Safely disposing of basemix if you got a septic tank?

[Willeh]

Hey guys, first time theoretical extractor here

two questions!

1. I am on a septic tank, and I was told by the landlord not to ever put lye or drain cleaners or anything other than paper in the septic and I want to obey... I don't wanna be running outside for all to see and dumping basified mix into the ditch either. I don't have a PH meter, but would adding a small amount of home hardware muriatic acid, just till the color changes, make it septic tank safe? Would pouring the non neutralized base mix into a ditch be environmentally irresponsible? it's just a ditch? Don't wanna buy the acid unless I gotta!

2. Is Ronsonol lighter fluid is acceptable naptha?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

How about a drytek?

 

[Willeh]

Well, the biggest reason would be I am super prepared to do Cyb's tek and the supplies were available locally quickly and cheaply. I already have caustic soda and lighter fluid, and limonene would need to come in through the internet. That's what I went and bought all my supplies for, and I'm not scared of safely handling the materials. I also would like to get as much as I can out of the small amount of mhrb I was able to obtain, I stumbled across it in an actual store downtown much to my amazement and paid a lot for just a hundred grams and I am under the impression Cyb's tek yields best?

 

[Godsmacker]

I think that titration with HCl should do the trick with regards to rendering it safe to spill. 1 mole of HCl will neutralize 1 mole of NaOH, so ideally adding an equimolar amount of one will neutralize the other. Please note that I mentioned moles and not weight or volume. Adding the same mass of each will not be effective and may screw up your septic. The molar mass of NaOH is ~40 grams/mole and the molar mass of HCl is ~36.453 grams/mole. You can find out how many moles of a compound you have by dividing the mass (in grams) of each compound by their molar mass. Once you calculate this, recalculate it just to make sure (people screw up simple stoichiometry all too often... ). Once you have the # moles of the compound in solution, prepare an equimolar amount of liquid HCl and prepare for mixing. COnsidering you used the cyb tek, the small amount of space in your bottle may or may not be enough to allow for enough HCl to be added to neutralize it effectively. Also, considering you are using muriatic acid, which is a HCl solution, you need to find out the % of solution which consists of HCl and then weigh out the liquid HCl on a scale (preferably using a glass bowl over scale so you don't corrode/destroy your scale) until you have an equimolar amount. Since the HCl solution is not pure HCl, you would need to multiply the weight of your water by the % of HCl it contains (e.g. if your solution contains 36% HCl, you would need ~100-101ml of muriatic acid to have ~1 mole of product; this can be deceiving for many kitchen chemists!

I'd also suggest you use a PH meter or strips during titrations in order to confirm that PH is in a safe (5-9ish) range. The tannins and acetate ions in the solution may act as a buffer, resulting in a PH not expected from titration after neutralization of NaOH. Also, considering the thickness of such a sludge compared to normal water, it may screw up your plumbing regardless of PH and I would highly recommend you don't flush it regardless of PH...

HOWEVER...

Remember that the remaining solution contains a gigantic amount of fertile plant matter which could be used as a potential fertilizer for plants if the PH was titrated to a suitable level. By titrating it with HCl, you can turn trash into plant food -- I'd highly suggest you go for this route if possible; flushing this stuff down the drain is a horrible idea.

Selah,
-God

 

[cyb]

Just flush it into the tank.
The dilution is so great, it can't harm anything.

It would be like peeing in the ocean...no impact.

also... Ronsonol is fine.

 

[Willeh]

Thanks for very detailed scientific answer :]. I can get 31% muriatic from home hardware, and I would be using 50g of lye. I don't however own a PH meter, and was putting off purchasing one until my acacia seeds arrived... but I understand how one would be desirable. Also, my glass juice bottle is only one litre so there is not a ton of space. I have a ton of vinegar to, would diluting with say a litre of vinegar 5% acetic acid 1:1 make it safe enough for the ditch? I'm thinking the ditch is what I am leaning to over the septic even if it is neutralized.

edit: Aaaaand then cyb himself chimes in. I'm taking your word on this one, into the tank it goes without any acid. That was the answer I was hoping someone would give me

 

[cyb]

I'm taking your word on this one, into the tank it goes without any acid. That was the answer I was hoping someone would give me

If you feel bad about it for any reason...just toss a cup of vinegar in there too...that will neutralize it (but then, so would a bucket of water (ph7)

 

[Spaced Out 2]

Yep I don't feel bad, to the tank it goes.

 

[a1pha]

Couldn't help but notice this bit from general care and maintenance guide of septic systems:

When used as recommended by
the manufacturer, most household
cleaning products will not
adversely affect the operation of
your septic tank. Drain cleaners
are an exception, however, and
only a small amount of these
products can kill the bacteria and
temporarily disrupt the operation
of the tank.

In most cases lye is okay to put down the drain when in solution but because of the complex biologics necessary to maintain a properly functioning septic tank I would advice finding some other means of disposal -- Especially if the tank is not your property.

 

[pitubo]

You can simply mix it in with some garden soil in a bucket and spread it out in the garden. The last bits of dissolved nonpolar solvent will quickly evaporate and the remaining sludge is non-toxic. The NaOH will rapidly be converted into Na2CO3 by CO2 either from the atmosphere or from decomposing soil. Na2CO3 has a much more friendly pH.

 

[OneStepBeyond]

Dump it in the drain and leave the tap running for 5 minutes after if that makes you feel better (or do it right before you're about to have a shower). Don't try to dump it in a ditch, it won't really hurt the environment in the greater sense, but it will likely kill the grass and could raise un-needed questions and attention.

I'm not a chemist, but is it safe to just haphazardly mix lye with various acids? I know mixing bleach with acids is not safe.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I live in a house with a septic system. Do not pour large quantities of lye down the drain if you have a septic system. It kills the bacteria that are necessary in order to keep the system in working order, as a1pha pointed out. The bacteria are necessary to help break down the solids in your system. If you kill them, you may experience problems like the system backing up or otherwise malfunctioning.

If you really feel compelled to pour it down the drain, your best bet would be to neutralize it first, imo. I would do this in a 5gal hdpe bucket (add the basic solution and then add 3% vinegar slowly) to ensure that you have sufficient space to avoid overflows from the neutralization reaction. I would also leave the bucket open until you are positive that any residual NPS you didn't pull has evaporated. Then, and only then, would I dump it into my system.

If you have a septic system, it'e likely you are supposed to be adding enzymatic packets to the system at regular intervals. The one here is old, so we have to do it monthly. I believe newer setups may be once a year or something?

Personally, I just pour my basified mixes into my fire pit as I prefer to not even engage with the septic system rigmarole.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Dump it in the drain and leave the tap running for 5 minutes after if that makes you feel better (or do it right before you're about to have a shower). Don't try to dump it in a ditch, it won't really hurt the environment in the greater sense, but it will likely kill the grass and could raise un-needed questions and attention.

I'd suggest at least attempting neutralisation. You'll look very bad if you screw up your landlord's septic tank - he was quite emphatic, after all.

Although I would suggest using vinegar (or as high a strength of acetic acid as you can easily obtain) as the microbes will enjoy munching on that a wee bit more than plain old salt.

I'm not a chemist, but is it safe to just haphazardly mix lye with various acids? I know mixing bleach with acids is not safe.

You're not a chemist... Bleach reacts with acids to produce chlorine. Neutralizing a basic plant slop with (hydrochloric or acetic) acid might get a bit warm if the acid and base are both concentrated, but it won't produce any gaseous chlorine. If the calculations have been done correctly beforehand there won't be any free HCl (or HOAc) to be vaporized by this negligible amount of heat either. Aka pretty safe for the non-moronic.

 

[OneStepBeyond]

You're not a chemist... Bleach reacts with acids to produce chlorine. Neutralizing a basic plant slop with (hydrochloric or acetic) acid might get a bit warm if the acid and base are both concentrated, but it won't produce any gaseous chlorine. If the calculations have been done correctly beforehand there won't be any free HCl (or HOAc) to be vaporized by this negligible amount of heat either. Aka pretty safe for the non-moronic.

Ok, thanks. Just asking what seemed like a worthwhile question.

 

[Willeh]

Wellll, she went down the toilet with a cup of vinegar last night. Fingers crossed it's all good. I probably won't need to do another extraction for a while but I'll try harder to neutralize it or pour it in the ditch in the wee hours or something. Landlord doesn't come around ever so let's hope I don't make a reason for it. But 50g of lye in a whole toilet bowl of water and a couple cups of vinegar I see it not being a 'lot' of lye... I still probably won't do it again