InfinitysMinute
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Schizophrenia and psychedelics, particularly DMT
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zedwings
Rising Star
You may get a lot of people jumping down your throat here telling you it's a terrible idea, but if you both concentrate on ensuring the setting is safe and comfortable, then it may be a helpful experience. Terence McKenna has some interesting views on mental illness. He laments how we react to mental illness
In the west with shutting these people away from society or telling them they are "broken". In tribal communities, schizophrenics are seen to be gifted and told they are special. They are even revered in the community. A lot of people hear "voices" on dmt. Perhaps, as McKenna suggests, schizophrenics have brains that are more sensitive and perpetually "tuned in" to the realm we are so in awe of.
I would say this, presumably your gf is being treated for her schizophrenia. Take a note of her medication and make sure there are no negative interactions with dmt. Anti-psychotics are routinely prescribed to treat schizophrenia. In my personal experience these are safe to take with dmt, but they do negate the effect somewhat.
If your gf wants to try, start small. Good luck!
In the west with shutting these people away from society or telling them they are "broken". In tribal communities, schizophrenics are seen to be gifted and told they are special. They are even revered in the community. A lot of people hear "voices" on dmt. Perhaps, as McKenna suggests, schizophrenics have brains that are more sensitive and perpetually "tuned in" to the realm we are so in awe of.
I would say this, presumably your gf is being treated for her schizophrenia. Take a note of her medication and make sure there are no negative interactions with dmt. Anti-psychotics are routinely prescribed to treat schizophrenia. In my personal experience these are safe to take with dmt, but they do negate the effect somewhat.
If your gf wants to try, start small. Good luck!
SeekerOfTruths
Rising Star
A lot of anti-psychotic medications may suppress the effects of DMT.
It's hard to say exactly how she will react to it. It could cause her to go into a full out psychotic episode, it could be beneficial. I'd agree with zedwings, start small. It's also a good idea that you are going to research what she is on.
In my opinion it'd be wise to make sure that you are in a safe calm place, and that if anything goes wrong you are comfortable getting her to the hospital if something terrible would happen.
Stay safe, and update us what she was on/how it goes, or why you decided against it, could be useful for other people in the future!
It's hard to say exactly how she will react to it. It could cause her to go into a full out psychotic episode, it could be beneficial. I'd agree with zedwings, start small. It's also a good idea that you are going to research what she is on.
In my opinion it'd be wise to make sure that you are in a safe calm place, and that if anything goes wrong you are comfortable getting her to the hospital if something terrible would happen.
Stay safe, and update us what she was on/how it goes, or why you decided against it, could be useful for other people in the future!
mescaline-man
Rising Star
*
arcanum
Rising Star
There have been clinical trials in the past on schizophrenics, who were subject to varying doses of DMT. I think most of them didn't enjoy it, but were able in most cases able to clearly differentiate the experience from the hallucinations they experienced from their illness.
Interestingly the experiences also involved Aliens, Dwarfs, elves etc.
Remember , that was a clinical setting, unpredictable behaviour is to be expected from schizophrenics, unpredicatable experiences are part and parcel of the DMT trip for anyone. So beware.....
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n2/full/1300882a.html
Interestingly the experiences also involved Aliens, Dwarfs, elves etc.
Remember , that was a clinical setting, unpredictable behaviour is to be expected from schizophrenics, unpredicatable experiences are part and parcel of the DMT trip for anyone. So beware.....
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n2/full/1300882a.html
My friend is very schizophrenic, talks openly about and to his spirits as if they were his conscience. I have a feeling that DMT gives him some temporary solitude within his imagination or at least unifies the energies within. He likes to use it more than anyone I've seen. He's more ritualistic and dedicated in his approach than even I am, and I hope that's paying off for him. Usually when I ask him to describe his trip to me it's pretty incomprehensible. It's something we all struggle with, I think. DMT is a tool for all
SentientBeing
Rising Star
Just adding to what Zedwings said, I just read an article that was saying illnesses like schizophrenia are the result of a failing attempt by an entity from the spirit realm to align themselves with the person to become one with them and help to relay some kind message or healing power. So to deal with this, the shaman(s) will hold a ritual in which they help to align the two energies (I'm thinking DMT in a safe setting would come very close to a ritual to help align the two energies).
Can you link this article? This claim would go against many years of medical research and, imo, is pure fantasy. What if the entities do not exist? Then you are left with it being a chemical or mental imbalance needing medical attention - not aligning energies, whatever that means.SentientBeing said:
SentientBeing
Rising Star
InfinitysMinute, here is something that might be of help.
SentientBeing
Rising Star
a1pha said:
The Shamanic View of Mental Illness
by Stephanie Marohn (featuring Malidoma Patrice Somé)
(Excerpted from The Natural Medicine Guide to Schizophrenia,
pages 178-189, or The Natural Medicine Guide to Bi-polar Disorder)
If you are really that interested you can find it.
Korey
Rising Star
I'd say the true danger would be DMT's possible negative interaction with whatever medication she may be on.
UghSentientBeing said:
:thumb_dow It is commonly accepted within modern anthropology, that despite older models which claimed that people labelled as schizophrenic within Western societies would have been shamans in non-Western societies, that schizophrenia is, in fact, recognized globally as a mental illness. Here is a paper that touches on that from an award-winning Anthropologist: Hallucinations and Sensory Overrides.
This Marohn woman is not a researcher and spouts all kinds of new-agey crap on her website. Her claims are not supported by the vast body of anthropological literature on the topic of schizophrenia or mental illness in general and her research and credentials are seriously lacking.
SentientBeing
Rising Star
SnozzleBerry said:UghSentientBeing said:
It is commonly accepted within modern anthropology, that despite older models which claimed that people labelled as schizophrenic within Western societies would have been shamans in non-Western societies, that schizophrenia is, in fact, recognized globally as a mental illness. Here is a paper that touches on that from an award-winning Anthropologist: Hallucinations and Sensory Overrides.
This Marohn woman is not a researcher and spouts all kinds of new-agey crap on her website. Her claims are not supported by the vast body of anthropological literature on the topic of schizophrenia or mental illness in general and her research and credentials are seriously lacking.
"IN CONCLUSION
The anthropological evidence suggests that
hallucinations are shaped by learning in at
least two ways. People acquire specific representations
about mind from their local social
world, and people (particularly in spiritual pursuits)
are encouraged to use their minds in specific
ways. These two kinds of learning can affect
even the most basic domains of mental
experience. Ultimately, this learning-centered
approach may have something to teach us
about the pathways and trajectories of psychotic
illness."
That is not the only part I read but I feel as though it sums it up pretty good. Basically what I learned from reading that is that we still have no idea and not nearly enough evidence to prove this argument one way or the other. My opinion is that non-western cultures are so different from this western culture we have embraced that mental illnesses really can't be compared. If setting and social values do play a role in mental illness then we are just too far apart in our cultures to make any kind of connections. Thank you for that article, it was very well written and I did learn from it. Probably mostly I learned that I may very well be able to be diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or psychosis. lol
:roll:SentientBeing said:
Sounds like you didn't actually read the article, but instead, just quoted the conclusion (especially considering your disclaimer about how much you read and the fact that your conclusion directly contradicts what she states in the article
). If you're feeling that you summed it up "pretty good" and it still supports your claim, I'd posit it's because you didn't read the relevant passages. Here they are:I recently had a friend who is schizophrenic who took some particularly strong LSD and got fairly worse. That said, he also did not have respect for the chemcal and just ate it whenever he felt like it over the course of a week without trying to integrate any of it. Also there may be a difference in interaction between that and DMT with schizophrenics. If She decide to take some just be cautious and respectful of the experience as always.
naepius
Rising Star
arcanum said:
I have always been skeptical of some of the widely-reported effects observed from clinical DMT trials as being those that are the norm. I picture myself in a hospital room, with an IV in my arm, a doctor and nurse sitting by me wearing glasses/stethoscope/various medical instruments, and a very sterile smelling and sounding environment.
Then I picture my own setting: lying in my comfortable bed, moonlit, sounds of the breeze through leaves and crickets chirping flowing through windows on three sides of the room, infused with scents of lavender and mint, and one or both of my cats as my only company.
Then I feel sad for many of those people. Many of them would not have been able to experience what they rightfully should have.
Keep this is mind InfinitysMinute. Make sure the set and setting is one of her choosing that closely fits where she feels most at peace. I get anxiety attacks and auditory hallucinations in stressful situations and environments, and can tell you that even the most safe environment to be in from a physical health perspective can feel anything but that.
I like Icon's way of putting it: "some temporary solitude within his imagination". That's what it feels like sometimes. Other times when the breakthrough is timed just right, I perceive the spirals that go beyond my own imagination for infinity, and the breaks in reality that creep in day-to-day seem like an ion within a drop of water. It's even given me recall of one particular deep memory that is the source of several seemingly separate auditory hallucinations I've experienced throughout my life. It turns out they're all connected to the same event - I interpret it as my subconscious fracturing the sounds of the event into different memories that would creep out seemingly without reason in times of either extreme stress or comfortable solitude.
Maybe this woman whose path you've crossed is not yet prepared to perhaps piece together and relive when realities began to fracture for her. What I consider to be the best imaginable result to be had is less about the experience itself than it is about one's readiness to have that experience.
My daughter's mother has decided she will try DMT. The right time will come, and I find myself in your shoes because she suffers from Grand Mall seizures not attributable to Epilepsy. Through merely talking to her and relating my way of describing various alternate states of consciousness, I've found that she experiences a very powerful, sudden dissociative state right before the seizure and memory loss kicks in. The more clearly I was able to remember and relate my own dissociative states, the more she would feel the setting and begin to sense the effects of an oncoming seizure. Once she even had a brief two or three second Parietal seizure as I was relating what a call DXM's version of a K-Hole. Not sure why this little side-ramble seemed pertinent, but that's nothing new =)
If you are hoping for her to have a healing experience, I am of the opinion it will not happen in the absence of a natural Harmala source to potentiate the DMT. Vaporizing is the safest route in terms of length of what might turn out to be a less than pleasant experience as well. It's impossible to speculate if being with her would actually help or disrupt the experience. It's possible to trip-sit in a way that does not cause any sensory input and is worthy of consideration.
Word of caution: it does worry me that you are considering giving this woman DMT before you are even aware of how she currently treats her condition. Please take that with a grain of salt and not as a judgment. It's often said that one is found by DMT and not vice versa, and you are in essence possibly playing around with that order of things for her. Not being told of negative experiences should not be proof they have not happened, regardless if she's nonchalantly said they haven't. You admit you haven't been seeing this woman long. That is not the par for course in terms of reaching deeply personal disclosure. Her psychiatrist has probably literally ordered her to inform romantic acquaintances of her condition after a certain period of time as a mental health necessity. He/she probably does not tell her to be so indiscreet with traumatic experiences exacerbated by her condition.
I am of the opinion that no, DMT is not a terrible idea for someone with schizophrenic symptoms. I do get the impression, though, that it might be considered in a less than optimal way in this case. I get a bad vibe by the implication that you will be doing all of the research and she will simply be doing the DMT, and that the extent of that research is Google and then this thread. Have you mentioned to her what it is you are considering offering to her? Has she asked to try it? I made it a point to never ask my daughter's mother outright if she wanted to. I made absolutely sure that door was opened by her.
I would hope that this woman first expressed interest before you brought the matter here. From what I've read, my intuition tells me this is not the case. It's been wrong before, so I find myself apologizing again in case my intention is ill taken. It's times like these I really can't help but to over-think/over-analyze because you're speaking of a mentally ill person's mental health in terms of optimism at what might be positive side-effects. If it was she asking us in her own words through expression of her own worries, my final word would be decidedly different and on a much more positive note.
SentientBeing
Rising Star
SnozzleBerry said::roll:SentientBeing said:
Sounds like you didn't actually read the article, but instead, just quoted the conclusion (especially considering your disclaimer about how much you read and the fact that your conclusion directly contradicts what she states in the article
Sounds to me like you only read, saw, and ingested what you wanted to from this article instead of reading the entire thing with an open mind in all parts. Remember all of these sections were taken from the article you referenced in an attempt to prove me wrong. Like I said before, this article is basically saying that the culture you are raised in and what is generally accepted as well as what surrounds you definitely play a role in what constitutes as a pychotic illness. A city and a village in the forest that still utilizes natural medicine and healing from shamanism are just too different to compare mental illnesses directly. We just do not have enough evidence one way or the other to fully prove either of our arguments. Here are the excerpts from the article you seem to have forgotten.
"Within these bodily or temperamental constraints,
what we can call the “cultural invitation”
shapes a good deal about whether people
experience hallucinations and the way they
experience them. We have known for a long
time that the conditions under which someone
is expected to experience a vision are socially
specific: fasting versus not fasting, prior to the
hunt or after the hunt, and so forth. Among
Plains Indians, the expected conditions varied
from group to group (Benedict 1922).
More recent research suggests that expectation
may actually generate the nonpathological
unusual sensory phenomena I am calling sensory overrides.
~
His work on
Catholic Spain makes two compelling points:
first, that visions and other sensory experiences
are common and often a source of intense satisfaction,
and second, that what we know about
visions and their visionaries is strictly controlled
by prevailing notions about who can be believed
and what can be seen and heard according to the
religious system and its authority, although a vision
may also serve to mobilize people against
authority (Christian 1998, p. 107; 1987; see also
De La Cruz 2009, Shenoda 2010).
~
More recent research allows us to develop
this general claim about cultural invitation
into a specific theory: that the particular
dimensions of the way mind is imagined in
any society—what one might call that society’s
“theory of mind”—will shape the incidence and
modality of sensory overrides and psychotic
hallucinations. Although the term theory
of mind has a distinct disciplinary meaning
within developmental psychology, I use it
here to refer to the way in which perception,
intention, and inference are culturally imagined.
~
These cultural differences seem to be
reflected in the sensory modes of hallucination
experience that people report; although again
the cultural invitation interacts with the
biological constraint. In a study of more than
1000 patients with schizophrenia from Austria,
Lithuania, Poland, Georgia, Ghana, Nigeria,
and Pakistan, subjects in all countries reported
experiencing auditory hallucinations more
often than hallucinations in any other sensory
modality. In all countries, visual hallucinations
were the next most frequently experienced.
Yet, the rates of these experiences differed
substantially, and these differences appear to
reflect culture and not biology.
~
It is more difficult to demonstrate definitively
that cultural invitation shapes the sensory
modality of sensory overrides because the anthropologists
describing them do not have
epidemiological evidence about their rates.
However, the ethnographic and historical material
do largely support the role of the cultural
invitation.
~
In addition to these dimensions of the cultural
imagination of mind, some categories of
hallucination-like phenomena seem biopsychologically
specific but rise and fall in frequency,
depending on whether they are culturally cultivated,
for example, sleep paralysis (Ness 1978,
Hufford 1982, Hinton et al. 2005).
~
Training is also more or less explicitly described
in the development of the capacity for
spirit possession, and here, too, the early stages
of going in to trance may be associated with
unusual sensory experience (e.g., Halliburton
2005). In discussing spirit mediums in the Niger
(Masquelier 2002) says,
In most cases, initial suffering is gradually replaced
by tolerance and benevolence as both
the spirit and the host learn to accommodate
each other. Initiation (gyara) into bori clearly
opens up the channels of communication between
themedium and the spirit, but paradoxically,
much of the knowledge about herbs that
healers learn from the mutanen daji (“people
of the bush,” spirits) is often divulged during
the early period of illness and torment when
novice hosts occasionally wander aimlessly in
the bush and suffer from hallucinations. (p. 63)
~
Another answer is that hallucinations become
symptoms when they are socially unintelligible
(Hwang et al. 2007, Saavedra 2009)."
I apologize for my statement about how much you read...clearly you did read the paper. However, you are conflating the passages on "sensory overrides" and "psychosis" with the old anthropological models that she explicitly states are bunk.
All of the passages you have quoted are presented in opposition to the "romantic idea that people diagnosed with schizophrenia in the West would be identified as shamans, and not as being sick, in non-Western societies" and the fact that "Schizophrenia...[which manifests as] this pattern of hearing distressing voices appears to be universal and recognized as illness everywhere." The passages you present range everywhere from commentary on sensory overrides to the culturally-influenced experiences of certain psychoses and do not address schizophrenia as universally-recognized mental illness.
What she presents is different from stating that culture determines what psychosis is. Look at the numbers on schizophrenia she provides...auditory hallucinations rank #1 cross-culturally...it is only the tertiary symptoms that appear to break down along cultural rather than bio-physiological lines.
In fact, the article even discusses that in cases of psychosis, culture affects how the psychosis is experienced...but it is still recognized as psychosis.
To reiterate: "Schizophrenia...is recognized as illness everywhere." and "Schizophrenia (or serious psychotic disorder) is identified as an illness in all societies."
All of the passages you have quoted are presented in opposition to the "romantic idea that people diagnosed with schizophrenia in the West would be identified as shamans, and not as being sick, in non-Western societies" and the fact that "Schizophrenia...[which manifests as] this pattern of hearing distressing voices appears to be universal and recognized as illness everywhere." The passages you present range everywhere from commentary on sensory overrides to the culturally-influenced experiences of certain psychoses and do not address schizophrenia as universally-recognized mental illness.
What she presents is different from stating that culture determines what psychosis is. Look at the numbers on schizophrenia she provides...auditory hallucinations rank #1 cross-culturally...it is only the tertiary symptoms that appear to break down along cultural rather than bio-physiological lines.
In fact, the article even discusses that in cases of psychosis, culture affects how the psychosis is experienced...but it is still recognized as psychosis.
To reiterate: "Schizophrenia...is recognized as illness everywhere." and "Schizophrenia (or serious psychotic disorder) is identified as an illness in all societies."
SentientBeing
Rising Star
SnozzleBerry said:
All I'm trying to say is that our cultures are too different to directly compare mental illness between the two. That is not saying that it does not exist throughout the world but rather that cultures handle it very differently and we simply do not know which methods of treatment are more effective so it is my personal opinion that cultures that are thousands of years old have more solid and effective treatments than our culture which is only a couple hundred years old. (I realize I have strayed away from my original argument but after reading the evidence that you put forth I feel as though my original argument can not be proven and is mere opinion)
Also on a side note. I apologize if I might be coming across as more negatively arguing than having a discussion with you. That is not my intentions.
It's all good...likewise, I feel that some of my words may have been unnecessarily harsh and my assumption that you had not read the article would have certainly irked me to a large degree were the positions reversed.SentientBeing said:
With regards to your new statement...I think I agree with the general thrust of it, and while I don't feel that I personally have enough knowledge to agree or disagree unequivocally, it certainly seems like a fairly "intuitive" (not sure what word I really want here) point that fits with some of the points made in the article...and rings much stronger with culturally conditioned illness, such as "susto". I don't know that I necessarily agree with the statement on cultural comparisons (it is, after all, the basis for much anthropological work) but we don't have to agree on everything and I respect your opinion.
Thanks for sticking it out to hash out and rehash these points...flat text can be rather detrimental to lining-up/engaging disparate viewpoints.
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