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Self treating depression with tryptamines- thoughts?

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null24 said:
I haven't tripped since I've been off the 'done, nor since I became ex-homeless. Give me some advice, folks, does anyone at all relate to any of this and can give some good info on their experience?

Im in a similar state my friend ill try to write a little about my view

even if i make no sense at all writeing this will help me understand to a little better

So just know that by opening this subject u are helping more then yourself

I thank you.



Depression .. i know it all so well ..

What causes it ? where does it come from ?

Id say its root is in our consiousnes not accepting our current reality well ..

and trying hard to adapt into something that is not very natural to us ..

the routines created from the possibilities where u live ..

are not 100% ur choises but more of an choise from options that exist and forced to choose from in order to cooperate with the surronding *trip*

Just a note *im crazy on papers dont listen to me *

Not being able to jump into trip in the area we live is a bit of :thumb_dow

the trips one can choose from in a modern society are way more then depressing for one who can think
about hes true wishes

That shows of Fear existing in the area we are in ..

This is a curse but also a gift

Depression is a sign from ur mind that you are not in the right place

tryin to fight it with chems to blind urself from the truth something is wrong is not the way

it could easily explode one day those sunglasses that the chems provide

the suicide wall thats a rough place ...

if u go there u know that something has to be done and this cannot be overlooked and put aside

theres got to be some kind of action that will take u far from that place

since uve been there u know that theres should be nothing at all keeping u from walking any road u can think of away from there

nothing is more powerful then standing there leaning back on it ..
realising that from there u can walk many diffrent roads without fear

where will u walk ?

there are many kind of roads all have their problems

try to see what kind of problems will occoure where

ending up on the side of the road for the night -1
noise,
noise,
wakeup go away from here
,noise,noise.

ending up on the sea for the night +1
sand-not to bad for a sleep
skies
no noise
free to stay all u like

im not saying those are options

im saying look what diffrent area's problems could end up like

what kind of state can u imagine living in nirvana?

if id take now a psycadelic entheogen and walk around in the surronding where i live

thats not really a good thing to do should i go to an isolated place for the experience

sometimes thats true

but finding a place u can experience existnce on a higher shift

is importent to ..

just for realisation of the power of the universe while on that state

so why not live in a place like that for the daily state to ..

if i need to get away to experience another state of mind

thats another sign to me like depression was a sign that i need to change something


Good sunglasses i use insted of the SSRI chems


agreeing to a point in the future where u will be some where else completly

where u will have many doors to look into

is a good painkiller
 
from what i saw in experiment the 90s, and coming from a clinical psychology perspective,
i've seen evidence for Salvia divinorum in potential 'medium term' treatment of depression,
after a few administrations..

in fact, it's what i generally concluded the Salvia was good for (regardless of effects) ..
i hope more is done with this area of research..
a 'peak experience' inducing substance like DMT (which is more 'kundalinic', if you like) is not i think so suited to ongoing depression, as others here have suggested

good luck with which method you choose null24..
 
When I was younger I suffered from mild depression, however after my first DMT breakthrough it vanished completely, I've also become a far more positive and happy person in general, and have a renewed love for this life, though the experiance itself was fairly traumatic, it was high dose, and I was not trying to cure anything, I was just curious, and incidentally cured my depression, I also doubt that you could treat depression with high dose DMT, but in my case it worked.

--------

Sorry if this goes off topic, but there was a tryptamine compound marketed as an anti-depressant...alpha-ethyl-tryptamine.

( AET was also the center of a drug analogue court case in Denver involving a dealer selling the compound as MDMA)

(This compound also has potential as an aide to withdrawal for opioid addicts)


This base, a-ET or etryptamine, was a promising anti-depressant, explored clinically as the acetate salt by Upjohn under the name of Monase. Its central stimulant activity is probably not due to its monoamineoxidase inhibition activity, but appears to stem from its structural relationship to the indolic psychedelics. It was withdrawn from potential commercial use with the appearance of an unacceptable incidence of a medical condition known as agranulocytosis, but the extra mural research into its action, among the lay population, goes on.

One property has been mentioned more than once in anecdotal reports. It appears to serve well, with short term dosage regimens, as an effective tool in kicking dependency on opiates. In chronic use, there is a rather rapid tolerance built up over four or five days, that allows a dosage escalation to a daily load of a gram or more. There might be some discomfort such as sores in the softer tissues of the mouth, but apparently the withdrawal from heroin is easy and effective. Here is a potential tool in addiction treatment that might warrant closer investigation. -shulgin; TIHKAL

What happened in a trial in Denver? A few years ago a young man discovered that the Aldrich Chemical Company offered alpha-ethyltryptamine acetate as a fine chemical. He could buy it in 100g quantities, and package it in 150 milligram capsules to be sold to the street trade as Ecstasy, or MDMA. He could and he did. His actions came to the attention of Law Enforcement, and an opinion was obtained from a DEA chemist that a-ET was not an analogue substance. So the prosecutor decided against pressing charges. But not every one agreed with this not-analogue opinion.

So the chemist solicited the thoughts of his professional colleagues and the answers cam back with as many no's as yes's. The no's were from those who reasoned objectively (scientific, compare the structures) and the yes's were from those who reasoned subjectively (abuse potential, compare the action).

The adventurous a-ET peddler continued, and was again brought to task. The analytical duties went to another chemist, and charges were finally brought under the Analogue Drug Bill. But the earlier opinion was in the record, and the first chemist was brought in by the defense to present these findings at the trial. Clearly there was uncertainty if this was an analogue of anything that was scheduled. The research toxicologist for the home-office of the DEA gave testimony that it was, without question, an analogue. But on cross examination, he was asked just how many times, and for how many different drugs, he had been asked that same question, as an expert witness at a criminal trial. Perhaps twelve, he said. And how many times had he offered the conclusion that the proposed compound had been an analogue of a scheduled drug? In every case. The judge decided that there were some conflicting opinions here, amongst the experts, and dismissed the charges. The defendant was given the warning that this kind of leniency was not common and told to behave himself in the future

-eg
 
This video seems relevant:

"DMT - a catalyst for moving beyond depression". It was a presentation at the UK Psychedelic Society.

Apologies for not being able to describe it more, I don't have much time at the moment, but hopefully it will prove interesting. My partner (who is actively considering using DMT herself to treat her depression) and I really enjoyed it.
 
I think that one of the problems with salvia for depression is that its duration is rather short. I imagine that a longer therapy session would be more helpful.

Perhaps one of the alkoxymethyl ethers of Salvinorin B would be a more effective treatment, but they've barely been investigated.
 
BringsUsTogether said:
I think that one of the problems with salvia for depression is that its duration is rather short. I imagine that a longer therapy session would be more helpful.

Perhaps one of the alkoxymethyl ethers of Salvinorin B would be a more effective treatment, but they've barely been investigated.
With chewed Salvia you get about an hour or more for a ceremony. Much better then when smoked.

Many people report good results for easing depression using doses that arent even psychedelic though - just chewing smaller amounts. It has great anti-depressant properties that last long after the plant duration.
 
yeah, in 'sub-entheogenic' doses, Salvia divinorum can be chewed fairly regularly as a depression medication, without un-desirable side-effects..

but also, regardless of duration, slightly larger doses (chewed, as traditional, or smoked), following the experience seem to have a longer lasting 're-set' effect on people with long term depression's systems, and seem to regulate mood..

i've seen mood regulation also in animals, namely a billy goat who got off his lead and ate a salvia plant...went from headbutting nuisance to calm and responsive to behaviour requests :)
 
anne halonium said:
id suggest there is always gonna be a added buzzkill / depression,
just based on the fact were all rogues in a drug war zone....
...sometimes, realism is enough to be depressing.
we remain calm and carry on though.

This^^^^

We treat quite a few depressed patients at our acupuncture clinic each year (I've dealt with it off & on for decades myself) & one point that I usually always make to them is that, considering the time & culture that we're living in presently, if you're not at least somewhat depressed at least some of the time then there is definitely something wrong with you for sure. That usually will elicit a smile that says, "oh, you get it? Wow."

We live in a psychotic, neurotic culture...Depression, in my not-so-humble opinion, is one of a handful of what I consider to be "normal" responses to said culture.

My love goes out to you null...:love:

May you find peace in your heart.:)
 
Thanks y'all for your continued input, definitely not just for my sake but for the benefit of the many others with these questions.

Pihuachenyi- I'll have to check that out when I get to a free wifi spot! Thanks!:d

Reflecting what Jamie, travsha, and nen have said, it's more the long term or medium benefit effects from salvia that are what I'm after.

I'm staying away from DMT and lightning breakthroughs ATM. I think I've settled on psilocybin to test here... I know I talked about DMT earlier but... I'm scared. Lol. Maybe once I've dipped my feet in the psilo...
 
nen888 said:
i've seen mood regulation also in animals, namely a billy goat who got off his lead and ate a salvia plant...went from headbutting nuisance to calm and responsive to behaviour requests :)

This seems like an interesting idea for a study. Give aggressive/depressed animals salvia and see if and how they change their behavior.
 
Since the original post, I've been working pretty hard to pull myself out of the initial depressive phase that prompted the OP. I don't know if it's due to sheer force of will or on the other hand simply the vagaries of fluctuating neurochemistry, but I did start to feel better.

Which is a good thing. Shortly after posting this a very dear friend passed awaysuddenly, tragically and unexpectedly. It was a brutal shock, if I was still in a deep depression, don't think I would've been able to handle it nor the responsibilities that came along with my friends death.

That said, through this tragedy I hit upon what appears to be a flat out cure: feline influence. Heidi (RIP) fostered a cat, which I adopted. I was a little worried about it, because Heidi had not had her very long and had told me that the cat was not very personable. That she like to hide from other people and it wasn't very much into being petted. But even after the trauma of having two strangers coming to her home, stuff are in a duffel bag and then drive her blind 50 miles north, to be deposited into a little RV, she doesn't seem to mind very much.

She stayed in the duffel bag for about six hours during which I just left her alone, but when she came out she was mewling for attention. She's been by my side since- sleeping with me in the bed, playing with the laser pointer and her plethora of toys, is eating, pissing, sleeping and crapping normally and I find myself with wearing a smile more so than I have in a while.

The day after I brought her home there was a small article in the New York Times about a new study on just that, the findings being that when depressed people interact with animals that stress hormones are reduced and production of endorphins increases and I must concur from my own findings; my cat is getting me high.

Of course in the back of my mind I think she's an incarnation of some great healer, and she is helping to remove some of the negative energy in this place, clearing the setting for a psychedelic experiment. For the benefit of the cat (and me), I did some serious spring cleaning in the yard be scrubbing it floor-to-ceiling, putting fresh flowers in it, setting up a couple altars and just making it a nice pleasant place to be. Now that that's done, I asked Satan Claws for some mushrooms and found them in my mailbox this morning. It's all goes well today now that I have a good set and setting as well as a sitter I believe the experiment will commence this weekend. Report coming soon...

»»EDIT»» my iPhone hates me, I don't know why my pictures come out sideways. She's talented but not that talented
 

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Have you considered trying brews or pharma rather than smoked spice null?

I have found that with what I use, which is somewhere between brew & pharma, rue extract + brewed MHRB, that you can start with low doses of DMT & feel things out without blasting yourself into a place you are not sure about. With the right dose things are gentle & yet very powerful. One has the option to dive deeper or to remain grounded.

I cannot say in your position if it will do what it does for me, but I have found using it as a therapy session really helps to alleviate some negative energy & feelings of depression. I have learned to work through some issues within my own mind & come to terms with them, accepting them & actively using the things i have learned to improve in areas of life that i see need work.

Also, nice little friend you have there 😁 During trips I find animals have the power to be immensely comforting beings.
It's as if they sense something occurring & protective instinct kicks in. They love snuggling up & showing affection.
I call my animals my spirit guardians. Always there to protect my vessel while I am away in hyperspace. I have yet to come back & not find a cat or dog lying next to me with a loving yet concerned look in their eyes.
 
Have you considered trying brews or pharma rather than smoked spice null?

Y'know, no, I haven't really considered that.

I have some ACRB and rue laying around, maybe I'll do a little experimenting. I've never done Aya or pharma, and will have to research dosing etc first, but yes, that's a good idea. And an option that has been staring me in the face.
 
I am so delighted to hear that you have a new feline friend null!!! :d

And very happy to hear that you cleaned up & cleared up your space. That ALWAYS helps depression & sets the tone for more psychedelic work.

What could be better? I'll tell you what could be better, cleaning/clearing a personal space AND an animal friend!!!

Truthfully, without all my animal & plant friends I would go stark-raving mad-depression mode & not come out of it...Seriously.

A lot of people look at my wife & I with a really wierd looks when we say we have 5 dogs & they're all rescues...Not to mention all the chickens (which, believe it or not, can make for mighty fine, personable pets; plus the eggs!!! Yum!!!!) & all my bonsai trees (40+ & growing) plus hundreds of plant friends & allies in pots & in the ground that give us joy & real meaning to live & love each & every day!

You are lucky null! And it makes me feel very good to tell you so!!!

Peace my friend, peace....
 
null24

My thoughts and my heart are with you... Life can get really tough and difficult at times but I get a sense that you have a remarkable amount of strength and courage my dear friend. The techniques and methods that have really carried me through some of the most trying times of my life have been practicing mindfulness and meditation, continuously cultivating and growing my connection with nature, getting involved with community orientated meditation gatherings and flow arts as well as trying my best to help others specifically children or animals in what ever small way I am able to.

Entheogens are incredibly powerful tools without a doubt, though I really feel its of the greatest importance to establish a foundation of connection, community, creativity and heart felt experiences. People who suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) have benefited from practicing mindfulness and mindfulness based stress reduction (MBSR) techniques.

Have you done some work with MDMA therapy? As for me personally my experiences with MDMA have been extremely valuable but I must urge you to source pure MDMA and if at all possible please test the MDMA using a Marquis reagent testing kit for safety reasons.

Opening the heart is certainly where its at, keep fighting the good fight.


Much Peace and Respect
 
Aegle said:
null24

My thoughts and my heart are with you... Life can get really tough and difficult at times but I get a sense that you have a remarkable amount of strength and courage my dear friend. The techniques and methods that have really carried me through some of the most trying times of my life have been practicing mindfulness and meditation, continuously cultivating and growing my connection with nature, getting involved with community orientated meditation gatherings and flow arts as well as trying my best to help others specifically children or animals in what ever small way I am able to.
Thank you for the kind words, though I don't think that strength or courage are things I have in abundance ; rather I feel it's just perseverance and a strong will to survive. I agree that community is perhaps the MOST valuable tool in the box. No man is an island. Peninsula, maybe , but...
:|

Have you done some work with MDMA therapy? As for me personally my experiences with MDMA have been extremely valuable but I must urge you to source pure MDMA and if at all possible please test the MDMA using a Marquis reagent testing kit for safety reasons.
I have not. I've played with it quite a but in my days of youthful hedonism but performing self-work with it is something I've yet to do. I do know of some practitioners working with it locally, and accessing it would be fairly simple, along with an experienced guide/sitter. When my finances are a little bit better, that's a step I would like to take.

Entheogens are incredibly powerful tools without a doubt...

Agreed. 😉
However, at this point in time I'm looking for something gentle and therapeutic. I just finished performing an extraction several weeks ago and have several grams of DMT laying around, I've never sat here and looked at it this long without actually using it, LOL it just isn't calling me though. I have been working with a Psilocybin micro dosing regimen (.5gram dry cubensis, 3-4X/week with 24-hr "spacers" between.) and it has been particularly effective. Mood stabilization and even elevation, as well as heightened productivity and creativity have been reliably observed.

On the days I do it, I just feel "dialed in"; that is, effective in areas I am sometimes lacking in. I feel little to no anxiety in social interaction, can connect words to thoughts and feelings easily, and have a sort of 'dispassionate' position, observing emotions like ripples in a pond-rising and falling away. So I have found it to be a very effective tool which I would recommend to anybody.

From what I have found effective in ameliorating the symptoms of clinical depression I could recommend the following – in no particular order, and not carved into stone:

• Community-other than this one, which I've said many many times before has been an invaluable aid, maintaining a presence and organizational role in a local group of practical psychedelic helps gives me a sense of purpose beyond the benefits of being part of the community.

• an animal/pet (something outside of myself). If I'm having a shite day or moment I can't go home and start cussing at the walls, there is someone else there who is very sensitive to that kind of thing and I don't want to make her fear me but rather know that I'm her stability. She keeps me in check.

• keeping notes that I can refer to, a simple gratitude list.

• staying busy – keeping out of my head through work. Creative efforts are another way of staying busy, but when depression hits that's the last thing that I do. So, I clean the trucks on the lot if there's nothing else to do. Rust never sleeps.

• and finally, the psychedelic aspect. Like I mentioned, the microdoseing has been particularly effective. I also regularly work with cannabis and occasionally will take an entheogenic dose of 'shrooms. I was just gifted with 40 pounds San Pedro cactus, and while I've never worked with mescaline, I'm excited that it came to me and for what is going to be a special, edifying and hopefully rewarding project.

From what I understand of mescaline, it's therapeutic potential can be similar to that of MDMA. I don't know if I'm just lumping it together in my head because they're both phens, or if that is an actual piece of information I gleaned from somewhere.

As always, much much love to all of you. I'm so happy and grateful to be a part of this community, and I hope that other people can be helped similarly to the way I have through these posts and the community as a whole.

Thank you

:love: :) :love:
 
I just wanted top add a little update top the thread.I've been pretty silent about my struggles,so thought it may be helpful to share.

The last year has been tough, the losses have come hard and heavy. Death has taken my very best friend,and both of my parents.

Grief is terrible. They say that it has stages,and that they are universal to all who undergo it,and that may be true. However,the way they manifest has no script. It depends on so many variables,and is as complex as the relationship that has been lost.

I've never dealt with such pain without using numbing drugs like heroin. All I can say is that doing so is helping me to get in better touch with the "real me" than ever before.

There's a lot that goes into the loss of one's parents. The relationships with my three older siblings which is estranged to say the least,complicates things too.

All this is too much to handle alone,and being fortunate to live in a state with socialized medicine,I've been able to access private talk therapy. My therapist works with EMDR, which I saw tremendously help my dear friend that no other treatment had worked with, and a new techniques called brain spotting. Both of these therapies aim to do the same thing that psychedelic therapy does:reframe events and traumas.

It's a little early to tell,but the therapy has given me some breakthroughs that I've been unable to achieve alone. So far,it has been a freeing experience. I look forward to continuing..

Combined with psychedelic journeys,which I have not done in a very long time due too poor set and setting circumstances,therapy-with a good worker who understands and accepts my world view,has been a good experience.

Along with that,I've found that adding a whole lot of structure has helped. I discovered how much being of service helps me feel worthy, and volunteering as a reading tutor with a organization that works with developmentally disabled and neuro-diverse adults has led me to discuss an aptitude for such work as well as a deep love and affection for the population and individuals we serve. I'm also working with a local church to open during the day to let people who are without homes to have a creative space to do art, combined with a writing program sponsored by a local non profit. This takes me out of me, which can be a shitty place 24/7 without break.

Self care also involves groups classes and meetings daily. DBT is like a miracle with its effective tools, going through anger management for the third time,it's starting to catch on, a couple recovery meetings and a closed men's process group round out my week.

I'm happy that the recovery community has finally started to move away from twelve steps and complete abstinence philosophies. Harm reduction is the new paradigm,and is far more acceptable and effective for me.

TLDR: death and grief suck, therapy combined with psychedelic work is a good idea, and my life does better with structure, and when I'm being if service.

I'll edit typos later...
 
Hey Null,

It is a truly awesome and inspiring thing to see you becoming so involved in therapy. It is the most important tool and the one that compliments all other healing tools to improve their effectiveness. A strong foundation in psychotherapy brings great healing on its own, and that foundation allows all the other healing experiences and tools to be as effective as possible in combating depression.

To heal from the trauma and depression you have experienced without pharmaceuticals is a remarkably brave and intense undertaking. It inspires me to read your posts and hear about all the different ways you have worked towards your healing. Regardless of wherever you currently are on your healing journey, it is obvious that you are an individual who possesses the strength, willingness, and hope that it takes to heal without pharmaceuticals. I've personally known many patients with depression and have studied the stories of countless others. You most certainly stand out as being a person who, without a doubt, has the capacity to get through this. The discovery you have made about the help you get by adding structure to your life is extremely important. This discovery is a defining quality among the people who have exceptional success in healing life-long depression.

It seems like you have keen a sense of understanding when psychedelics are a good tool to be actively using and when they are not needed. I hear you say that you haven't used psychedelics for a very long time due to poor set and setting. Consider that maybe you have avoided creating the appropriate set and setting for psychedelics in your life because on some level, you have known that these drugs are not meant to be part of your healing journey during this time. I think that those of us who use psychedelics for healing have a much keener sense of when we should use and when we should avoid psychedelics than we realize.

Psychedelics are extremely useful for one particular type of life challenge- this is big decision-making. Psychedelics come in very handy when we feel "stuck." Decisions that require great amounts of work and courage are so hard to make, especially when we are not completely sure that a decision is the right one at all. It sounds like you are doing a very good job at healing from your depression with the tools you have chosen to use right now. If you feel stuck, if you find your healing journey obstructed by the challenges of making a big decision, choosing a new path, or making difficult changes, I think psychedelics could be very useful to you. But until then, I hope you have faith and pride for the ways you have fought your depression without drugs. Therapy, groups, service, and other engagements are the things that will exercise your willingness, strengthen your commitment, and hone your skills that you will use moving forward on your healing journey.
 
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