded out of it until it was a super fine blood red powder. Said powder was then completely covered with acetone and allowed to settle before being poured off until it came out (relatively) clear. The liquid was reportedly a neon orange/yellow color before the failed salting and I would assume still is. Was reported to have a strong natural/floral smell that was clearly detectable and distinguishable from the sweet stink of acetone, which has him very excited.

He believes that this seems to be a good way to as an extraction route, it has obviously pulled out a good amount of goodies while seemingly leaving the vast majority of tannins behind in the powder. He also asked me to note that it seemed to go just as easy with a bufo run but not nearly as dark in color or as horrid a stink.

Well that's all to report for now until he finds a suitable acid/salt that will precipitate out. Thoughts/opinions/questions all welcomed and encouraged.