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Rethinking DMT and the Pineal Gland

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benzyme said:
well, I could tell you the biochemical basis for why the pineal gland doesn't 'signal' for DMT production, but the esoterics of it would likely fly over your head anyway.
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"...the pineal may just happen to produce a protective agent for endogenous tryptamines to temporarily bind and signal without being oxidized, during waking states. again, there is no conclusive evidence for this, but it seems fairly plausible."

Contradiction anybody? So you can explain the biochemical basis for why the pineal gland does and does not signal for DMT production? Then why argue the OM in the first place?
 
dream_denizen said:
benzyme said:
well, I could tell you the biochemical basis for why the pineal gland doesn't 'signal' for DMT production, but the esoterics of it would likely fly over your head anyway.
Click to expand...


"...the pineal may just happen to produce a protective agent for endogenous tryptamines to temporarily bind and signal without being oxidized, during waking states. again, there is no conclusive evidence for this, but it seems fairly plausible."

Contradiction anybody? So you can explain the biochemical basis for why the pineal gland does and does not signal for DMT production? Then why argue the OM in the first place?
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"A potent inhibitor of INMT, which is a necessary enzyme for the synthesis of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, is found in particularly high concentrations in the pineal gland. A bypassing or inhibition of the synthesis of this inhibitor might be responsible for trances and other psychedelic states achieved "without drugs" (Strassman 1990).

what contradiction?
there's no contradiction there; you misunderstood.
hypothetically, the tryptamines are protected from oxidation by an endogenous MAOI, and thus bind active sites in the raphe nuclei where signaling occurs from these ligands. I didn't say the pineal gland signals for the production of those tryptamines, there's nothing to suggest this.

that protective agent I speak of is pinoline, a known CYP2D6 inhibitor.
the pineal gland doesn't signal for the production of dmt, and the pineal gland lacks the enzyme for its production.
Instead, the pineal expresses HIOMT, which methylates N-Acetylserotonin. What Strassman was
alluding to is inhibition of this enzyme, and others, in the serotonin --> melatonin pathway.
This is known as feedback inhibition



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Why would the pinealgland thesis be so persistant?
Is it the coïncidence that strassman mentioned it while many old and long dead philosophers like descartes also attributed so much things to it? He thought it was a sort of funicle from the soul to the body or the other way round, if i'm correct.

Either way, i have the feeling that the pinealgland thesis will keep returning over and over again. Maybe it will become a religion one day. Maybe it already is a religion even: it's something people persistently believe in although there's no evidence for it, or even counter-evidence, yet they keep believing it.
Well, that could make legal DMT a piece of cake then, since it's obviously a religious sacrament as stated above.
If we'll ever live to see DMT get legalised, we should thank all those people who persistently believe in something without probable reason, for having made this possible.
 
polytrip said:
Why would the pinealgland thesis be so persistant?
Is it the coïncidence that strassman mentioned it while many old and long dead philosophers like descartes also attributed so much things to it? He thought it was a sort of funicle from the soul to the body or the other way round, if i'm correct.

Either way, i have the feeling that the pinealgland thesis will keep returning over and over again. Maybe it will become a religion one day. Maybe it already is a religion even: it's something people persistently believe in although there's no evidence for it, or even counter-evidence, yet they keep believing it.
Well, that could make legal DMT a piece of cake then, since it's obviously a religious sacrament as stated above.
If we'll ever live to see DMT get legalized, we should thank all those people who persistently believe in something without probable reason, for having made this possible.
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The pineal gland thesis is so persistent for two reasons.

1) The theory has not actually been tested.....benzyme I challenge you to show a brain study where the pineal was studies specifically. I will literally print this page out and eat my words! :) ...and once I eat that paper I challenge you to show a study were that region of the brain was studied under stress. Rick Strassmans's theory is that the pineal releases DMT under huge stress such as birth and death. BTW I don't agree with Rick on his theory, as I think the likely scenario is that DMT is a side product...and perhaps a real trace amine neurotransmitter.

2) People don't pay attention. Read the spirit molecule. Rick was pretty straight forward about it being a THEORY...and hey for a psychiatrist commenting on biology it was s descent theory... I mean there are methylation enzymes present...agreed there are o-methylation enzymes, but a reasonable theory from someone out side of biochem...


Personally I still think we will find that it's produced in the brain....but who cares what I think...and does it matter? NO! There are studies showing that all the necessary components are present in the spine. DMT is produced endogenously...is it a side product or does it serve an actual purpose is the only question that matter at this point......to SCIENCE.

Cheers
 
I lost my hard copy, so I can't cite on which page it was printed, but I do believe it was the great Hunter S. who bioassayed pure adrenochrome extracted from the human pineal gland... not DMT. 😉
 
I actually like that even though not really backed up by science that people relate DMT to the pinial gland/third eye. My only reasoning behind saying that is I see it as a possible pathway to get DMT legalized in some places, probably not anytime soon, maybe years or decades from now. Imagine if DMT became very popular in a Hindu majority country or something, where the pineal gland/third eye is already a big part of their religion and culture. And if a lot of them started using it for religious reasons, they might legalize it, or not punish for personal use there. Then there could possibly be court cases in the US where they could challenge for legal usage if you were that religion, like that church that is allowed to use ayhuasca already in the US. I don't know about the rest of you but I would pretend to be a hindu instead of an atheist, if that would allow me to smoke/make DMT legally.

I'm not sure if this is somewhat coherent, or even feasible. I'm really stoned off of some nepali hash right now.
 
ms_manic_minxx said:
I lost my hard copy, so I can't cite on which page it was printed, but I do believe it was the great Hunter S. who bioassayed pure adrenochrome extracted from the human pineal gland... not DMT. 😉
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Yeah, I almost mentioned this previously but as it is essentially, his subjective take on his personal experience, I figured our overly-rational friends would stomp the idea to dust, as insignificant speculation.

I do recall reading it in college but that was over 33 years ago. Something about diving into a swimming pool after ingesting the pineal extraction and his cosmic immersion, therein? As I vaguely recall, he compares it to LSD? It's been a while and I've run my eyes over thousands of books since then, so... :?:

Was it from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Anyway, it dumbfounds me that so little research has been done on an area of the brain/mind which is linked so clearly to mystical states of consciousness and myriad spiritual visions and/or realizations. I suspect if more scientifically-oriented persons had these powerful experiences, they certainly would be chasing them like a dog after a rabbit! It's funny how brief a span of time The Age of Reason actually occupies in world history. This headset is now being vigorously propagated by those who have little-to-no Omni-personal experience. It seems that we have clearly learned that DMT is not actually produced in the pineal gland, despite the prior theories. I can adhere to such a logical, factual finding. But the whole idea of scoffing at the suggestion of a definitive connection between the "All Seeing Eye" and the pineal gland, on the other hand, is mind-numbingly clinical, IMHO. 😉

Our species has held numerous theories and beliefs, yet largely, they have been illusory. In this era of quantum physics, we have new views into the nature of matter and energy, which are light years beyond that which had been hypothesized, theorized and researched, previously. New breakthroughs lead to new insights but must follow pragmatically dictated processes. Science = discovery and is therefore, a respectable form of enlightenment. I submit that the logicians of today, will be viewed at the "witch doctors" of tomorrow.

By in large, this sadly neglected area of intensive study, leaves more unanswered questions than answered. Perhaps it is because without having lived through the symbiosis, it does not even exist objectively? Maybe it doesn't exist objectively because it has yet to be fully developed through it's direct interaction with a subjective witness? IMO, this is the source for most of the dismissive attitude amongst the logicians who frequent the Nexus. If you live through it, you cannot deny it's existence. If you have not lived through it consciously, it remains speculative in nature and merely a theoretical bit of imaginary nonsense, being presented as the factual. "Mumbo Jumbo" and the like? :roll:

Please allow me to briefly steer this thread away from the nitty-gritty about the hypothesis which interrelates the experience of DMT imbibing and the theory of a symbiosis between the human pineal gland and the "third eye" (singular eye). I feel compelled to direct my comments in this manner, to illustrate how impossible it can be to settle this issue with any mutually satisfying results. The point remains quite moot until our continued research proves it so or perhaps, otherwise? I bow to the wisdom of the moderators who have the power to EDIT my insertion, if it is not even remotely relevant to the discussion. As benzyme so succinctly states, this is the SCIENCE FORUM. Even so, many brilliant scientists frequently enter into spiritual and philosophical discussions, so turn about is fair play? I've yet to witness any esteemed logicians being booted-out of the Spirituality & Philosophy forum. I believe there is something to be gained from cross-training our minds.

Still, should science and spirit be such divergent realms to one another? Can a science of the spirit be actualized systematically? I don't recall the widespread use and allure of the Science Molecule... but I may have missed something in my complacency? Freedom of speech is most lovely thing and all, but if the applicability of these comments are completely out of context, I will fully understand if it gets offed. No genuine offense will be taken. OK?

THE DIGRESSION...


This juxtaposition reminds me of a very riveting conversation I had with my best friend Eric, back in the late 1970's. His IQ was obscenely high and it was nearly impossible to defeat in a game of chess. He was the East Coast Junior Chess Champion at the age of 13, easily dispatching older players in his division. I have only beaten him a few times, when he was literally blindfolded (or badly hung over). Eric introduced me to psychedelics, back in the day. Please bare with this short story, for I feel it has some relevance to the fundamental angst I feel within this thread (and wholly based on my subjective projections, I freely admit). :idea:

One fine day we had a mutually synchronised realization, from completely alternate perspectives. We had been dosing on an admittedly, overly large amount of LSD (4 blotters of clean acid). You know, the kind of trip which lifts one to a causative plane of pure consciousness? Well, that's my wording and cannot convey enough about this understanding of the Oneness. That radiant being, with such uncanny power... so far beyond our finite awareness of reality. We speculate that it is this unseen force, we collectively believe has created all of this universe and it's grand immensity. Well, those who choose to believe their impressions, I should qualify? What we used to call "Cosmic Consciousness", in the 60's & 70's.

It was a potent trip, to say the very least! Hours passed before we could manage the use of words, again. After a long period of silence, he slowly said to me with measured wording. And while I have a photographic memory, as did Grandfather, I admit I freely paraphrase here, as it was not recorded by any mechanical device and I use my imperfect memory to transcribe the essence of the dialog.

"I am no longer a confirmed atheist. I can't believe I was ever so certain and arrogant." I asked him if he has seen God? He held an odd expression on his face for several seconds, struggling to find the appropriate words. He evenly replied, "I can't say if I would call it God but I see an incredible intelligence at play. Everything I know is so tiny and insignificant in comparison to this level of intelligence, that I feel like an amoeba who is trying to reason out it's own existence. What I hold as true, as the highest of reasoning, is nothing... "

"None of my ideas mean anything outside of my personal belief system. Nothing matters! Nothing matters to the universe, as it is in an eternal state of expansion and contraction. Our whole species has systems and ideologies which are relative to our existence and cannot see beyond our limitations in awareness. Even galaxies and are minuscule specks! Nothing matters... but everything seems so very perfect, in it's mechanism."

"I was so sure I had all the answers that I missed this amazing intelligence all around me and beyond anything I can grasp! Is this what you mean by God? I've known you for years and I have come to see you as one of the most intelligent people I know but I suspected you were a little crazy or hiding behind a religious facade. Until today, however, I has no idea what you meant by Universal mind or Divine intention. I wouldn't use those terms but I can kind of understand why you would. I thought it was a concept you held, not a living reality you saw. I'm too high to talk about it now but I know there is something happening which I will never be able to prove to anyone else and that really bothers me."

I smiled and said, "Nobody can proves the existence of God, as what we refer to as God is not a concept. From my windowsill, God is the sum total and source of all things known or unknown, manifested and yet perennially unmanifested as raw awareness. God is the indivisible force which animates all of creation, yet resides Absolute and unbound by the laws of the material universe. We cannot capture God with our small minds nor with our blind faith. We can, however, intuit this Omniscient state of being and seek to harmonize our individual being with that spiritual force. Sages, mystics and visionaries live in this attunement and in such a high frequency of awareness, most of the time. It's all mind. I seek an impression with the light of this intelligence, decidedly and consciously. That's what I am always going on about, however, imperfectly I express myself."

Eric had a thoughtful expression on his face and question, "But isn't that a religious concept? Is that what religion is suppose to be trying to say? Except for Taoism, they don't do a good job of making it very clear. I still don't believe in an anthropomorphic Deity but now I have had this experience and... "

"I guess that's why you always say it cannot be put into human words? I thought that was a tactic of philosophical evasion but i think I can see something to what you mean. It cannot be proven unless you see it yourself. Suddenly the world looks so incredibly beautiful, full of energy, purpose and meaning! I will have to remember this moment for the rest of my life. Please don't let me ever forget this discussion" I never did. 8)

Eric remained an agnostic until he passed away, at far too young an age. he had an almost natural aversion to religion and I don't really blame him. The thing I most admired about Eric was his capacity to respect another's perspective, as he had realized that all thoughts are but infinitesimally minute before the force of Intelligence which created, sustains and re-absorbs all of energy & matter. Respect is a beautiful thing.

What does this story have to do with this ongoing discussion? Nothing directly, but it does highlight some of the problematic aspects of our attempts in reasoning beyond statistical data; taking a new view of what is a common assumption about the nature of reality, without falling into hypothetical debate. I boldly speculate that it was the activation of our pineal glands, through absorption with the LSD in our brains. That's just my take on the experience, though. Please forgive this digression if it offends or possibly even bores any readers following this thread. My bad...

That being said, "Happy Lunar New Year, Guys!" May we all find something significant in our quest for a greater degrees of awareness, in this Year of the Metal Rabbit. I don't know how many Asians frequent the Nexus but I would like to respectfully bow to their forefather's forefathers (and fore-mothers). May our pineal glands buzz merrily throughout the remainder of our dream of earthly mortality (sorry, I couldn't resist). :lol:
 
interesting takes on the matter
but LSD, like DMT, doesn't stay in the brain for long. the experience may leave an imprint,
but the compound undergoes rapid turnover << this is what many people seem to overlook

unless you're talking about the imprint; i certainly agree with that

and adrenochrome is simply oxidized epinephrine; gives a headache and some tachycardia, but that's pretty much it.
 
Probably the best evidence for the presence of the N,N-dimethyltryptamine are the lucid dreams. No, wait, it´s caused by the endogenous N,N-diethylamide lysergic acid!
 
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