Recrystallizing losing any magic?

[Swarupa]

If you recrystallized once or a thousand times, would there be a loss in quality of the DMT?

Subjective & objective reports/findings are both welcome

I was discussing this with a friend, who was convinced that DMT can lose its freshness over time, i took the stance that there is no 'freshness' factor when your dealing with an extract like DMT, DMT is DMT is DMT, there's not 'fresh' DMT. Apart from if you take oxidation into account, but then you can re-X and have it back to nnDMT again, without losing any 'freshness' at all as DMT is not plant matter, right?

 

[justine]

Right, apart from oxidation there is no 'freshness' factor, subjective reports state that months-old dmt is just as potent (as long as it's kept in a sealed vessel in the dark).

Multiple re-x should lead to a translucent product which may rival pharm-grade dmt.

 

[Swarupa]

Multiple re-x should lead to a translucent product which may rival pharm-grade dmt.

This makes my mouth water

 

[endlessness]

Yes, dmt is dmt is dmt.

I think a lot of people are being influenced by self suggestion regarding differences in dmt kinds (old, new, jungle, red, yellow, whatever). For all of those that keep perpetuating rumours regarding dmt differences, I really ask them to please make blind tests and let us know if they can really tell the difference.

Im also curious how much dmt actually oxidizes. DMT n-oxide is an oil, and I've seen years-old dmt that was just kept in a drawer with no extra protection at all. It did get darker but still very solid (waxy), and it was perfectly active, I personally couldnt tell the difference in the effects of that one and freshly extracted white dmt. Its possible that only a small amount of the dmt that is exposed to air is actually oxidized, or that its impurities on the surface that are mostly oxidizing, or both, but certainly it cant have all or most oxidized otherwise it would have been an oil and not a solid.

 

[Swarupa]

I noticed some very powdery DMT i had in a vial in a dark/cool place started to clump together after a few weeks, it took a lot of tapping/shaking to get the powder to break up.

Would storing it in the freezer be a good idea?

 

[endlessness]

it wont hurt

 

[Shaolin]

Yes, dmt is dmt is dmt.

I think a lot of people are being influenced by self suggestion regarding differences in dmt kinds (old, new, jungle, red, yellow, whatever). For all of those that keep perpetuating rumours regarding dmt differences, I really ask them to please make blind tests and let us know if they can really tell the difference.

Bioassays with such strong psychadelics are more or less worthless when used for determining a mixture of substances.

The way I see it, we have extracts (from MHRB or any other DMT containing plant). In these extracts there is DMT but not the whole extract is DMT. I got very confused a few days back thinking about 65% (random number) pure DMT. I came to a conclusion that such thing does not exist. You can have an extract in which you have (by weight) 65% of DMT but that DMT is "pure" DMT, it's the extract that's a mixture of "various".

I battle daily with this question, so let's make it worth.

End, what is your take on mimosa content ? Do you believe that there are more alkaloids present than just N,N-DMT and do you think that wide spectrum (DCM, limonene, xylene) solvents extract them ? Any thoughts on activity ?

 

[endlessness]

Bioassays with such strong psychadelics are more or less worthless when used for determining a mixture of substances.

Why is it worthless? It would be easy enough and very valid to show if people can tell the difference or not.

Imagine this: A particular batch of herbs is infused with 'jungle' dmt (or yellow or old or whatever). Another batch is infused with white dmt. The batches are coded in a way that the person ingesting doesnt know which is which. The person smokes it a few times, lets say, 5 or 10. Ideally the same is done for the same batch and a few different people. Each time the person has to say which batch does he think it is. Later results are compared. This will say pretty clearly if the person can see the difference between both batches.

Of course it doesnt say what is the alkaloid content, but it at least shows if people can tell the difference or not (and therefore if it makes a difference to keep spreading all these rumours that 'jimjam/jungle/whatever' is any different than dmt.

So far, only one person has stepped up to make a blind test with white vs yellow dmt and he (ice house) could not tell the difference. I know I cant because even in the same batch of dmt I can have completely different experiences. So for those that keep thinking they cant, please do this test and prove me wrong (or stop spreading these unfounded ideas).

End, what is your take on mimosa content ? Do you believe that there are more alkaloids present than just N,N-DMT and do you think that wide spectrum (DCM, limonene, xylene) solvents extract them ? Any thoughts on activity ?

There have been studies done, what I think doesnt matter much I guess, my opinion is just as valid as any (and I welcome others disagreeing with me with good arguments).

But fact is, Burnt showed demonstrated with analytical equipment that mimosa contains as a major component only dmt, plus some fatty acids, and a very small amount of 2-MTHBC. I could not find any info anywhere regarding 2-MTHBC being psychoactive. Pharmacology of multiple substances taken together can be very complex, there is a chance it does change the effect of dmt, sort of like CBD can alter the effects of THC, but it might also not affect at all, plus it is present in very small amounts (less than 3%). Due to the extreme nature of the DMT experience, I really really think that people could not tell the difference in a blind test, but only if more people tested we would really know

 

[Shaolin]

Why is it worthless? It would be easy enough and very valid to show if people can tell the difference or not.

Set/setting/intention are way more important in my opinion than if an extract is, for instance, 90% of N,N-DMT and 10% of plant oils and 70% of N,N-DMT and 30% of plant oils especially if it would be 50mg smoked in GVG (I presume you need more and that GVG is more efficient).

Imagine this: A particular batch of herbs is infused with 'jungle' dmt (or yellow or old or whatever). Another batch is infused with white dmt. The batches are coded in a way that the person ingesting doesnt know which is which. The person smokes it a few times, lets say, 5 or 10. Ideally the same is done for the same batch and a few different people. Each time the person has to say which batch does he think it is. Later results are compared. This will say pretty clearly if the person can see the difference between both batches.

Great experiment but I find Nick Sand (Full PDF - http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/sacred.pdf) very convincing in his argument that other things** matters more with psychadelics.

Of course it doesnt say what is the alkaloid content, but it at least shows if people can tell the difference or not (and therefore if it makes a difference to keep spreading all these rumours that 'jimjam/jungle/whatever' is any different than dmt.

Be exact. It CAN (and most probably is) be different but it provides the same EXPERIENCE.

So far, only one person has stepped up to make a blind test with white vs yellow dmt and he (ice house) could not tell the difference.

Trickster reported "I few times I got yields around 1.8%. The product looked clean and white but was noticeably weaker then usual." and "Then I pushed pH to 13.2 and got another 0.5% of the same fine powder. Judging by the results of bioassay these last two extractions yielded progressively weaker product." It's pH related but still.

But fact is, Burnt showed demonstrated with analytical equipment that mimosa contains as a major component only dmt, plus some fatty acids, and a very small amount of 2-MTHBC.

I really wish burnt would share the pH values for this extraction. Also he used toluene which might be less selective than for instance limonene or DCM.

 

[endlessness]

Great experiment but I find Nick Sand (Full PDF - http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/sacred.pdf) very convincing in his argument that other things** matters more with psychadelics.

I dont understand this point. Im not saying that other things dont matter or making a comparison of what matters more, im just saying that there's plenty of people ascribing an objetive difference in terms of pharmacology and effects to a specific color of mimosa extract and I find that idea unlikely for the reasons stated above, and ask those that think this is so to do a blind test which would compare this specific variables. All the other variables (such as intentions and what not) still exist of course, but thats not what we're talking about here, right?

Be exact. It CAN (and most probably is) be different but it provides the same EXPERIENCE.

Im sorry I dont understand this either.

Trickster reported "I few times I got yields around 1.8%. The product looked clean and white but was noticeably weaker then usual." and "Then I pushed pH to 13.2 and got another 0.5% of the same fine powder. Judging by the results of bioassay these last two extractions yielded progressively weaker product." It's pH related but still.

Bioassay is not the same as blind test.. I've never read trickster claiming anything about blind test so this would again fall into the 'self-suggestion' category. Plus claiming that there is a white powdery alkaloid in such high quantities in mimosa that is similar but less active than dmt sounds like quite an unfounded claim considering several mimosa analysis have been made and there isnt any other active alkaloid as such to account for these claims.

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so here I am waiting for something to show up

Trickster reported "I few times I got yields around 1.8%. The product looked clean and white but was noticeably weaker then usual." and "Then I pushed pH to 13.2 and got another 0.5% of the same fine powder. Judging by the results of bioassay these last two extractions yielded progressively weaker product." It's pH related but still.

I really wish burnt would share the pH values for this extraction. Also he used toluene which might be less selective than for instance limonene or DCM

He also made a methanol extraction which would be very much non-selective.

 

[endlessness]

as I said, redissolve and infuse some herbs with both, so you wont be able to see it anymore, put it in a container with a coded label in it. Then have a friend write down what the code represents or make two pair of stickers with two different colors, and on a piece of paper write down the two types. Stick one of each of the pairs on the name and one on the container, without looking at the color as you do this (cover with your finger or something). I dont know if I was able to explain myself but anyways im sure you can understand the idea of infusing herbs and not knowing which is which until after smoking.

 

[burnt]

endlessness wrote:

But fact is, Burnt showed demonstrated with analytical equipment that mimosa contains as a major component only dmt, plus some fatty acids, and a very small amount of 2-MTHBC.


I really wish burnt would share the pH values for this extraction. Also he used toluene which might be less selective than for instance limonene or DCM.

SWIM also did with ether and it was similar to toluene. But anyway the pH was 10-11.

 

[Shaolin]

2-Me-THBC you say ?

Our recent research has confirmed that DMT reacts with dichloromethane (DCM), either as a result of work-up or storage to give a quaternary N-chloromethyl ammonium salt 2a. Furthermore, this was observed to undergo rearrangement during analysis using gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) with products including 3-(2-chloroethyl)indole 3 and 2-methyltetrahydro-b-carboline 4 (2-Me-THBC).

Do you suspect that the results would be different with a higher pH ?