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Salting out Mescaline Carbonate using Seltzer Water

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amor_fati

amor_fati

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Senior member Chemical engineer
From 69ron's Non toxic food safe extraction of mescaline using d-limonene (orange oil):
PlainCoil said:
What about mineral water instead of vinegar to make carbonate?
Just a crazy idea, would that work?
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PlainCoil said:
SWIM is also trying the idea mentioned a few pages back about using pure seltzer water to salt out the mesc in an effort to make mescaline carbonate. It's drying right now, I have heard.
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PlainCoil said:
SWIM says that the seltzer water worked like a charm.

Pure white (well, slightly yellowish) carbonate needles.

Couldn't be easier.
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PlainCoil said:
No pictures because SWIM's girlfriend ate it minutes after scraping it up.

It was less than 100mg, but she noticed effects at around the five hour point. It seemed to SWIM that she got a pretty good peak out of it, which tapered off and she fell asleep soon afterward.

SWIM simply added room temperature seltzer water to some d-limonene that had already been salted from with vinegar two or three times.

This was just for the hell of it to see what would happen.

Bubbling didn't really go crazy or anything, even though I shook it up some. A very clear layer formed within minutes, and it was drawn off with a flavor injecting syringe.

The seltzer water was then evaporated to reveal a small amount of nicely shaped crystals dissolved in the water.

Scraping showed them to be hard, slightly off white, needle shaped crystals that tasted really bitter on SWIM's tongue.

SWIM would love to try this with a fresh limonene pull. He also recommends that you guys give this a shot with your next limonene pull. What do you have to lose? Seltzer water is less than a dollar, just make sure it only has carbonated water on the ingredients.
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SWIM decided to give this a shot and was met with success: It yielded 210mg of a fine crystalline powder from some used limonene that SWIM had previously salted out with vinegar to yield 1200mg (he also has reason to believe that he had extracted more than this prior to this experiment, but that's not important here).

SWIM evaporated overnight with a dehydrator at 155F. When he scraped it up, he kept a beaker of water handy in order to wash his fingers and his scraping tool (this can be collected later by evaporation).

The yield can be a bit difficult to scrape up, as it is so fine that it will tend to float up into the air if car is not taken. It is also a bit sticky. However, it has a similar consistency to that of DMT-fumarate and may benefit from recrystallization in pure water. SWIM also wonders if it can be further purified with acetone and IPA, the way HCl extracts can.

The benefits of this method are that seltzer water is essentially odorless--whereas vinegar is obviously not--seltzer water is a bit cheaper than vinegar, and the material is a bit easier to work with (possibly more-so after recrystallization or purification). The downsides are how fine and sticky the powder can be and that seltzer water is less acidic than vinegar, probably requiring a larger volume to be used.

SWIM will do further experimentation when he has a larger amount to work with.
 

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wow! Swim wishes he kept his limo soaks. It would be interesting to see what sort of yield is possible from just a seltzer pull alone. Has SWIY had a chance to try and clean it yet? what is is soluble in?
 
SWIM'll have to retract that last statement as his latest yield proved hefty enough for experimentation to begin. SWIM managed to pull 600mg from some leftover limonene (from his very first set of pulls.... Never discard limonene, try different ways of salting from it. If it's completely exhausted, save it for distillation).

There may have been some acetic acid in this, but not enough to cause a noticeable smell, at all. It scraped up much easier than his first 200mg (possibly due to not being spread as thin, or possibly acetic acid contamination), like soft sand, rather than fine dust. It's mostly the same consistency as the first pull though:sticky like brown sugar, but not gummy like the acetate.

The community will probably soon come to realize how large of a contribution PlainCoil has made here. SWIM certainly owes him thanks. This method seems to represent the middle ground between the HCl and acetate method, but with the distinct advantage of being fume-free. SWIM can't wait to bio-assay!

SWIM may yet get around to experimenting with HCl, but this development has certainly put that on the back burner for the time being.
 

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yeah!

SWIM can't wait til his limo comes in so he can experiment further as well.

I wonder what kind of dosage all these people I don't know are looking at with carbonate.

Like SWIM said, his girlfriend felt noticeable effects from <100mg about five hours after ingestion, tapering quickly into sleep.
 
Carbonated water is something often overlooked as a source of acid. Carbonic acid is a very weak acid and is only strong enough to salt certain alkaloids.

From what I understand, bufotenine has nearly the same high pKa as mescaline, so this should probably work for bufotenine as well. You might be able to salt bufotenine carbonate out of DCM using carbonated water, and because carbonic acid is so weak, it might only salt out bufotenine and leave the impurities behind.

The only drawback I see to this method is that pressure is formed when you shake carbonated water. That means you need to be careful or you might end up with a big bubbly mess.

I’m very curious how much carbonic acid 1 cup of average carbonated water has. Is it more than enough to salt 1 gram?
 
A rather small comment but worth looking into :

Dry ice (frozen solid CO2) can be easily found and used to carbonate water.I do not know how much carbonic acid carbonated water can contain ,but couldnt a dry ice be used to supply more carbonic acid to the water than carbonated water could hold?Think of it as releasing CO2 which gets dissolved in water ,reacts with the compound to form the salt ,and continuously more CO2 is being released to replace the reacted carbonic acid in the water.

Also, could CO2 be used as for example HCl is used in gasing if the solvent is not anydrous,so carbonic acid can form and react?
 
I have been thinking about CO2 gassing and posted about it in the other thread.
So I thought if my friend has large amounts of compressed CO2 and some old salted out limonene he should give it a go.

A gas supply was rigged from the bottle and bubbled into 500 ml of limonene for about an hour.
Limonene was checked no change.

30 ml of DH2O was added and bubbled for 1 hour. The gassing mixed the water and limonene really well with lots of small water bubbles.
Second 500 ml gassed the same way.
Water was separated from the first 500 ml and evaporated.
100 to 150 mg was scraped up much the same as photos of seltzer salting with one big difference it had a GREEN tinge. :shock:

This is when my friend realized how stupid he really is in his rush to try this out he needed a pipe to place in the limonene and in his brain dead state he grabbed COPPER. :oops:
Ok lesson number 1: Limonene and CO2 react with copper pipe drawing a contaminant into solution

So my friend now knows that CO2 and DH2O will salt something but he is unable to say what.
I should make the idiot eat it for wasting 1 litre of limonene. :twisted:

Cheers Got
 
Very interesting experiment GoOnThen, as you describe it propably the green tinge could be a copper oxide. Do you think you will repeat the experiment with better suited tubbing and propably a limonen stock that is not exausted of the alkaloids (did i understand correctly that the majority of the alkaloids were already salted out?)?

What like putting the limonene pull in a soda stream thing... like what they use for carbonating drinks?
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Ah i dont know if thats how they carbonate drinks ,but it could work. Another idea would be using something akin to the "ghetto gasser" and fill it with dry ice and some hot water. This will give of CO2 in gaseous form , and propably supply also moisture in the solvent.

Another idea would be putting the water in a vessel adding dry ice and pouring the solvent over it or adding dry ice in the limonene as it is without water if its not anhydrous.
 
How about a soda stream machine?

Put the limo in the vessel and add half a cup of water.

Then start compressing

It would certainly be the most novel use of a soda stream You'll ever see :)
 
SWIM obtained 850mg more from his recent extraction (1050mg total of mescaline carbonate plus 600mg from an older extraction, and 1200mg total of mescaline acetate). There is a definite difference between the salt he's rendered from his recent extraction and that he recently rendered from old extractions. His first and third carbonate attempts were very fine and powdery crystals, while his second was like wet sand. In his test-tube, they form darker and lighter colored layers. SWIM believes that some glacial acetic acid got into the second salting, but this made the salt a bit easier to handle. Perhaps adding a bit of vinegar to every carbonate pull could be beneficial, simply for that reason. SWIM wishes he hadn't decided to store them in the same container so that he could more easily determine the difference in effects between the two.

SWIM would like to see what happens after completely salting with seltzer and than switching to vinegar; to see whether one could isolate most of the active impurities in that way. But would the seltzer begin to yield freebase impurities after a time?
 
antichode said:
How about a soda stream machine?

Put the limo in the vessel and add half a cup of water.

Then start compressing

It would certainly be the most novel use of a soda stream You'll ever see :)
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I love you for this
 
So has anyone (SWIY) tried using straight carbonated water yet, completely eliminating the vinegar? I heard someone's girlfriend gobbled up some mescaline carbonate and it took nearly 5 hours for effects to be felt! That seems like a very long wait; is this normal for SWIY's gf, or is it possible that the carbonate takes that long to break down and be fully absorbed? SWIM also wonders how much carbonated water needs to be used when pulling? Anyone else had a chance to bio-assay yet? Oh yeah, a pic is worth a thousand words; thank you Fati!
 
SWIM wouldn't worry much about the 5 hour onset. It was a dose of less than 100mg.

It does seem that it breaks down slower, but the dosage would still be consistent with mesc HCL, probably.
 
That's interesting.

SWIM found that mescaline HCl absorbs more slowly than mescaline acetate. It seems like mescaline carbonate absorbs even slower than mescaline HCl. I wonder why?
 
SWIM is proceeding with ron's tek right now using p torch, and seltzer water instead of vinegar.

It seems to be working great. SWIM has been using more seltzer water than he would vinegar, so it is taking a bit longer to evaporate, but the results are very pretty.

SWIM is looking at around 800mg of yellow-white crystals so far.

I think everyone would appreciate some bioassays, so I will get back when SWIM has done some more research.
 
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