Shamanism

[Jin]

as other stuff like sucking it

:thumb_up:

sucking what ???:twisted: :lol:

 

[ganesh]

Plus, we must realise that these medicine men are the guardians of the Amazonian medicine plants they've been using for aeons, that the West is now discovering and using to treat illness albeit in their usual pharma trademarked manner.

"These medicine men" are not some god-ordained guardians, nor do "these medicine men" hold exclusive rights to or authority over these plants. On what would anyone base such claims?

Who said they held exclusive rights to these plants, what i was suggesting was their respect and value for those plants.

They've been using them before any white man ever knew about them. The white man has a lot to learn from the remaining 'medicine men' that he didn't wipe out, when he invaded their home.

as other stuff like sucking it

:thumb_up:

sucking what ???:twisted: :lol:

AH's lovely ripe juicy 'lophs', of course...

 

[pitubo]

They've been using them before any white man ever knew about them. The white man has a lot to learn from the remaining 'medicine men' that he didn't wipe out, when he invaded their home.

What "white man"? I'm white and a man. I did not invade their home. I did not wipe out any medicine men. Please stop overgeneralizing and championing misplaced sentiments.

 

[dreamer042]

I'm just gonna leave this here.

Erowid 2C-B Vault : The Nexus Factor

The Nexus Factor: An introduction to 2C-B, by Anubis

www.erowid.org

According to Dr Hirst, who has been studying and writing about traditional healing in South Africa for the past 20 years: `Xhosa diviners and herbalists, like other shamans worldwide, use psychoactive plants and substances to induce altered states of consciousness in initiates who are being trained and inducted into the profession. Psychoactive plants are highly valued as a means of communicating with the ancestors and gaining insights into the spirit world.' `However, nowadays the plant roots traditionally used to induce visionary experiences in novices are very hard to come by. This is due to a combination of several factors such as the over-utilisation of wild plant resources by herb-sellers and healers, and drought and over-grazing. However, even when these plants are available, they are quite toxic. Consequently, poisoning, and even death, can occur as a result of taking the wrong dosage - which even experienced healers sometimes have difficulty estimating.' During his field trips, Dr Hirst has met a number of diviners who have used Nexus as a substitute for traditional plants. `At the dosages recommended on packs of Ubulawu Nomathotholo there appears to be no toxicity or physical discomfort, and some of the therapeutic results have been quite impressive.' One initiate who was administered five Nexus tablets by her teacher reported afterwards that she found herself transported to a beautiful forest where she met wild antelope and carnivores who revealed that they were the messengers of her tribal ancestors. According to Dr Hirst: `This transcendent experience had a profoundly beneficial effect on this initiate who, up until this time, had lacked confidence in herself and her calling to be a healer.' Another case history recounted by Dr Hirst was that of a male diviner who became pathologically depressed after the tragic death of one of his children. Even after the conclusion of the traditional period of mourning he continued to be morose and avoided all contact with this patients, referring them instead to his colleagues.

The diviner told Dr Hirst that after taking Nexus he had a visionary experience in which he found himself face to face with uDali (the Creator) who revealed to him the underlying meaning of the death of his child. `With his faith and confidence restored, he continued his work as a successful traditional healer.' Ancestral spirits in the guise of wild animals, visionary encounters with uDali - these are things that the average white person in South Africa will probably have some difficulty getting his mind around. However, for millions of blacks, especially out in the rural areas of the country, these are spiritual issues that are pivotal to their lives.

What if Nexus really is a safe and effective alternative to scarce and often dangerous plant medicines? What if this substance really does put African healers more in touch with the magical, mysterious realms of consciousness that have been the cornerstone of African belief for thousands of years? And what if South Africa's tens of thousands of traditional healers were to collectively demand that this medicine be made readily available to them?

 

[hug46]

The white man has a lot to learn from the remaining 'medicine men' that he didn't wipe out, when he invaded their home.

Europeans also have a long history of using medicinal plants.

Historical review of medicinal plants’ usage

Healing with medicinal plants is as old as mankind itself. The connection between man and his search for drugs in nature dates from the far past, of which there is ample evidence from various sources: written documents, preserved monuments, and even original ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[anne halonium]

i consider jamie the modern shaman also and A1.
we have many modern shaman here, but jamie stands out indeed.

the shroom kit thing was kinda funny.
those things are a disaster.

the difference tween banksters and pharma moguls and shaman is.......
we have hallucionogens.

western med isnt perfect.
but they do have this thing for documentation.

im wondering how many here have also sat thru the indian loph thing.
before aya, thats how the rest of us old people did it.

of course i run various ceremonies depending on the drug.
i play this down, and work the students in subtle ways.
also, i have a bad charisma problem ,
people beg me for sessions as it is. if i talked about it,
it would upset my balance of nature.
im" do miracles and shut up and run."
LEO is sharp to a local shaman in most locals.
also,
many of my clients are wealthy , and some have been famous.
they come to me cuz i keep secrets forever. ( AKA good shaman)
if my mouth was as big as my ego, id be in a cage.
( watch some of these aya guys, WILL get caged, NAC is already distancing themselves)


at some point the best students become masters of reality.
some day, some of you will sit with a master, and realize youve exceeded them.
if you dont accept your the master at that point, youve failed the IQ test.

no matter what we are, we will be exceeded in time.
im waiting to see what jamie will be like when hes my age.
should be impressive.

and........ sucking on lophs is easy.
when you grow them like lollipops.

being a whitey/ indian hybrid,
ive come to terms with both heritages,
and would suggest ive evolved to a higher form of both.

 

[Jin]

as other stuff like sucking it

:thumb_up:

sucking what ???:twisted: :lol:

AH's lovely ripe juicy 'lophs', of course...

hey ganesh don't take it too personally , just move on
there is life outside this thread too

don't really have the time to write anything more , just read what is already written a few more times, in time it will all make sense

also good luck :twisted:

 

[pitubo]

the shroom kit thing was kinda funny. those things are a disaster.

Perhaps you've only seen the bad ones? All the one's I've seen were good value for money. Anyone can use them without getting organized with all the tools and tricks of mycology.

western med isnt perfect. but they do have this thing for documentation.

Ummm, the links I posted pointed out large scale fraud particularly in the documentation part. It is not just the western medicine men who are the problem, it is also the western medicine consumers at all levels. They are as gullible as the victims of "quackery".

Modern western culture is most advanced foremost in propaganda, I sometimes think.

 

[anne halonium]

Perhaps you've only seen the bad ones? All the one's I've seen were good value for money. Anyone can use them without getting organized with all the tools and tricks of mycology.

i didnt realize there were good bags of crap and spore prints?

lol. most kit buyers fail.
even if they suceed they failed for skill / ability.

also, ive never seen a kit that could grow enough to feed anyone serious.

i never had kits, i learned pre internet,
thru college bio classes and thru a famous grower, i shall not name.

if you need a kit, your not a master.
masters dont need kits for anything.

 

[pitubo]

Well anne, too bad for you that you never saw a good grow kit, because they do exist.

BTW, nobody is a master of everything.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Okay...

I've been watching this thread for the past week and wondering when someone would beat me to the punch and shut it down. It's pretty cringe inducing (on both sides of the debate), but I've got to draw a line in the sand here unless Traveler sees things differently:

Travsha - You need to cease and desist with the unsubstantiated medical claims. I'm sorry - they either stop completely or the thread goes away.

You are entitled to whatever beliefs you want, but your medical claims and the way you present them have no place here - so, please take this is as fair warning.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this. I don't think we can fault Travsha for honestly sharing his experiences. Spontaneous remission and the placebo effect are extremely well documented in the medical literature, and all shamanic hoodoo aside, people heal from these kind of extreme conditions under seemingly miraculous circumstances all the time.

I suspect that getting people out of their standard routines, immersing them in nature, changing their diet, feeding them copious amounts of plant medicine, and truly believing the treatment works, all of which are supported by evidence, probably play a role as much as any old indian shaking a shakapa and blowing mapacho over the patient, but hell if praying to white jesus or swallowing a sugar pill can heal a terminal illness, why can't some icaros? As long as no one is dispensing medical advice or discouraging anyone from doing their own research and making their own choices about their health, I don't really see any harm.

I think that repeated, specific, fantastical claims require at least a modicum of reasonable corroboration. If I tell you that the moon is made of cheese, it's not your responsibility to prove to me that it's not. I'm the one making the claim, and if I'm making it publicly I should expect to be held accountable to the forces of objective logic.

In this particular instance, I do think these claims and the manner in which he is making them is tantamount to giving medical advice. He is saying that he has personally witnessed any number of terminal illnesses being cured by shamanic intervention. I find this notion naïve and ludicrous to be sure - but more importantly, I think it's a dangerous one to pass along to someone currently facing a major illness and weighing possible treatment plans.

 

[anne halonium]

Well anne, too bad for you that you never saw a good grow kit, because they do exist.

BTW, nobody is a master of everything.

of course not, thats why i stick with sex drugs and rock and roll.
i run with the natural talents.

the serious shamanette , wont be trifled with arguing the obvious on grow kits.

 

[travsha]

who says ive never done ceremonies.


if your defining it all by wether we patronize your favorite indian,
probably not.

i ate lophs all thru the late 70s with indians .
i just dont tout that stuff.

You are the only person saying a ceremony needs an indian. Has nothing to do with indians and has nothing to do with eating drugs. It has to do with sitting in a traditional healing ceremony with a shaman.

And you do tout eating lophs with indians all over this thread. I just wouldnt consider it a ceremony unless it was with a shaman, because most indians are not shamans. Eating drugs does not automatically make a ceremony, and most Natives actually dont use psychedelics in their ceremonies.

Travsha - You need to cease and desist with the unsubstantiated medical claims. I'm sorry - they either stop completely or the thread goes away.

You are entitled to whatever beliefs you want, but your medical claims and the way you present them have no place here - so, please take this is as fair warning.

You seem very threatened with me telling others what has happened to me, or what I have seen, which I think is very weird. I never said all people seeing shamans heal their cancer or that there are studies pointing to it being the most effective treatment - I just mentioned what has happened to people I know.

If you look up studies on Ayahuasca, you will find some suggesting cancer benefits and diabetes benefits and benefits treating depression.... But these are smaller studies and dont include the shamanic component that I think is more important personally. But there are some studies like this one showing promise for treating cancer: Ayahuasca and cancer treatment

Or this study showing shamanic care coupled with rehab is showing a 70% success rating while the next best rehab in the world only has a 30% success rating: BBC NEWS | Programmes | Crossing Continents | Peru seeks tribal cure for addiction

Either way - I dont see how it is a crime to let other people what I have seen with my own eyes, and to let other people know what has helped my community. Shamanic healing has saved lives of a number of terminal friends I know who are no longer terminal. I think keeping that information to myself would be unethical, and cruel of me. If no one mentions what they have seen, then there will never be enough interest here to get further studies because westerners think they no everything.

Of course western medicine is the largest killer in USA, but if you buy into their system, nothing is wrong with that.... Studies show that chemo lowers your chance of surviving cancer, yet doctors claim that it is the best treatment (while they turn down chemo treatment themselves). Support that system, but demonize someone just for saying they saw something else that looked better to them?

Of course I never told anyone what the best way was, or told anyone what they should do. I only mentioned what I have seen. If that is a crime to you, then do whatever you want, because it would be against my ethics to lie to people about what I have seen or to hide possible medicine.


Interesting though that Anne claims to be a better healer then traditional shamans earlier in this thread, and that claim is considered okay. But saying that a shaman who has been practicing his medicine for 40+ years who learned his craft from a tradition passed down for generations has had good success from what I have seen.... Not okay? Weird.

Here is a documentary of 8 people going to the Amazon for healing - maybe you can make claims about why these healed under the care of a shaman when they couldnt get healing from western medicine.... Of course it cant be real - they must all be lying or something right?

And just to balance it, lets look at how effective western medicine is at killing people, yet still getting the public to support it: http://reset.me/story/conventional-medicine-is-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us/

7,000 patients die each year because of sloppy handwriting while 1.5 million are hurt by preventable medication mistakes. There are 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures annually, and at least 106,000 deaths from adverse reactions to drugs.
In fact, over half of the people in the United States have been given medical treatment unnecessarily, or 50,000 people per day. Out of all Americans, 42 percent have been affected by a medical mistake, and 84 percent know someone who has been.

But they payed for studies, so I guess we should all support them and ignore shamans right?

Oh, and if I have a different opinion about something then you do, I should keep it to myself. Sure.


Maybe there are modern day shamans on the Nexus. But I would only consider them shamans if they heal others through connecting with spirits - since that is what a shaman is. I know a lot of people doing this where I live, so I have no doubts that people in the western or modern world are doing the work. But I also know a lot of people who like to take drugs and call themselves shamans even though they dont do the actual work..... So I would take "shaman" claims with a grain of salt unless the person is healing illness repeatedly.

 

[hug46]

And just to balance it, lets look at how effective western medicine is at killing people, yet still getting the public to support it: http://reset.me/story/conventional-medicine-is-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us/

7,000 patients die each year because of sloppy handwriting while 1.5 million are hurt by preventable medication mistakes. There are 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures annually, and at least 106,000 deaths from adverse reactions to drugs.
In fact, over half of the people in the United States have been given medical treatment unnecessarily, or 50,000 people per day. Out of all Americans, 42 percent have been affected by a medical mistake, and 84 percent know someone who has been.

I saw your post earlier claiming that western medicine kills more people than heart disease in the US and i thought to myself "how can this be??"

That resteme link makes things a bit clearer. The video is by Mercola.com. Surely Joseph Mercola has an agenda by posting a video like that?? He is a business man.

On his website mercola.com, Mercola and colleagues advocate a number of unproven alternative health notions including homeopathy, while promoting anti-vaccine positions. Mercola is a member of the Political advocacy group Association of American Physicians and Surgeons as well as several alternative medicine organizations.[5][6]

Mercola has been criticized by business, regulatory, medical, and scientific communities. A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial stated his marketing practices relied on "slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics."[3] In 2005, 2006, and 2011, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration warned Mercola and his company to stop making illegal claims regarding his products' ability to detect, prevent, and treat disease.[7] The medical watchdog site Quackwatch has criticized Mercola for making "unsubstantiated claims [that] clash with those of leading medical and public health organizations and many unsubstantiated recommendations for dietary supplements.

Joseph Mercola - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[a1pha]

Maybe there are modern day shamans on the Nexus. But I would only consider them shamans if they heal others through connecting with spirits - since that is what a shaman is.

It's great that you feel the right to decide what makes or does not make a shaman but fortunately the world is not limited by your view. There are many on the Nexus who might be called urban shamans and their magik is just as valid as the native in South America. North Americans learnd their own kinda spells.

And curing AIDS? Take that BS elsewhere, travsha.

 

[Bill Cipher]

Travsha - I'm not at all threatened by your claims. I do, however, feel a responsibility to guard against quackery and the proliferation of dangerous misinformation. You say you personally know someone who was HIV positive, visited a shaman, and now is not. I say you're full of shit, and unfortunately for you I have the ability to ban you, so yes, I'm saying keep it to yourself - unless you'd care to post your friend's before and after test results (along with your friend who no longer has cancer, and your TWO friends who have been cured of epilepsy...)

hug46 - Thank you for posting that link. It puts the whole matter into better perspective.

 

[travsha]

That resteme link makes things a bit clearer. The video is by Mercola.com. Surely Joseph Mercola has an agenda by posting a video like that?? He is a business man.\

If he sells something, it doesnt automatically make his claims wrong. If his numbers are fabricated, then that makes his claims wrong. I dont think it is fair to dismiss him outright unless you have other sources with different numbers, or can point out exactly what he was misleading about. If the numbers are correct, then they are correct, regardless of who told you about the numbers.

The original claim I made about this was based on past research I did, and not the reset me article. According to CDC statistics Western Medicine is the top killer. If you split up the unique causes of death within the western medicine umbrella, then prescription drugs would be the second largest killer after Heart disease. I did my research a few years back, so I dont remember the exact links for the CDC numbers that I had used before, so I was just looking for a quick source that said something similar.... There are tons of other articles about how many people western medicine kills like this one too: Top Causes of Death Worldwide (and How to Avoid Them!) - Dr. Axe

All that being said - I think western medicine can be good for treating acute injury. It has its place. But it is also a huge business run more by what makes money then what works. Cant really keep science honest or objective when money becomes the main goal.

It's great that you feel the right to decide what makes or does not make a shaman but fortunately the world is not limited by your view. There are many on the Nexus who might be called urban shamans and their magik is just as valid as the native in South America. North Americans learnd their own kinda spells.

And curing AIDS? Take that BS elsewhere, travsha.

I wasnt deciding what makes a shaman - it is a word with a commonly used definition. I am using the common definition. Look it up in a dictionary if you are confused. I also never said South American shamanism is better then North American or anything like that - all I said was that shamans heal people with the aid of spirits. Has nothing to do with race or where someone lives - has to do with ability. I know many North American shamans living in modern cities. I know many shamans of all races and colors and nationalities. Race has nothing to do with it at all.

As for curing AIDS.... Well my friend no longer has HIV according to his doctors. There is also a well known doctor in Iquitos who supposedly cures AIDS (he cured my friends prostate cancer) - and many local papers write about him all the time (Dr. Roberto Inchaustegui). Dont believe it if you dont want to, but at least my friend is healthy now and I am glad for him.

Travsha - I'm not at all threatened by your claims. I do, however, feel a responsibility to guard against quackery and the proliferation of dangerous misinformation. You say you personally know someone who was HIV positive, visited a shaman, and now is not. I say you're full of shit, and unfortunately for you I have the ability to ban you, so yes, I'm saying keep it to yourself - unless you'd care to post your friend's before and after test results (along with your friend who no longer has cancer, and your TWO friends who have been cured of epilepsy...)

I never said for anyone to do anything dangerous. If I did - please quote me. I only mentioned my personal friends story. Fine if you dont believe it, and fine if you want to ban me for telling a story that happened. Doesnt change what happened.

 

[Bill Cipher]

I never said for anyone to do anything dangerous. If I did - please quote me. I only mentioned my personal friends story. Fine if you dont believe it, and fine if you want to ban me for telling a story that happened. Doesnt change what happened.

You are suggesting a cause and effect between visiting a shaman and instantly being cured of what are known to be incurable diseases. You are strongly suggesting that people suffering from such diseases eschew modern medicine in favor of spiritual treatment by a shaman, which I find to be dangerous and irresponsible - and that is exactly what I will ban you for if you insist on continuing.

 

[hug46]

The original claim I made about this was based on past research I did, and not the reset me article. According to CDC statistics Western Medicine is the top killer. If you split up the unique causes of death within the western medicine umbrella, then prescription drugs would be the second largest killer after Heart disease. There are tons of other articles about how many people western medicine kills like this one too: Top Causes of Death Worldwide (and How to Avoid Them!) - Dr. Axe

If you can post a link that is hosted by site that isn't trying to sell something i would be more likely to take it seriously but the Dr.Axe link refers to an "independent review" by Gary Null (amongst others). He also has an agenda to push so cannot rightfully be seen as impartial.

Gary Michael Null (born 1945) is an American talk radio host and author who advocates for alternative medicine and naturopathy[1] and who produces a line of dietary supplements.[2] He is an AIDS denialist and an anti-vaccinationist.[3]

His views on health and nutrition are at odds with scientific consensus; psychiatrist Stephen Barrett, co-founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud and webmaster of Quackwatch, described Null as "one of the nation's leading promoters of dubious treatment for serious disease".[1]

On his radio show, and in books and self-produced movies, Null attacks the medical community, promotes a range of alternative cancer treatments, denies that HIV causes AIDS,[4] opposes genetically modified foods, and promotes dietary supplements which he produces.

Also they claim that these diatrogenic deaths could be 20 times higher. That means that up to around 15 million Americans are killed by Western medicine every year???!!! That's like about 5 percent of the population.

 

[anne halonium]

Anne claims to be a better healer then traditional shamans earlier in this thread, and that claim is considered okay. But saying that a shaman who has been practicing his medicine for 40+ years who learned his craft from a tradition passed down for generations has had good success from what I have seen.... Not okay? Weird.

never claimed to be a healer.
in my practice, i offer the opportunity to trip with a pro,
with the highest quality hallucinogenic plants, lab grown.
i always present people heal themslves.

if one claims the healings, one also has to claim the casualties.
any major doling of hallucinogens, your gonna have some.
you better believe i count casualties, its why i show great caution.
shaman who dont count casualties , are frauds IMO.
its not all roses and cancer cures!

i say 35 yrs plus experience,
but actually its about 40.
gawd im old.
not many survive this game to my age.
theres still a war out there.


loph indians are as old as anything else.
aya indians have no monopoly on time or trips.

a new animal has risen,
hyper smart hybrids with education, experience, and self supplied.
with modern communications and equipment,
the modern stoned age, exceeds the stone age.

the wise would be well advised to learn from the ancients,
and then exceed them.
^ its our duty.