Sacrifice

[MAGMA17]

The concept of sacrifice. It's something I often think about ... do you believe that there is a mechanism in this universe for which there is a price for everything?

Sometimes it seems to me that to have access to certain things you must first have made a sacrifice, which can be of any kind.

I remember some time ago hearing an anecdote from Terence McKenna where he said that before a trip he deliberately broke his glasses. He said he had paid for his ticket with that action.

Or even the classic concept of "do good and good will come back to you". Maybe there really is some mechanism in this life that regulates this?
You make the sacrifice of using your time, your energy for the good of someone else, and somehow you unlock a mechanism by which that "good" will then come back to you. (Obviously good is an abstract concept, but we can also interpret it as "what you want". What you want for yourself is what in fact is good).

Obviously sacrifice and "do the right thing" are different concepts, but I put them together because they are still connected in my opinion.

I am curious to hear some opinions on this

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think that we can perhaps look at this from various angles. There's the idea of karma as well as thinking about augmentations to causation. There's also the balance of Yin/Yang, and the concept of "as above, so below; as within, so without" (alchemy). Then there are sayings like "you get out what you put in," etc.

Regardless, anything we apply to the Universe about this mechanism will probably be faith-based, as there isn't a highly structured system that we can employ to verify. We can have an understanding until an instance arises in which our expectations are off. That could be a result of our misunderstanding of the workings of the mechanism or some other attribution, if not simply a creation of our own mind through various functioning of faculties.

It may be that there is a need for us to imbue the universe with such transactional acts for us to have some sort of system for understanding and for a sense of order outside of our interactions with each other.

For me, sacrifice is done out of nobility or altruism. There's nothing to receive in return, but to "pay what is owed" (in some instances) or as an act of balancing, or because it's seen as "necessary."

One love

 

[Fridge]

I believe that whatever you do in this life, it will eventually get mirrored back to you in some kind of way. If your actions are fuelled by love and positivity in general, this positive energy will accompany you on your path through life. Of course it also goes the other way around (and some people seem to strive on the negativity they spread).

For me an important thing to realize is to not expect anything in return for whatever good you do, otherwise the magic gets lost.

Hmmm sacrificing is tricky. I don't really see how destroying something as a sacrifice to gain something good from it would work. Sacrificing time to help someone is a different thing in my eyes, as you sacrifice time out of love.

This is just my idea and I might be totally wrong about it, but living in accordance to the ideas above improved my life in ways I couldn't have imagined. Love is the way.

 

[ShadedSelf]

Yes.

Even in very simplistic ways, you pushing youself to go to the gym sacrifices your comfort, you staying home and not going to the gym sacrifices your health.

I think the concept of sacrifice is actually quite important, know that everything has a cost, not from a dualistic perspective though.
I wouldnt sacrifice things to expect some others in return, the sacrifice is the beginning and the end of the intention.

To me this was a very liberating revelation, is similar to "nothing you do matters" but kinda more like "everything you do matters".
Makes it easier to make choices and embrace their outcomes, know that you are always making choices and being responsible for them, so, make choices that you actually care about.

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I think of the many ways in which the concept of sacrifice can go wrong. With regards to ethics, especially in Christian worldview, there is this self-imposed martyrdom where you think that letting go of your own good will automatically be rewarded by God later on. However often it just makes people bitter and deprives them of love. St. Paul seems to speak against this. "If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing."

Then there is this, in my opinion, superstitious way of making up a causality and trying to affect world through it. In the times of Buddha, animal sacrifices were common in India. People thought to gain favor from devas through them. This was a practice Buddha really opposed and was later banned by emperor Asoka. It brought suffering to the animals and nothing was really gained. In the Bible St. Paul speaks against what he calls "self-made religion" (Col. 2:23).

Then, I believe there is the real and noble sacrifice, like giving up your life as a soldier for the love of your people. That is motivated by love and a true greater cause. I believe this is how the sacrifice of Christ should be viewed too.

Then, of course, there are smaller offerings in all religions, like taking some food to graves or lighting up a candle in front of an image or a statue. I believe these have value as they are outward signs of inner conviction and intention and help in making them stronger.

I believe the key here, like in almost every spiritual and ritualistic act, is the intention. Why am I doing this? What kind of heart I'm putting into this action? Just seeking gain through some arbitrary means is something to be avoided in my opinion.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think of the many ways in which the concept of sacrifice can go wrong.

Thank you for stating this. I'm guilty of this, but not in a predicated by expectation of return of reward. It's more an imbalance of altruism and empathy.

One love

 

[Tomtegubbe]

On a more mundane side of things there are choices, like how much time should I be spending time with the kids (nieces and nephews for me) and how much with my adult buddies. You are sacrificing one thing for another. There is no obvious answer to this. I think it's useful to see that either way you are making a sacrifice and you can't always have it both ways. Different actions will have different consequences and you need to weigh your values.

Giving up drinking and going to bars was a sacrifice to the great benefit of my mental and physical health, but of course it meant that I needed to let go off something. The concept of sacrifice is useful in realizing that there are situations in life where you need to make decisions and can't have it all. I believe the blessing in those situations is that we become more aware of our values and have the opportunity to mature. But this is only true when we have the inner conviction that this is my choice and represents my values. Waiting for someone else to validate or reward our choices will not help us grow.

 

[Voidmatrix]

On a more mundane side of things there are choices, like how much time should I be spending time with the kids (nieces and nephews for me) and how much with my adult buddies. You are sacrificing one thing for another. There is no obvious answer to this. I think it's useful to see that either way you are making a sacrifice and you can't always have it both ways. Different actions will have different consequences and you need to weigh your values.

Giving up drinking and going to bars was a sacrifice to the great benefit of my mental and physical health, but of course it meant that I needed to let go off something. The concept of sacrifice is useful in realizing that there are situations in life where you need to make decisions and can't have it all. I believe the blessing in those situations is that we become more aware of our values and have the opportunity to mature. But this is only true when we have the inner conviction that this is my choice and represents my values. Waiting for someone else to validate or reward our choices will not help us grow.

But I want it aaaallllllll! :d

I agree with you.

Now I'm imagining a nome in a bar :lol:

One love

 

[MAGMA17]

All the interventions I must say were very interesting. They got me thinking, and that's what I was looking for.

The meeting point of all that you said is one: there is no need to wait for anything back, and the action of the sacrifice must be done with a pure heart. The problem that arises from this is: how much do we really know ourselves? how well do we really know the reasons that push us to act?

For example, many times I walk down the street and meet people who ask for charity. Sometimes I give money, while other times for various reasons I don't. And those times when I go straight without giving anything I always find myself with a weight in my heart of absolute power, and I think: am I sorry for the person and his situation or am I simply afraid of the possible consequences of not helping?

My problem is that I don't believe in the give-and-take mechanism of the universe, but I also don't believe that this mechanism doesn't exist, as I don't believe that ancient peoples who sacrificed animals and humans then had something in return, but I don't even believe they didn't have something in return ... I just don't know. Not having a direction (which in any case, even in the most materialistic case that exists is still a creed) I find myself immersed in this world of a thousand possibilities that then makes me really anxious and fearful of doing or not doing actions.

Then I would like to add another point: if there really is nothing to wait back, if there is no sort of "duty" in doing the good deed, then why should we evaluate as more noble whoever does the good deed without any interest? In fact it would be the exact same thing, the action has been done, that's the important thing.

If we say that the action must be done with a pure heart:
(Situation in which the universe works with a give and take mechanism)
y1= interest driven y2= no interest driven

x needs a, y1 gives a to x, x has a, y1 hasn't ? - STOP
x needs a, y2 gives a to x, x has a, y2 has ? - STOP

(Situation in which the universe doesn't work with a give and take mechanism)

y1= interest driven y2= no interest driven

x needs a, y1 gives a to x, x has a - STOP
x needs a, y2 gives a to x, x has a - STOP

 

[Tomtegubbe]

Then I would like to add another point: if there really is nothing to wait back, if there is no sort of "duty" in doing the good deed, then why should we evaluate as more noble whoever does the good deed without any interest? In fact it would be the exact same thing, the action has been done, that's the important thing.

One of the key points in Baghdad Gita is to let go from the fruits of your actions and act for the actions themselves.

“You have a right to your actions, but never to your actions’ fruits. Act for the action’s sake. And do not be attached to inaction. Self possessed, resolute, act without any thoughts of results, open to success or failure.”

Karma is complicated. In the long run the more honest your intentions and more skillful your actions are the more good will come out of it, but in short term much that happens is seemingly random. Trying to hack the karma, by tricking yourself to believe that any piece of alms will always return to you is in my opinion superstitious and it taints the motivation to give.

In a very early Christian text Didache there is the following advice on alms given:

"Let thine alms sweat into thine hands until thou knowest to whom thou art giving."

I believe the point here is that using your possessions wisely will generate more positive karma (actually changing things for better) than just superstitiously waiting for a reward for your offerings, even when spending your money to a fraudster instead of the honest person begging around the corner.

Now I'm imagining a nome in a bar :lol:

The nome is much better up to his housekeeping duty while sober.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Writing this response while working (I know, shame on me), but want to add something before I forget.

I think wrapping our heads around this can be hard because in many ways, the world over, we are conditioned to think, "what about me." So in our minds things are transactional, and we have to see what we get out if it in someway before making said sacrifice. And not all people but many.

What's funny, is that we approach a paradox, for even the most altruistic of motives and sacrifices is still selfish of the one making the sacrifice because they are catering to themselves through making the choice: they want to do what they feel is "right" or noble, etc.

One love

 

[ShadedSelf]

Changing gears a little bit, if you want to have a meta-conversation given the topic, in your situation what is to be sacrified is control.

Something that stuck with me: "Things dont come to those positevely oriented, but rather through them".

Learning to do the thing because of the thing itself takes time, we actually act that way as children, but then we mostly forget how to at some point.

The moment you start thinking about all the possibilities, you are actually getting further and further away from sacrifice into transaction, once you figure out the perfect choice, there is no sacrifice anymore, the downside being that the looking for that perfect choice will probably consume you in the process.

Its not a transaction, you cant extract value out of the universe, life is a game, you only win or lose as long as you are attached to its currency, to the outcomes of the game, so play, have fun, have sorrow, make mistakes and learn, its all worth it in the end.

 

[Tomtegubbe]

What's funny, is that we approach a paradox, for even the most altruistic of motives and sacrifices is still selfish of the one making the sacrifice because they are catering to themselves through making the choice: they want to do what they feel is "right" or noble, etc.

One love

I believe altruism only makes sense if we see it as means of serving the good of a greater whole. In order to serve others I need to eat and sleep. The kind of self-sacrifice that results in the loss of the whole is not very skillful or noble (like serving an oppressor or knowingly becoming a victim of a crime). Altruism is a meaningful concept if defined as putting the good of the whole first, but if it's only seen as a negation, "true selfishness" it easily results in absurdity both in theory and practice.

 

[Voidmatrix]

What's funny, is that we approach a paradox, for even the most altruistic of motives and sacrifices is still selfish of the one making the sacrifice because they are catering to themselves through making the choice: they want to do what they feel is "right" or noble, etc.

One love

I believe altruism only makes sense if we see it as means of serving the good of a greater whole. In order to serve others I need to eat and sleep. The kind of self-sacrifice that results in the loss of the whole is not very skillful or noble (like serving an oppressor or knowingly becoming a victim of a crime). Altruism is a meaningful concept if defined as putting the good of the whole first, but if it's only seen as a negation, "true selfishness" it easily results in absurdity both in theory and practice.

No doubt. I was merely observing the paradoxical balance: in desiring to and appealing to the choice of doing good for the whole, one is appealing selfishly (but not in a bad way) to themselves by admitting themselves to the desire they feel.

One love

 

[MAGMA17]

One of the key points in Baghdad Gita is to let go from the fruits of your actions and act for the actions themselves.

“You have a right to your actions, but never to your actions’ fruits. Act for the action’s sake. And do not be attached to inaction. Self possessed, resolute, act without any thoughts of results, open to success or failure.”

As much as it may be a teaching that I share and that exudes freedom, it is nonetheless a dogma. Some human being telling another human how to do a certain thing. At that point my Western mind says: if there is a correct way of doing a certain action, it means that the consequence of that action must be different from the consequence of the wrong way of acting. All this leads to a contradiction in my opinion. The object of the teaching is not to wait for anything, but if I follow it it is because I actually want to do the right thing.
I don't know if I expressed myself well.

Karma is complicated. In the long run the more honest your intentions and more skillful your actions are the more good will come out of it, but in short term much that happens is seemingly random. Trying to hack the karma, by tricking yourself to believe that any piece of alms will always return to you is in my opinion superstitious and it taints the motivation to give.

Let's say that perhaps we should start from further away. I don't know if the concept of karma exists and it is something that we really come into contact with. From the way you phrased your sentences I guess you give for certain the existence of this mechanism or whatever you can call it. Why do you believe this? (I'm not saying otherwise, I'm just curious about your experience. I'm really appreciating your interventions)

I think wrapping our heads around this can be hard because in many ways, the world over, we are conditioned to think, "what about me." So in our minds things are transactional, and we have to see what we get out if it in someway before making said sacrifice. And not all people but many.

I agree. In this case, I must say that it is precisely the possibility of this exchange that makes me anxious. If I had to choose I would prefer not to receive anything in return, neither positive nor negative.

Changing gears a little bit, if you want to have a meta-conversation given the topic, in your situation what is to be sacrified is control.

You caught me. Control is something I've been struggling with for a long time. Apparently it's a side of me that I can't "control". :lol: :lol:

Its not a transaction, you cant extract value out of the universe, life is a game, you only win or lose as long as you are attached to its currency, to the outcomes of the game, so play, have fun, have sorrow, make mistakes and learn, its all worth it in the end.

You can't even imagine how much I hope it is like you said. The problem is that this hope leads me to lose, in case :lol:

 

[Tomtegubbe]

One of the key points in Baghdad Gita is to let go from the fruits of your actions and act for the actions themselves.

“You have a right to your actions, but never to your actions’ fruits. Act for the action’s sake. And do not be attached to inaction. Self possessed, resolute, act without any thoughts of results, open to success or failure.”

As much as it may be a teaching that I share and that exudes freedom, it is nonetheless a dogma. Some human being telling another human how to do a certain thing. At that point my Western mind says: if there is a correct way of doing a certain action, it means that the consequence of that action must be different from the consequence of the wrong way of acting. All this leads to a contradiction in my opinion. The object of the teaching is not to wait for anything, but if I follow it it is because I actually want to do the right thing.
I don't know if I expressed myself well.

Karma is complicated. In the long run the more honest your intentions and more skillful your actions are the more good will come out of it, but in short term much that happens is seemingly random. Trying to hack the karma, by tricking yourself to believe that any piece of alms will always return to you is in my opinion superstitious and it taints the motivation to give.

Let's say that perhaps we should start from further away. I don't know if the concept of karma exists and it is something that we really come into contact with. From the way you phrased your sentences I guess you give for certain the existence of this mechanism or whatever you can call it. Why do you believe this? (I'm not saying otherwise, I'm just curious about your experience. I'm really appreciating your interventions)

Thank you. With regards to the teaching I quoted from Baghavad Gita, it's of course just one perspective. Of course the results of our actions are important too. It's just that we can't be certain about them and therefore we can't optimize our behavior so that we always get the favorable outcome. What we can be relatively sure is the intention of our own actions and morally speaking that's what we should focus on. Of course we have a moral responsibility to learn from the consequences of our actions, but that's another topic.

Karma means cause and effect and in it's basic form there's nothing supernatural about it. If I put unhealthy stuff in my mouth, eventually health problems will emerge. If I despise my fellow people, eventually they will turn against me. The web of causation can be very complicated, but very often you can follow the trails. You are a continuation of your parents and will suffer / benefit from the good and the bad they did when you were a kid. This is how I see the karma. You can pretty much take away all the religious and dogmatic aspects and still see how the term is useful.

 

[MAGMA17]

Thank you. With regards to the teaching I quoted from Baghavad Gita, it's of course just one perspective. Of course the results of our actions are important too. It's just that we can't be certain about them and therefore we can't optimize our behavior so that we always get the favorable outcome. What we can be relatively sure is the intention of our own actions and morally speaking that's what we should focus on. Of course we have a moral responsibility to learn from the consequences of our actions, but that's another topic.

Now I understand much better what you mean. I think you are right...in fact it is stupid to think that to every action there is a certain consequence that we can foresee, considering the complexity of what we are immersed in.
What emerges here too is the difficulty of knowing our true intentions. It's not that I don't trust myself (or maybe I do), but many times I have doubts about my awareness of this (and that of others).
After all we are still animals, animals with a pretty powerful unconscious.

Karma means cause and effect and in it's basic form there's nothing supernatural about it. If I put unhealthy stuff in my mouth, eventually health problems will emerge. If I despise my fellow people, eventually they will turn against me. The web of causation can be very complicated, but very often you can follow the trails. You are a continuation of your parents and will suffer / benefit from the good and the bad they did when you were a kid. This is how I see the karma. You can pretty much take away all the religious and dogmatic aspects and still see how the term is useful.

I like this view

 

[ShadedSelf]

Its possible that you are not as aware of your own intentions as you would like, or that you are scared of them being dark in some sense, perhaps leading you to a darker road.

Here the path is twofold:

·One can ask itself what the intentions were once an action has ocurred, a healthy ammount of rumination, perhaps if what you did didnt feel right, its important to judge as little as possible though.

·One can also take time to refine its intentions before actions, perhaps in meditation, the action itself could be exactly the same, but one migh take the opportuniy to find something different in it.
Meta-intentions are quite usefull, make choices with the intention to learn about this topic, about yourself, for example.

This actions/intentions might be a bit random in the beggining, no need to find the perfect choice/intention from the get-go, though that can be a little scary.

 

[MAGMA17]

Its possible that you are not as aware of your own intentions as you would like, or that you are scared of them being dark in some sense, perhaps leading you to a darker road.

Here the path is twofold:

·One can ask itself what the intentions were once an action has ocurred, a healthy ammount of rumination, perhaps if what you did didnt feel right, its important to judge as little as possible though.

·One can also take time to refine its intentions before actions, perhaps in meditation, the action itself could be exactly the same, but one migh take the opportuniy to find something different in it.
Meta-intentions are quite usefull, make choices with the intention to learn about this topic, about yourself, for example.

This actions/intentions might be a bit random in the beggining, no need to find the perfect choice/intention from the get-go, though that can be a little scary.

I think the selfish / altruistic dualism is more suitable in this case rather than good/dark. What I think is difficult to understand is whether one is acting for one another (I also wonder if altruism exists at all). As Voidmatrix explained well, in many cases these two concepts coexist and meet easily.
In addition, I would add that maybe there is nothing inherently wrong with selfishness, what is wrong is to seek a profit on the shoulders of others, creating harm to someone else. In that case selfishness acts in its worst form. But in fact, looking for the best for oneself, utility for oneself, if it does not harm anyone, is it wrong?
These are all questions on topics on which I do not have a certain thought.

I really like this concept of meta-intention

 

[Voidmatrix]

But in fact, looking for the best for oneself, utility for oneself, if it does not harm anyone, is it wrong?

While I'm still trying to apply this to myself and my life and truly assimilate it, the answer is no. When we are doing well with and in ourselves, truly, we invariably help others to reach similar states. So we have another paradox wherein thoughtful selfish acts benefit the whole.

One love