Shamanism

[anne halonium]

You are not the mountain stone. You are not the white stone or the black stone. You see no stones. You are a cup that is completely full and overflows. To travel the world and miss the connection with these people is missing yourself. You can connect with anyone and anything in this world, a stone, a mountain, kids trying to touch your hair, medicine men or even a side show freak. Everyone has something to teach and give. To discount thousands of years of shamanic history is foolhardy to say the least. The intentions of these teachers and healers is admirable. But you only saw yourself. The world is full of treachery but I don't focus on that. I can separate the wheat from the chaff.

and ,i can spot quackery also.

^one of many talents that comes from age, experience,
advanced education, govt training, and extensive world travel.

i can separate the hacks and quacks.
and i dont eat wheat.

im left thinking jim jones would have ruled the world by now if he had aya.

the rise of pseudo shaman self righteous medicine show quackery,
has soiled us........

sorry, im not subjugate to stone age natives on drugs.
IMO, they should drop the aya and step up to a serious grow ,sans the harry potter.
in the new age, some of us can do that.
the new axiom is,
those that lack advanced talent, education ,and skills. teach pseudo shamanism.
zero apologies .

those of us of age, remember the guru craze of the 60s with acid.
some of us tripped to immunity on this stuff.

 

[travsha]

Guess some people think they know everything about things they have never experienced....

Glad I am not one of them.

 

[ganesh]

and ,i can spot quackery also.

^one of many talents that comes from age, experience,
advanced education, govt training, and extensive world travel.

i can separate the hacks and quacks.
and i dont eat wheat.

Hmmm... Something tells me that you really don't understand the simple principles of Aya based healings. I don't think it's fair to make judgements about something you haven't experienced or understood. Ayahuasca is mainly used for Diagnostic purposes, the healing is where the Curandero works together with the plant spirits.

Seriously there is no quackery going on here. Ayahuasca is called 'la medicina' for good reasons.

 

[anne halonium]

Guess some people think they know everything about things they have never experienced....

Glad I am not one of them.

really, id have said the same.

and no i dont drink the kool aid if thats what your saying ganesh.
dont intend to either.

IMO, from my observation, this thread is packed with judgements by those who lack experience.

the stone age candles, and shadows, are simply eclipsed by modern high intensity LED.
you guys are only a notch from a new meaning of "aya"-tollahs.

not feeling it.
all the community needs is a combo medicine show and guru stone age religion on drugs.
not.

 

[ganesh]

and no i dont drink the kool aid if thats what your saying ganesh.
dont intend to either.

IMO, from my experience, this thread is packed with judgements by those who lack experience.

Ha! you're getting funnier by the minuite, AH!

one of many talents that comes from age, experience,
advanced education, govt training, and extensive world travel.

i can separate the hacks and quacks.

At the end of the day Anne, you can only pass fair judgement on stuff you have experienced. Untill then what you're sayin about Curanderos is just all 'puffed up hot air', and 'nonsense' based on your guesswork and fantasy.

 

[anne halonium]

hey, just concerned about impressionable youth on drugs paying big for charlatan shows.

as said, this was played out with gurus in the 60s.
all were seeing is a reboot..........

this stuff made a mockery of the psyche movement before.
those who delete history for expedience, repeat it .

i suspect the archives of nexus will last hundreds of years.
for the future readers,
im with modern medicine, science, safety, education and advanced grow arts.

charlatans will be forgot, as they always are in time.

difference noted.

 

[ganesh]

hey, just concerned about impressionable youth on drugs paying big for charlatan shows.

as said, this was played out with gurus in the 60s.
all were seeing is a reboot..........

this stuff made a mockery of the psyche movement before.
those who delete history for expedience, repeat it .

Well why didn't you say that in the first place?

Unfortunately there are charletons, but also reputable Curanderos. I think you should one day try drinking in the Jungle, it's literally the trip of a lifetime, and also really nice to see people still drinking it legally in 2016. Isn't that nice to know?

 

[anne halonium]

it's literally the trip of a lifetime,

^ theres the difference between us ganesh.
im lifetime of trips, jungle / city .......land, air and sea.

i like it full spectra.

step outta the woods and shadows and join us.
its a bigger psyche world, without guru goggles.
id suggest you expand your vision.

 

[ganesh]

step outta the woods and shadows and join us.
its a bigger psyche world, without guru goggles.
id suggest you expand your vision.

Well Anne, all i'm saying is that you can only fairly comment on stuff you have actually experienced. What you may have experienced in PNG, for example, won't be the same kinda stuff as what happens in a Jungle Aya ceremony.

This isn't anything to do with 'guru' admiration, or any of that malarky, but it is certainly to do with being respectable about learning about one of Peru's cultural heritages that have survived the Spanish Inquisition, are Government approved, and still in use to this day, by locals, and by tourists.

 

[travsha]

I have seen Ayahuasqueros heal epilepsy, cancer, diabetes.... If you are not doing the same thing or better, then I dont see how you are any position to dismiss their work. You have zero argument to stand on, and just keep digging your hole deeper.

Everyone has something to teach someone else.... Dismissing an entire people just because you want to feel superior to them really only makes you look bad.

 

[inaniel]

when 1st world medicine combines with hallucinogens, sans hocus pocus,
we shall see true new age progress

Just out of curiosity, what first world medicine do you speak of? Last i checked the 1st world west is profoundly ill, trillions of dollars are spent on health care and these numbers increase every year. Someone posted a thread recently about how anti-depressants increase suicide. Cancer treatments seem to be more harmful than anything, except maybe expenses. Aren't you the person that healed your gut by cutting out sugar and grains? would not most first world doctors say this is nonsense and there's no true connection between the two?

 

[travsha]

when 1st world medicine combines with hallucinogens, sans hocus pocus,
we shall see true new age progress

Just out of curiosity, what first world medicine do you speak of? Last i checked the 1st world west is profoundly ill, trillions of dollars are spent on health care and these numbers increase every year. Someone posted a thread recently about how anti-depressants increase suicide. Cancer treatments seem to be more harmful than anything, except maybe expenses. Aren't you the person that healed your gut by cutting out sugar and grains? would not most first world doctors say this is nonsense and there's no true connection between the two?

Largest killer in the country (USA) is western medicine. According to CDC statistics it kills more people then heart disease. 60% of our medicines are based on chemicals found in plants from the Amazon which pharma companies learned about from shamans.... But almost all of them are less effective then the plants used.

For example, some AIDS medications are made from Jergon Sacha. These meds are ridiculously expensive, dont heal anything, but just help manage symptoms, and if you go off the meds you get sicker then before.... But people in the Amazon have been known to cure HIV with Jergon Sacha combined with Una de Gato (no side effects and very cheap). One doctor used the same two plants to cure my friends prostate cancer.

Western medicine is good for treating acute issues like broken bones. Horrible for treating any kind of chronic illness though. Shamanism on the other hand is fantastic for treating chronic illness which is why so many people go to the Amazon after trying everything western medicine has to offer and getting no results.....

This is where you find that different cultures can really teach each other a lot. Western medicine knows almost nothing about treating chronic illness and could learn a ton from the more successful traditional practices. But Western medicine excels at treating acute emergency issues - and has that to offer in return. This is why people benefit most from working together and learning from each other rather then trying to feel superior by putting others down or calling them "stone age".

 

[DmnStr8]

Largest killer in the country (USA) is western medicine. According to CDC statistics it kills more people then heart disease. 60% of our medicines are based on chemicals found in plants from the Amazon which pharma companies learned about from shamans.... But almost all of them are less effective then the plants used.

For example, some AIDS medications are made from Jergon Sacha. These meds are ridiculously expensive, dont heal anything, but just help manage symptoms, and if you go off the meds you get sicker then before.... But people in the Amazon have been known to cure HIV with Jergon Sacha combined with Una de Gato (no side effects and very cheap). One doctor used the same two plants to cure my friends prostate cancer.

Western medicine is good for treating acute issues like broken bones. Horrible for treating any kind of chronic illness though. Shamanism on the other hand is fantastic for treating chronic illness which is why so many people go to the Amazon after trying everything western medicine has to offer and getting no results.....

This is where you find that different cultures can really teach each other a lot. Western medicine knows almost nothing about treating chronic illness and could learn a ton from the more successful traditional practices. But Western medicine excels at treating acute emergency issues - and has that to offer in return. This is why people benefit most from working together and learning from each other rather then trying to feel superior by putting others down or calling them "stone age".

I agree wholeheartedly. Well said!

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I think it was mckenna who said "shamans only pick patients they know will get better"

A shaman would turn away a person they can not help.

Shamans I know wouldnt turn people away for this.... They would still try. They might refer them to someone else with a specialty in the area though if they know someone.

At the least, the shaman might be able to help the person find peace with their illness, which can count for a lot.

The shaman I have been working with describes it as if he knows a person will die from their illness, and if he knows there's nothing he can do, he would tell them, "I can't do anything for you" rather than claim the opposite when he knows it's not true...
It's almost a type of Entheogenic clairvoyance, the shaman knows who will get better and who will not, and generally will be honest about it.

"Shaman" can also cover a broad range of diverse practices, even with in close geography shamanism can vary drastically from place to place.

I think we have got into shamanic debates before, and trust me, I know you are knowledgeable, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm simply speaking from my experiance. I probably should have specified that I'm not speaking for all shamans as well...

-eg

 

[Jees]

...if he knows there's nothing he can do, he would tell them, "I can't do anything for you" rather than claim the opposite when he knows it's not true...

The one's I know of would still do their thing, even on a dying body, if only to ease aspects of the near transition.

"I can't do anything for you" is so depressing, like imposing statistics, there's still the odd miracle where the butterfly's wing movement initiates a storm. I think even western doctors take their chances against huge odds.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

...if he knows there's nothing he can do, he would tell them, "I can't do anything for you" rather than claim the opposite when he knows it's not true...

The one's I know of would still do their thing, even on a dying body, if only to ease aspects of the near transition.

"I can't do anything for you" is so depressing, like imposing statistics, there's still the odd miracle where the butterfly's wing movement initiates a storm. I think even western doctors take their chances against huge odds.

It's ok that you disagree.

In my experiance, if a shaman "knows" a person will die, he will be honest about it...

Here, I'll try to put it in a more understandable way, if a modern doctor performs tests, and finds inoperable cancer, and knows that there's nothing that he, or modern medicine can do about it, he won't waste efforts, he will say "there's nothing we can do, I'm sorry"

The shaman which I have been working with are like this, they know their abilities, they also have strange telepathic abilities, and are able to only choose patients that they know will get better, and that they know they can help...essentially it's as if he could look into the future, and see the results, he will know if his efforts will be futile, and he will know if the patient even has a chance...

Terence mckenna describes an event where this occurred, the shaman knew he could do nothing for a sick child that was brought to him, and he told these people "I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do" and turned the child away, which is sad yes, but was also the only option...I can't find the transcription of this, and I can't remember the name of the lecture it was in, it may have even been n a question and answer session, but if I find it I will post it.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

...if he knows there's nothing he can do, he would tell them, "I can't do anything for you" rather than claim the opposite when he knows it's not true...

The one's I know of would still do their thing, even on a dying body, if only to ease aspects of the near transition.

"I can't do anything for you" is so depressing, like imposing statistics, there's still the odd miracle where the butterfly's wing movement initiates a storm. I think even western doctors take their chances against huge odds.

If that "odd miracle" exists, the shaman won't say there's nothing he can do, he has an ability to know who has a chance and who doesn't.

I'm sure if the people said, "ok, you can not cure the ailment, but can you do work to aide my psychological and spiritual transitioning states?", the shaman would preform the job, but he would never claim to be able to heal a person that can not be healed, instilling that individual.and their family with false hope is more cruel than admitting your powerless to change the situation.

-eg

 

[travsha]

In many cases a shaman might not know whether the person will die or not.... Often times it is a close thing.

But every shaman I have met so far would at least offer their service in a effort to help ease their dying.

A good example of this is the documentary The Sacred Science (free on youtube). There is a terminal patient who dies during the documentary and you can tell he died very happy and peacefully after his ceremonies.

Your shaman may be different..... But I sit with a lot of different healers, and all of them do their best to help people, even if the only help they can give is helping them die.

 

[Jees]

The shamanism I've met is about love, which over rules everything.
Turning off-or-on on the base of success rate doesn't fit in there at all.
A dying body, can't imagine a higher need for shamanic love solace.

 

[jamie]

"A good example of this is the documentary The Sacred Science (free on youtube). There is a terminal patient who dies during the documentary and you can tell he died very happy and peacefully after his ceremonies."

That to me is just the psychedelic. Similar to MDMA assisted psychotherapy for terminal cancer patients.

I'm not sure in the west we need shamans, plant spirits, animal guides or people who shapeshift. I think that psychedelics themselves are more important.