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Rethinking DMT and the Pineal Gland

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burnt said:
Many people just want to associate dmt with the pineal gland because the pineal gland has all these absurd mystical notions attached to it.
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Hey Now,

The last thing I want to do is polarize myself from this type of over-simplified assessment (or maybe I really do?) but ALL of the major psychedelics: vine, cactus, magic mushroom, ergot... do indeed have the juice to activate the pineal gland or "Third Eye". As there is no scientific data supporting theories which imply that psilocybin, mescaline, LSD-25 and DMT may exist naturally within the human biochemistry, the point is quite moot. Still, DMT has an incredible ability to stimulate pineal gland activation and the myriad visions which occur during such a merging. Frankly, there is nothing at all "absurd" about perceiving a connection between DMT and the functions of the pineal gland. Whether or not there are actual DMT crystals existing within the pineal gland is yet to be conclusively affirmed or dis-proven. It doesn't really matter, yet, many of the mystically inclined characters who frequent this neighborhood have had transcendent experiences and that is nothing to be taken lightly. Am I to assume you have not had your Third Eye opened during a psychedelic journey or are you simply trying to demystify the process? From my admittedly limited perspective, DMT has more to do with activating the Crown region of the human brain and it's direct connection to the Grid. ancient Indian cosmology names this phenomenon, The Thousand Petalled Lotus. It is this phenomenon which unites the individual to the indivisible. It is my hope that your awareness broadens exponentially, as you progress towards the ONE.

Peace, love & Light
 
▲ Welcome to the DMT-Nexus » SCIENCE/PHILOSOPHY/SPIRITUALITY » Science* » Rethinking DMT and the Pineal Gland

*Scientific discussions. Only real science allowed!
 
Rising Spirit said:
Still, DMT has an incredible ability to stimulate pineal gland activation and the myriad visions which occur during such a merging. Frankly, there is nothing at all "absurd" about perceiving a connection between DMT and the functions of the pineal gland. Whether or not there are actual DMT crystals existing within the pineal gland is yet to be conclusively affirmed or dis-proven
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how do you know DMT stimulates pineal gland functions? where are your sources?
I have, as have several others who have the flask below their usernames, cited several sources which refute your anecdotal speculation. Look at the KEGG pathway for Tryptophan metabolism. You will see a metabolic pathway with the enzyme 2.1.1.49 completely separate from the pathway producing pineal gland metabolites.
DMT crystals in the pineal gland? DMT crystals don't even exist in the peripheral tissues where they are produced....why would they magically appear in the pineal gland?

look...you are entitled to believe in fairies and magic wishing wells if you please, but don't try to confuse it with actual science. there's no shortage of pseudoscience on the net, and this sort of new-age poppycock does not sit well with people who are actually well informed about the 'spirit molecule'.
 
benzyme said:
Rising Spirit said:
Still, DMT has an incredible ability to stimulate pineal gland activation and the myriad visions which occur during such a merging. Frankly, there is nothing at all "absurd" about perceiving a connection between DMT and the functions of the pineal gland. Whether or not there are actual DMT crystals existing within the pineal gland is yet to be conclusively affirmed or dis-proven
Click to expand...

how do you know DMT stimulates pineal gland functions? where are your sources?
I have, as have several others who have the flask below their usernames, cited several sources which refute your anecdotal speculation. Look at the KEGG pathway for Tryptophan metabolism. You will see a metabolic pathway with the enzyme 2.1.1.49 completely separate from the pathway producing pineal gland metabolites.
DMT crystals in the pineal gland? DMT crystals don't even exist in the peripheral tissues where they are produced....why would they magically appear in the pineal gland?

look...you are entitled to believe in fairies and magic wishing wells if you please, but don't try to confuse it with actual science. there's no shortage of pseudoscience on the net, and this sort of new-age poppycock does not sit well with people who are actually well informed about the 'spirit molecule'.
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"Ouch!!!" :(

Why must you be so sarcastic? I guess your bedside manner settles the question, whether or not interacting with DMT makes individuals more open to communicating with individuals with alternate conceptions. Or does it? I guess it is irrelevant. Perhaps I preferred to see a connection between the pineal gland and the All Seeing Eye. My bad? Sure, much of our communications are based on the limitations of human semantics but there seem to be both, scientific and spiritual takes on all that happens within our own biochemistry. I didn't mean to come off all crunchy but I have seen the light of lights for the vantage point of the third eye and thought, however wrongly, that there is something to the idea. It's all illusion, ultimately, so why make such a snide comment? Have I accidentally stepped into the wrong neighborhood? I was simply replying to a thread which captivated my interest. My "sources" are my own personal and Omni-personal experiences. Sure, it's naive to assume that we share the same transcendental frequencies of universal consciousness, while under the spell of Sacred Medicines. To each their own?

While it may be unscientific to suspect that there is a correlation between the physical pineal gland, situated within the human brain, and the spiritual third eye, situated within the auric body... it is a common assumption amongst psychonauts. Perhaps anecdotal and/or "new-age poppy cock", it is my honest experience. BTW, my sources are my impressions and interpretations of my consciousness. I am open to correction, so don't attempt to one-up a brother. I have my own path and follow my own inner calling. That being, the eclipsing of the isolated self with the experience of the fully awakened Godhead, essentially speaks in it's own language and I do not believe it is either science or religion... it simply EXISTS. :shock:

Say, what do you see within your own head when you are peaking? Nothing resembling the activated behavior of an awakened third eye? Have you experienced an activated third eye, whether it is related to the pineal gland or not? I am fascinated to know what you, who is well informed about the 'spirit molecule' perceive while imbibing of these chemicals. Have you seen the Light? Been shattered into the formless void? I'm not be patronizing, I am truly curious. :?:

We all voyage to our most natural state of being, as each is most unique. So shall we be pleasant and accept that our personal headset may be intrinsically unalike, yet, our projections can mutually coexist? If I may as blunt as you are being, I suspect you have never had a genuine breakthrough experience? who am I to think you have not? Science and spirit are ONE. Although, to be fair and open minded, we may have different variations of breakthroughs, so I shouldn't presuppose that I can know your experience. From my windowsill, such Medicine causes the finite self to be temporarily obliterated for a brief handful of moments (timelessness) and many insights into the indivisibility of the ONE consciousness are revealed. That is, if and only if, the subjective ego is released from ones perception and so invites an awareness of that field of unified, indivissible energy or GOD Have a wonderful journey.

Peace. love & Light
 
I'm not quite clear on what you mean when you refer to the "opening of the third eye" and similar expressions. I would think that to experience such a phenomena is kind of vague and open to interpretation. In other words, you can potentially have an identical experience to someone else and where you label it the "opening of the third eye" they may regard it in a completely different manner. If by opening the third eye, you mean seeing things that are not there, then I think we have all gone through that. Other than that, I don't see quite where you're going with it, and perhaps that's simply cause I haven't had mine open yet :?:
 
ok

I will entertain your queries... I have seen the light... it was a coma.
a near-fatal experience caused by an overdose of PCP. doctors had to revive me.
it was the stereotypical NDE, near-death experience. so yeah, I saw the light.
sure, I believe god exists, if that's what you want to call it. I know there are things that science cannot fully explain, production of dmt isn't one of them. The pineal gland is mysterious, but it's not a control center for all things metaphysical in nature, any more than the appendix is. The pineal gland is known to regulate circadian rhythms, perhaps cranking out an MAOI or two; but there's no evidence to suggest it teleports us to other realms of consciousness where mutant beings breastfeed us knowledge.
 
Agreed benzyme and burnt.

I find it actually a little bit troubling that many connect DMT and the pineal gland, or the pineal gland and some kind of supernatural stuff. I do not find it troubling because I don't respect other peoples beliefs, I find it troubling because some try to combine real science on the matter (or totally neglects it) with really far out mystical mumbo jumbo. It makes it look even worse when people do that.

We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we are not entitled to confuse facts with spacy speculations and present it as fact. All evidence suggests that DMT is not regulated or produced by the pineal, and Rick Strassman put forth the hypothesis a long time ago, probably not having the information we have today. He has later spesifically stated that we don't know, and that he got a bit flamed for that this hypothesis got out of control in public. When evidence suggests pretty clearly that this is the matter, then let's just cool down about it. Yes, it would be pretty damn cool if it were the case, but it's not. And that's cool too. DMT is just as awesome for me anyway, and my experiences with it is just as nuts. It doesn't really matter. There is no need for pineal production of DMT to enjoy and value the subjective effects of the drug.

As a community that represents the use, personal significance and exploration of psychedelics, I think the best is if we'd try to keep ourselves as true as possible with science on the matter. We can believe all we want, as long as it doesn't seriously collide with evidence and facts, and as long as the beliefs ain't presented as such. Those criteria haven't been thoroughly fulfilled with all of this pineal gland stuff, but I see that many in here fortunately accept the evidence and have left behind the pineal nonsense. Let's keep it that way =)
 
Im dissapointed with Rick Strassman continuing to sell his pineal beliefs in the spirit molecule documentary, even after all the scientific literature contradicts this possibility for the lack of INMT expression.

Rising Spirit, I think its fine if you have your own ideas about the Light/Third eye/Whatever else, as long as you're not hurting anybody or spreading it as facts.. But you must understand that this forum has a down-to-earth orientation. We have seen way too much misinformation and wild speculative (often straight up lies or non-sense) ideas spread around, and this actually only serves to further de-legitimize the psychedelic movement in the eyes of others. We want people to come here and know that what they read is trustable and verified information, that what is presented in the Nexus is reliable and that psychedelic users can be reasonable.

Also, notice that once you start ignoring the clear evidence and just keep on with unfounded speculative ideas, well, then you lose any base for sharing those ideas and relating to others, no? I mean, if you dont need any evidence and reasonable sense behind your thoughts, then why are they any more meaningful or truthful than, say, guru Shanti Baba the 23rd, who says you must eat garbage and say the alphabet 33 times to get enlightened, or guru Baba Shanti the 42nd, who says the exact opposite, or hitler's ideas on race, or whatever else? And if subjective experience and feelings is your only proof, well, still the same problem, dont you think hitler truly believed what he said, as well as many weird gurus or freaks? I think one must always consider the possibility when looking at one's subjective experience: What if they are mistaken? Optical illusions are a simple and yet informative example of how our perceptions can be wrong. So are dreams. So how can you base your ideas just on this? What about delusional people? What about those that convincingly hear voices that they have to kill their neighbours ? What if one day you trip on psychedelics and they tell you you must kill others? You see, this kind of reasoning just doesnt give base for any relationship with the world, its just dangerously self-circular because it will only refer to itself for validation.

I dont mean this to offend you, but I honestly think that it just ends up leading to a "anything goes" situation which is very dangerous. I mean, we have often seen the consequences of this "alternative-anything-goes-if-its-against-mainstream-no-matter-the-evidence" ideas. For example I remember this case of a child dying in australia because their extremist homeopath parents refused to offer this kid a very simple western treatment for a simple treated disease and kept with their homeopath treatment. Im not saying you would let your child die, im just taking your arguments to the last consequences because I feel its important to maybe help you see what I mean.

That being said, this isnt about being closed minded and thinking that science knows it all absolutely. It neither takes out the mistery of the psychedelic experiences. Personally I have had some very very strong experiences with psychedelic in my life, and they make me appreciate existence even more. But I dont come back believing all I saw literally (and neither will I deny it all claiming with certainty "its all just the neurons going crazy" or something silly like that). In the end I will come back and know that, whatever it is, I take the lessons that I can put into practice in my daily life, and continue living using the change in consciousness as a reminder of the beauty and mistery of reality. When I come back I will base my actions not on the literal interpretation of the experience, but on evidence and testable knowledge, as well as on my conscience and the joint-activity of my emotions/body/intellect, and basic relationship guidelines such as "dont do to others as you wouldnt like to be done to you", and yes as well as using the psychedelic experience as one more source but not in detriment or over-taking other sources of knowledge (such as science, academic knowledge, words of my grandma, my dreams, etc, each in their own place and with their own relative weight in my decisions). I feel that my naturally skeptical nature is very healthy and doesnt at all take out the incredible Awe I have for existence, and I really suggest people to develop skepticism in themselves as means of bettering our relationships with each other and critical thinking towards the world.

Sorry for going a little overboard with the post size there, just felt I had to respond to this
 
Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest here, and apologies if this isn't entirely relevant, but until fairly recently I thought the very idea of the existence of the 'third eye' was unfounded 'new age poppycock'.

My 'awakening' and change of mind came not through DMT, but through my Iboga initiation. That experience was incredibly vivid, and I can't really say it was open to any kind of interpretation...an eye, which in a visual sense remarkably resembled the structure of an actual eye, opened between my two actual eyes, with eyes closed. It was crystal clear, and remained open for a day. Some people may also consider this the ajna chakra, I'm not sure. The detail of it was incredible, the pupil inside the eye was roving around. It wasn't benevolent or malevolent, it just was. Amazing and completely unexpected, and quite in my face. Now, I'm not going to start spouting half baked new age theories, just that, for me, something quite unusual or profound occurred then, and there MUST be a biological basis for the third eye in the human brain. I don't know what that is, but as a purely speculative guess, I would say the pineal gland, I really don't know though. I just believe we all posses a third eye whether we know it or believe it.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't see why there must be a biological basis between a hallucination you had from a drug and some biological counterpart to that hallucination. When I went to see a Phish concert, Trey looked like he had eight fingers on one hand, but I didn't think he might really have those extra fingers [obviously not the greatest analogy]. Perhaps there is some biological tendency for people to perceive a third eye in hallucinogenic states, but that doesn't mean that there is some biological counterpart to it. In fact, the fact that the pineal gland is located around there could be complete coincidence, but people tied the two together. If you wanna say you have a third eye, then fine, just realize that chances are it has nothing to do with the pineal gland.
 
Good morning Folks,

I respect many of the opinions expressed within this Scientific zone of the Nexus, so please forgive me for posting my "life is so mysterious" ideologies and conceptions, in such an academic realm. If I have tossed a rock at a the proverbial beehive or breached into a selective region of the Nexus (whose preferences have disdain for overt spirituality), I shall say my peace and bid you all adieu. An unwelcome guest is better off to make a hasty departure and be on his/her way, eh? I truly meant no offense. I am not a scientist, chemist or physicist. I am an artist and musician. While I have been accused of being an intellectual by many of my friends and colleagues, whose predilections draw them towards a more Faith-oriented view of God and the cosmos, I have always been more intuitive and philosophical than overtly rational. Again, my bad for stepping into the wrong forum and causing such challenges to be issued forth. Many of my initial comments were drawn from what I had read about DMT in the late 1970's. I didn't get the chance to try it then.

I have had just one experience with DMT, albeit in four evenly spaced lift-offs. It's profundity was immense and nearly identical to previous transcendental levels of consciousness, achieved in my past voyages with other entheogens. Only more immediate and powerful! Over the last 36 years, Earth time, I have embraced many psychedelics (mostly LSD in the early days) and found each "activated" what I and many others label as, the third eye and eventually... the crown (chakra). Hey, I can accept your scholarly evidence, that the pineal gland neither produces nor contains DMT. Still, there it is most reasonable to note a connection to mystical experiences and this part of the human head (regardless of ones cherished beliefs). Wiser souls than I have crossed into areas which are a departure from our reasoning intellects, only to find the living presence of God. Not just to have the experience but to realize it is All that exists. Since I never suspected that the pineal gland contained mescaline, psilocybin or LSD; I was merely repeating what I vaguely recalled from readings over 30 years ago. I have only one close friend who has embraced DMT experiments and I have had an alternate perspective to his, so I can only judge from my own direct interactions. I am a reasonable character and can objectively accept that these earlier misconceptions are incorrect but there is a definite interrelationship to the imbibing of these chemicals and the "activation" of these areas of the brain.

Whether its is a coincidence or not, the pineal gland is physically located exactly where these spiritual visions emerge (the third eye). I believe it is Humankind's fixation for order and symbiosis, that causes some generalities to be taken as fact, so we can chock it up to the learning curve? That being said, I personally feel there is nothing "mysterious" about spiritual states of consciousness. The study and exploration of said levels of consciousness, is a type of science unto itself, just not one in which LOGIC has all the answers. You see, awareness can exist without thought. Psychedelic use can give us a glimpse into this state of mind but only post-breakthrough, as it cannot be analyzed during the eclipsing, for only in merging with The ONE, can any inkling be perceived of this unified field. By in large, it is through the temporary cessation of the thought process, by which this can be seen. Yes, it is certainly a debatable issue, whether awareness exists without thought or self identification, but those who have had this kind union with the Omniself, can attest to the reality of. Such insights are highly impersonal, for at the moment of union, the subjective witness is dissolved into the Infinite and no words can convey nor can the subjective perceiver enter into such a Holy (for lack of a better word) plane of indivisible consciousness.

Such an observation can and often does take place just prior peaking; immediately post peaking, so there is a possibility to glean some insight from the process. From my direct experiences, time and time again, I have had the psychedelically stimulated awareness of an indivisible frequency of unified consciousness. Some call it, "The awakening of the Godhead", others call it speculative imagination. Now, whatever labels we choose to utilize, it is neither an anomaly nor an irrational interpretation of experience. It can be proven to those who have not had the experience and words fall short of a proper description. And yet we try. That being said, only a fool goes into the halls of academia and preaches the Gospel. Likewise, rationalists and/or atheists needn't wander into churches or temples and spout the doctrine of the non existence of Spirit. Be well and have a great journey towards your cultivation of proven scientific data. I respect your approach and will not irritate you with my visions but please do not be dismissive of my experiences. I don't judge you guys for NOT having the same experiences.

Arrivederci.
 
Hmmm well I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything, I was just sharing my personal observations. Also based on my experience, I'm going to have to respectfully agree to disagree...this wasn't an illusion, to my mind at least. It may have nothing to do with the pineal, but some part of my psychology was activated that I never knew existed or had encountered before. Following this initial experience it could be opened again through ingestion of other psychedelics or through meditation, and I encountered it vividly on each of my three flood dose sessions with Iboga. I have a fair bit of experience with a variety of psychedelics, (Iboga works quite distincty from these, it produces visions as oppose to 'visuals') and I'm a scientist in training, I try not to jump to unfounded conclusions, and I'm not one for believing in "leprechauns and flying gnomes" (I mean, come on!) but I strongly think there is more going on regarding consciousness than the current scientific model acknowledges. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Furthermore, neither of you guys has experienced a flood dose of Iboga, so I can't really compare notes with you, which itself isn't very scientific I guess.
 
The pineal gland is known to regulate circadian rhythms, perhaps cranking out an MAOI or two; but there's no evidence to suggest it teleports us to other realms of consciousness where mutant beings breastfeed us knowledge.
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from wiki:
Pinoline is a methoxylated tryptoline that occurs in the pineal gland during the metabolism of melatonin. Its chemical names are 5-methoxytryptoline and 6-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (6-MeO-THBC). The biological activity of this molecule is of interest as a potential free radical scavenger (antioxidant), similar to that function of melatonin.[1] It also acts as an endogenous MAOI.

...this is interesting, not that i fully understand it.
 
yes, which is why i mentioned the MAOI production.
Pinoline has been shown to inhibit CYP2D6, which is indeed very fascinating. This should definitely be taken into consideration when pondering altered states..the pineal produces a harmala-like compound...deep meditation in conjunction with heavy breathwork (INMT has been shown to be expressed in lung tissues and the heart) may induce some psychedelic-like effects; something to think about.

so, the pineal may just happen to produce a protective agent for endogenous tryptamines to temporarily bind and signal without being oxidized, during waking states. again, there is no conclusive evidence for this, but it seems fairly plausible. what remains to be seen is the actual concentrations of DMT in serum, if it actually reaches the magical millimolar concentrations which elicit full blown psychedelic experiences.
 
benzyme said:
blue_velvet said:
^^^^
I concede my point. How can I argue with such convincing and exhaustive rhetoric?
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well, I could tell you the biochemical basis for why the pineal gland doesn't 'signal' for DMT production, but the esoterics of it would likely fly over your head anyway.
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You are a presumptuous ass.
 
Hey now - don't be dissing my Leprechaun buddies. They're the only ones it it for fun while I'm under! This is certainly not the right section for this topic, and I clearly see it from both sides. I healthy dose of skepticism goes a long way when dealing with our favorite topic, skepticism does not act as an antidote for esoteric explanations of our experiences either. All of the doors need to say open.
 
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