shamanism thread..

[turtleman29]

In terms of what qualifies a true shaman, in traditional societies it is the other people who decide who is a true shaman. They would typically be chosen at a young age to have shown interest and would begin training with an existing shaman usually a family member but not always. They are a shaman when the tribe/culture recognizes that this person as such for valuable healing work or some other valuable miracle/spiritual work and had a good relationship with his teaching spirits.

In traditional cultures the practice of miracle is essential to the shamans reputation. If you have cured someone with an otherwise crippling or deadly condition usually that would be a miracle. Also Shamans would work to commit harm against their particular tribes enemies or families enemies, these could also be considered miracles, depending on whose side you were on I suppose.

So yes, going to the amazon and working with the cultures who have worked with these plants for thousands of years would have to be highly beneficial to anyone working with these plants on a regular basis. It is not necassary though, in our culture there is a lot of psychological dysfunction and I think just allowing the plants/chemicals do the work is enough. I'm sure it's possible for anyone to conduct miracles, the laws of quantum physics make it possible I suppose, but I have never seen one performed myself, have simply read of them.
Just my thoughts.

Peace and Love.

 

[Ginkgo]

Interesting and valuable thoughts, turtleman! I think it is important to add that for shamans, the healing of Ayahuasca and similar plant teachers are only a part of the whole game. These plant teachers open up connections to different spiritual worlds, and to interact with these spirits in a proper way to attain healing, is just as important as the plant's effects. Shamans will in most cases call upon their "army" of spirits before, under and after a ceremony. Even though some people might believe this is total bullshit, to the shaman it is real enough, and to me - that is what matters.

 

[hedcase]

I watched a really good Doc the other day called The Horse Boy.The story of a severely autistic boy how is taken to Mongolia to see many different Shaman..VERY worth the time to watch it.

 

[jamie]

cool..I will check that out for sure thanks!

 

[jamie]

In terms of what qualifies a true shaman, in traditional societies it is the other people who decide who is a true shaman. They would typically be chosen at a young age to have shown interest and would begin training with an existing shaman usually a family member but not always. They are a shaman when the tribe/culture recognizes that this person as such for valuable healing work or some other valuable miracle/spiritual work and had a good relationship with his teaching spirits.

In traditional cultures the practice of miracle is essential to the shamans reputation. If you have cured someone with an otherwise crippling or deadly condition usually that would be a miracle. Also Shamans would work to commit harm against their particular tribes enemies or families enemies, these could also be considered miracles, depending on whose side you were on I suppose.

So yes, going to the amazon and working with the cultures who have worked with these plants for thousands of years would have to be highly beneficial to anyone working with these plants on a regular basis. It is not necassary though, in our culture there is a lot of psychological dysfunction and I think just allowing the plants/chemicals do the work is enough. I'm sure it's possible for anyone to conduct miracles, the laws of quantum physics make it possible I suppose, but I have never seen one performed myself, have simply read of them.
Just my thoughts.

Peace and Love.

Yes you do make a good point about the culture choosing the shamans..In traditional setting the shaman has to be good for his/her word on what they practice or they dont really have any patients...

I think that we can learn alot from tradtional ayahuasca shamans, same with san pedro shamans, mushromm shamans etc..but not everything they do will translate over properly into western society..they have they're beliefs/tabboos etc and we have ours..so that needs to be concidered.

Trying to memorize an icaro from the jungle and sing it back in a ceremony for westerneres, not even knowing what it means for instance I dont think has the same power as it does within the cultural context it comes from..thats what I trying to get at. Better to create something new to fit the scenario.

 

[hedcase]

links to said doc.

Moviesforfree.tv

 

[jamie]

thanks dude! just watched the trailor looks really cool..my mom works with autistic children Im going to pass this on to her as well..thanks again!

 

[jamie]

Anyone interested in shamanism or evenjut humanity should see this film..it's really very beautiful..thanks again headcase..when he went up after the ceremony and hugged the other little mongolian boy and called him brother I was practically crying..so beautiful.

 

[cellux]

I once met a medicine man in my home town. He never wanted to be a shaman but became one, by participating in a car accident which propelled him out of his body and into the other world. At the end of an inner odyssey, he met some aliens who implanted a "healing device" into him (that's how he explained it to me when he saw that I would understand). Since that point on, he could feel the energies of others, identify their illnesses. Also he learned how to get into that other world by himself (without using drugs). He started to study the flora of the local forests and he found he could also identify the medicine herbs (perhaps saw their spirits or something). When I was talking to him about psychedelics, he said there were some herbs out there - still unidentified as such by science -, which are more potent than anything we presently know. But he didn't want to give out the secret.

I told this story because I think this is the most authentic way of becoming a shaman in our western culture. We are very prone to getting into ego-trips on this path. Even our attempts to become a shaman seem suspicious ( "when the disciple is ready, the master appears" ). I understand that there are people who feel the call. After all, wouldn't it be great to be a healer of humanity? I'd surely like to be a shaman. I feel predisposed to do that. But I'd have to heal myself first.

 

[hedcase]

Anyone interested in shamanism or evenjut humanity should see this film..it's really very beautiful..thanks again headcase..when he went up after the ceremony and hugged the other little mongolian boy and called him brother I was practically crying..so beautiful.

I thought it would be appreciated here..I won't lie I shed a few tears also.

 

[jamie]

I once met a medicine man in my home town. He never wanted to be a shaman but became one, by participating in a car accident which propelled him out of his body and into the other world. At the end of an inner odyssey, he met some aliens who implanted a "healing device" into him (that's how he explained it to me when he saw that I would understand). Since that point on, he could feel the energies of others, identify their illnesses. Also he learned how to get into that other world by himself (without using drugs). He started to study the flora of the local forests and he found he could also identify the medicine herbs (perhaps saw their spirits or something). When I was talking to him about psychedelics, he said there were some herbs out there - still unidentified as such by science -, which are more potent than anything we presently know. But he didn't want to give out the secret.

I told this story because I think this is the most authentic way of becoming a shaman in our western culture. We are very prone to getting into ego-trips on this path. Even our attempts to become a shaman seem suspicious ( "when the disciple is ready, the master appears" ). I understand that there are people who feel the call. After all, wouldn't it be great to be a healer of humanity? I'd surely like to be a shaman. I feel predisposed to do that. But I'd have to heal myself first.

Yes I agree..I dont really think one can attempt to be a shaman. Just taking psychedelics dont cut it..thats quite obvious, as tons of people have ingested them. These people usually have very unpleasant experinces sometime in life that seem to dissassiciate them from society to a certain level as well..I think alot of life-path shamans actaully get to know real suffering quite well..

I know a Native american shaman from the east coast of canada..people call him Hawk. He was down and out, homeless for years and lived in the woods in the city..I have alot of respect for what he does. Hes older and runs drumming workshops now and works as a carpenter..hes no longer homeless..but I know that he has gone through really shitty times. He does this fast every year or so where his goes into the woods and cits ina circle without food or water for 3 days and prays, i dont really know much of the details about it..but I know that he helps facilitate this for other people as well. I knew this other guy that did it with him, who was always claiming to be some sort of shaman..after it was over all he did was tell everyone how he did this ceremony and bragged about it non-stop, but I heard stories form others about how he really bitched and whined the whole time, and just got hammered after..

Hawk explained to me that this other guy was doing it for the wrong reasons..he was doing it for himself..for his ego..and that the real way this ritual was origionally to be approached was to do it for OTHERS..to always have the worlds sickness and everyones connection to the creator in mind..it's not a personal health/cleansing thing at all this fast..it's a self sacrifice.

The other guy did not get that. It was all about him and his "trip"..

 

[jamie]

Alot of people have all these romantic ideas about what shamanism is...they fall inlove with this idea of a perfect saint dancing around in a headdress or something...

Seriousily alot of people I have met that I would concider "shamanic" (whether they call themsleves shamans or not) are quite fucked up..even been in institutuions...they all have lots of problems and have been through really rough shit.

One they crawl out of that hole though they are usually quite wise, well rounded people.

The real thing that I think is important about shamanism is to really know misery and dispare, to basically befreind it..becasue you cannot work in the light if you have not first wandered through the dark.

 

[۩]

The real thing that I think is important about shamanism is to really know misery and dispare, to basically befreind it..becasue you cannot work in the light if you have not first wandered through the dark.

Concurred..

 

['Coatl]

A shaman is somebody who trips (or goes into a trance) for a reason (in my opinion) plain and simple. He may or may not use psychoactive drugs and may or may not practice healing and medicine.

 

[Ginkgo]

[quote='Coatl]A shaman is somebody who trips (or goes into a trance) for a reason (in my opinion) plain and simple. He may or may not use psychoactive drugs and may or may not practice healing and medicine.[/quote]
Or even simpler: A shaman is someone who communicate with spirit worlds. Some communicate in a trance that can be induced in a number of different ways, some without the need for a trance.

The real thing that I think is important about shamanism is to really know misery and dispare, to basically befreind it..becasue you cannot work in the light if you have not first wandered through the dark.

Yes, indeed! Great! "The journey of the wounded healer" is something you can find in every culture in one form or another. I believe it is an absolute necessity to undergo this journey, in one form or another, to be able to heal properly.

 

[cellux]

Alot of people have all these romantic ideas about what shamanism is...they fall inlove with this idea of a perfect saint dancing around in a headdress or something...

Yeah. We tend to have this enthusiasm towards anyone who can do something more than we can. We look up to famous scientists or artists - and sometimes we strive to become like them, thinking that by just pure effort we can do it. But that's not how it is organized. Those people have God-given gifts in a certain area, it's not because of their efforts, they just got it "by chance" (how cruel this seems btw) and they can make whatever they want with it. But this doesn't make them perfect at all. They may be dumb, jealous or primitive, while still having that talent. And people go to them and cherish them and follow them, because their talent may have such a hypnotizing power that it makes them entirely blind to the negative aspects.

 

[Ayawasqero]

Great idea to start a shamanic thread. DMT definitively is a shamanic substance so it´s only right it is discussed in the shamanic context.

 

[jamie]

[quote='Coatl]A shaman is somebody who trips (or goes into a trance) for a reason (in my opinion) plain and simple. He may or may not use psychoactive drugs and may or may not practice healing and medicine.

[/quote]

Yes..well I agree to an extent.

I should add that I do not think that these people are exactly the same in every culture. A norse seidkona is not exactly the same as a amzonian currandero, who is not the same as a native american heyoka..who in turn is not the same as the siberian shaman.

The one thing that binds them is the idea of the world tree..and the direct experience of non-ordinary reality.

The term shaman gets thrown around alot and applied to to other cultures becasue some anthroplogist decided to generalize the term and lump all animism into one categoy.

These people are all similar in what they do, but not exactly the same.

I wont get into it too deeply, but what I am most connected with is seidr..I am of norse ancestory with some french/english so possibly welsh as well, lots of relatives from denmark..maybe saami as well..but i have connected the most with the norse. It is the way of my ancestors and it just fits me. Seidr is a form of norse or germanic trance magic that was most likely taught to the norse by the sammi noaide(saami form of shaman)..who was probabily the closest thing to the siberian shaman you can get..the saami and the siberians shared basically the same cosmology.

In the norse the practicer of siedr was known as the seidknona, volva..many differnt names. Healing is a part of was can be done with seidr, but not all practicioners of seidr heal. Seidr also may involve hexing.

Now among germaic peoples there was also spa craft..which differed from seidr in that it involves divination, casting runes, later on the tarrot..things like that. Seidr however was about going into a trance, leaving the body for other worlds, communing with spirits etc to accomplish certain tasks..it was knows as "sitting out". The only time the runes were used for this was in a form of song known as galdr..where the runes becomes a magical language that is chanted by a cirlce of people dancing around the one who was seithing. Seithing translates to something like "boiling"..some take that to mean literally the boiling of the conciouness as it expands and leaves to other places and also the boiling of water in a pot, as seidr was known to make use of certain plant hallucinogens that were brewed in potions.

Seidr was also largely associated with the god Freya, and also Odin or Wotan..though I personally belive that the practice predates the emergance of polytheistic gods and extends through from a more core animistic time..

The story goes that Odin was largely associated with runic magic, spacraft..and that Freya was sort of the keeper of seidr trance, or shamanistic magic. After the battle between the Vanier(freya's tribe) and Aesir(Odin's tribe) ended, some of the vanic peoples went to live in Asgard, the land of Aesir, and some Aesir went to live in Vangard, the land of the Vanir.

Freye was sent to live and rule in a palace in Asgard, where she became Odins lover, and she taught him the magic of trance and the seidr spirit journey...

Seidr was viewed as a mainly feminine practice..men were more into spacraft and divination and war. Howver there were still men who practiced seidr and they were viewed as effeminate men and even crossdresser..(similar to the heyoka of the Native American) Odin was known to be a cross dresser.

Now some associate Odin more with seidr than Freya and say that he actaulyl taught it to her..mostly because of the story of how he actaully gained knowledge of the runes..Odin made the untimate sacrfice..he sacrficed himself to himself, hanging upside down from ygdrassil(the world tree) for nine days, with no food or water, pierced his side with his own spier and gave up one eye..Odin died to learn the art of runic magic. Most interprete this as a symbolic shamanic death-rebirth experience se to the ingestion of the fly agaric mushroom.

Odin was associated the with fly agaric, and dressed in traditional red and white just like the amanita this is where the image of santa clause comes from. The norse god was a shaman god. Amanita was known as ravins bread and indeed Odin had 2 ravins and 2 wolves as pets. Interesting that wolves were one of the most hated animals amongst the norse..ravens were extremely sacred. Odin was also the only god who could travese though the 9 worlds of the ygdrassil world tree, riding on his 8 legged horse, slepnir.

Odin was also associated with mead beer, which was traditionally brewed with henbane and known as "pilsner"..

This is basically where witchcraft came from as well..which, BTW has NOTHING to do with wicca. Witch traditioanlly traslated to "hedge rider"..the hedge meaning the boundry around the community seperating it from the forest and the "unknown"..and also the boundry between the various worlds of the world tree..the hedge rider lived on the hedge itslef, waking 2 worlds crossing it into the other at ease.

I could go on and on but that sort of sums up Norse "shamanic" magic..or seidr.

Not everyone associated siedr with the gods and goddesses..I dont. There is evidence that it goes back much farther than that..to me it is about going into trance and working with plants and other spirits..and I think it's still a living tradtion that is growing, and with the gloabal communitcations we have these days we have even more access to other plants to use in our craft...

I dont feel the need to really try to be a currandero or heyoka or whatever becasue I know that i have my own traditions that I can look back on..which is important in the world today..diversity is a good thing..I dont really like how the term "shaman is applied to every culture doing this thing becasue it sort of becomes a cop-out in alot of ways, and people get this impression that this thing comes from only one area or group of people and that anyone else doing it is taking it from that tradition.

I have no problem with learning from other cultures and finding new techniques and allies in other plants that do not grow in northern Europe..becasue like i said, this is a living tradition...but I hate how when these things come up, people lump it all into this "shaman" category and instantly think native american.

I think that we would be better off if everyone would look back into history and study the "shamanic" equivalent of their ancestors..alot of techniques, plants etc seem to be lost these days because of the cultural generalization of it all as "shaman"..people dont feel the need to look beyond wikepedia definitions and such these days..it's really a tragedy..so much emphasis is put on ayahuasca traditions etc and others are marginalised...I am sure there is tons of new(old) stuff to be uncovered still, and that would be great becasue we could all share those ideas and techniques and the global journeying community could benifit..

I guess what I am saying is dont let YOUR ancestoral practice of this thing die. There might just be something of interest there.