Red goo - potential misinformation and cleanup

[artificer]

I have experienced contaminants in 100% of my extractions and I wanted to share a relatively quick and easy way to clean up DMT in naphtha or heptane (or any other NPS I presume). If this has already been posted somewhere, please let me know and I'll be sure to give credit where due. But first, I want to talk about red goo, and the often stated "it's probably fine, it's still DMT, it's just oxidation (or "it's just oligomerization") or whatever.

While I do not argue that DMT can take different forms of white/yellow/red/crystal/oil etc and still be the same wonderful molecule, my experience with every single extract I've done has had red stuff that does not dissolve in NPS, and quite clearly behaves like water-soluble gunk that ends up going to the bottom of the NPS collection, via the method below. So, I submit that, I would personally never ever again try DMT that did not have this step performed to clean up - as NaOH is highly likely to be dissolved in this red stuff. I've tried out batches in the past that gave me ill effects, and then by cleaning this red stuff out, even if it was a small amount, it was experientially an immense improvement. for example, the 'dirty' stuff would typically make me feel cold

All of my successful extractions have been some form of A/B, involving vinegar or HCl for acid + distilled water, MHRB, NaOH, and sometimes NaCl, and then pulled with naphtha or heptane. For some of these extractions I went through great lengths to filter out all solids before basifying the solution, but recently I have omitted this step, as I don't see the benefit, because I still ended up with the water-based red stuff at the bottom that would need to be clean up. What I am going to describe may, in effect, yield the same results as other re-x teks, but my method is very simple: put the collected NPS pulls in a sealed glass container, put in freezer overnight. DMT will precipitate out, but at the bottom of the glass I always get a layer of the red stuff under the white DMT. Warm this back up so that DMT re-dissolves into the NPS, and I always have the water-based red crap stay at the bottom, and I pour off most of the clean NPS into a new clean jar, and use a pipette to get the last of it (graduated cylinder helps if you want to get the very last bit of the clean NPS while leaving the red stuff behind).

Sorry, I did not take pictures of the red stuff, but below are pics of the DMT crystals after doing this step.

For those of you that I expect will say you don't experience the red stuff that I'm talking about... I wish I understood how I get it 100% of the time via different extraction methods. And to be clear, the water-based red stuff that I'm talking about does not settle at the bottom, even after days of sitting, without the freeze and warm cycle I described above.

Hope this is more helpful than not...

 

[Sakkadelic]

Hi artificer,

What you're describing is base soup and fine particles coming along with your pulls, sometimes they are immediately visible as they settle and combine at the bottom and other times they take a while to settle after letting the NPS rest. It's definitely something that should be removed and is different from red dmt.
How are you performing your pulls? Are you letting the NPS rest even after it separates from the base soup? Are you being careful not to pull anything along the NPS while getting the last bit of it?

letting the NPS rest with or without freezing, and decanting it leaving behind the contaminants as you are doing is a good way to clean the dmt.

The Base in Your Product

You may indeed have NaOH in your final product! When mixing the “soup” (more properly called the aqueous solution/phase) and the nonpolar solvent, (called ‘organic solvent/phase’), inevitably some of the highly basic aqueous solution will suspend itself in the organic phase, and will remain even...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Check out this thread where another method of pulling into slightly basic water first is described.

 

[artificer]

Hi artificer,

What you're describing is base soup and fine particles coming along with your pulls, sometimes they are immediately visible as they settle and combine at the bottom and other times they take a while to settle after letting the NPS rest. It's definitely something that should be removed and is different from red dmt.
How are you performing your pulls? Are you letting the NPS rest even after it separates from the base soup? Are you being careful not to pull anything along the NPS while getting the last bit of it?

letting the NPS rest with or without freezing, and decanting it leaving behind the contaminants as you are doing is a good way to clean the dmt.

The Base in Your Product

You may indeed have NaOH in your final product! When mixing the “soup” (more properly called the aqueous solution/phase) and the nonpolar solvent, (called ‘organic solvent/phase’), inevitably some of the highly basic aqueous solution will suspend itself in the organic phase, and will remain even...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Check out this thread where another method of pulling into slightly basic water first is described.

oOoooo I like that thread you linked. Interesting.

Yes, it is the base soup that I'm describing - thing is, I've tried letting the naphtha sit for days and little to nothing falls to bottom. It's only after the freeze and warming cycle that it clearly drops significant increase of base soup to bottom, and end results are for me about the same as getting dry product then going through re-x process, except without the extra steps to get dry product in between.

I recently got to see someone else's product that they extracted (first time I saw DMT that wasn't from myself), and it, too had base soup mixed in the final result - not a ton, but enough that they were surprised how crystally my product was. My point with this thread is to push back on the 'red is probably fine' bandwagon. Considering the number of times I've done it and now seeing same thing in someone else's end product, I wanted to at least voice my concern... This is, of course, not an absolute 'red is always bad' stance, but I would argue that it's wishfulness and cockiness not to use some method to check for and/or clean out base soup in the end (I don't know how it gets simpler than freeze overnight and warm next morning), or do something like the link you posted Sakkadelic, or the more lengthy recrystallization.

 

[blig-blug]

Have you tried extracting with heptane only? If so, did you get red stuff with it as well?
With only heptane I've only gotten white or very light yellow. The yellow tends to appear when I heat it more and leave it for longer during the pulls.

About feeling cold, I'm not sure that's related to any impurities. I've felt cold with (oral) white DMT, and many people report the same. It is interesting that you don't get that side effect from white DMT.

 

[Sakkadelic]

oOoooo I like that thread you linked. Interesting.

Yes, it is the base soup that I'm describing - thing is, I've tried letting the naphtha sit for days and little to nothing falls to bottom. It's only after the freeze and warming cycle that it clearly drops significant increase of base soup to bottom, and end results are for me about the same as getting dry product then going through re-x process, except without the extra steps to get dry product in between.

I recently got to see someone else's product that they extracted (first time I saw DMT that wasn't from myself), and it, too had base soup mixed in the final result - not a ton, but enough that they were surprised how crystally my product was. My point with this thread is to push back on the 'red is probably fine' bandwagon. Considering the number of times I've done it and now seeing same thing in someone else's end product, I wanted to at least voice my concern... This is, of course, not an absolute 'red is always bad' stance, but I would argue that it's wishfulness and cockiness not to use some method to check for and/or clean out base soup in the end (I don't know how it gets simpler than freeze overnight and warm next morning), or do something like the link you posted Sakkadelic, or the more lengthy recrystallization.

Maybe for some reason (ultra fine particles? NPS type?) in your case the suspended base soup is stubborn and does not settle on its own.

I've only had it once where I pulled hastely and while there was no visible stuff at the bottom of the precipitation dish, after freezing I got white crystals with a brownish layer below them.

 

[Transform]

Back in the day, the red goo was the result of doing a final pull using xylene. I'm also wondering - how red is "red"? I've only ever personally seen orange goo from naphtha, and that was what I'm now pretty certain was polymer. It would dissolve into boiling naphtha or heptane and drop back out as dark orange brown goo on cooling a little. It was such a dark orange that I could envisage some people choosing to call it red, even though I'd vehemently disagree with them!

The curious behaviour of the water soluble goo described here does indeed appear to suggest there's something up with your NPS - or were you using exceedingly finely powdered bark?

 

[doubledog]

Did you check water solubility of the red material by redissolving it in small amount of water? Did you check pH of it?

 

[artificer]

Have you tried extracting with heptane only? If so, did you get red stuff with it as well?
With only heptane I've only gotten white or very light yellow. The yellow tends to appear when I heat it more and leave it for longer during the pulls.

About feeling cold, I'm not sure that's related to any impurities. I've felt cold with (oral) white DMT, and many people report the same. It is interesting that you don't get that side effect from white DMT.

Yes I have used Tedia "n-Heptane 99%". I extracted with this couple years back, and did not really notice any difference in cleanliness of my product until doing Re-X.

Ah yes the feeling cold bit, I meant to elaborate more, there's more to it, like feeling the DMT coming on and then feeling general sense of malaise, shivers, muscles contracting excessively to stay warm, and then the spirit goodness subsides and would take some time (hour-ish) to feel ok again. After re-X the difference in experience (changa, GVG, vape) was amazing, although yeah I can still feel temperature shift, just not as much, and without the malaise.

Maybe for some reason (ultra fine particles? NPS type?) in your case the suspended base soup is stubborn and does not settle on its own.

The MHRB I've used has always had at least some amount of ultra fine particles. I wonder, too, if it's more likely to get base soup suspended in NPS with higher temp process, as it's not uncommon for my soup/NPS to be around 80-90°C at some point.

I'm also wondering - how red is "red"? I've only ever personally seen orange goo from naphtha, and that was what I'm now pretty certain was polymer. It would dissolve into boiling naphtha or heptane and drop back out as dark orange brown goo on cooling a little. It was such a dark orange that I could envisage some people choosing to call it red, even though I'd vehemently disagree with them!

I love that you'd vehemently disagree with them. Or maybe sad if they were color blind. This was red - I suspect base soup in small enough quantity isn't so black and appears more red, especially when it's surrounded by yellow liquid and white crystals.

Did you check water solubility of the red material by redissolving it in small amount of water? Did you check pH of it?

The red material did not dissolve back into NPS when hot. There was some water already there (also dark red in color), but again this did not separate/drop out until freeze/warm cycle. I did not check pH of it.

Again, my mission with this post is a general voice of concern and caution, especially for someone new to extraction. There are likely multiple ways I could improve my extraction methods and I'm open to them, but I'm trying to communicate that there is a reason we have multiple threads about Re-X, and I submit that this freeze/warm cycle hurts nothing, takes next to zero additional labor, and likely accomplishes cleanup that is on-par with what Re-X process would do.

I'd love some feedback from more people that might try this on their next extraction and report whether or not they get any base soup after freezing and warming... although my stance I think would stay the same on doing this cleanup step no matter what - I mean if nothing shows up, then great, smoalk with confidence

 

[Sakkadelic]

I'd love some feedback from more people that might try this on their next extraction and report whether or not they get any base soup after freezing and warming... although my stance I think would stay the same on doing this cleanup step no matter what - I mean if nothing shows up, then great, smoalk with confidence

Does the red stuff appear on the bottom right after freezing or only after rewarming? I assume that it does appear right after freezing (or after drying and scraping), in that case for most people getting white or yellow crystals with no visible red/brown/purple there is no need to rewarm and freeze again. What I am trying to say and I am not sure I relayed properly is that there is already feedback/data.

But yes you're right that people should be more cautious when getting dmt that is not white or yellow especially when following the standard methods using light NPS. And your method is simple and great, especially for people doing their first extractions and not wanting to risk extra steps and losing product.

 

[Transform]

feedback

• 80-90°C does seem unnecessarily hot for an extraction.
• A sodium carbonate wash (in an intermediate jug) on the naphtha between the pulling vessel and the precipitation container may help to remove the red stuff. It can even be kept as hot as the pulls.

 

[blig-blug]

I suspect base soup in small enough quantity isn't so black and appears more red

Yes, that's definitely the case. I often get a few drops when getting the NPS out of the vessel (I pour it in a separate glass for that reason) and a few drops do look "Mimosa red", so to speak.

 

[artificer]

Does the red stuff appear on the bottom right after freezing or only after rewarming? I assume that it does appear right after freezing (or after drying and scraping), in that case for most people getting white or yellow crystals with no visible red/brown/purple there is no need to rewarm and freeze again. What I am trying to say and I am not sure I relayed properly is that there is already feedback/data.

But yes you're right that people should be more cautious when getting dmt that is not white or yellow especially when following the standard methods using light NPS. And your method is simple and great, especially for people doing their first extractions and not wanting to risk extra steps and losing product.

Good point. Yes, the red stuff is noticeable as a thin layer below the whiter crystals right after freezing. If this layer is not visible after freeze, I agree there is no need to warm back up/freeze again.