Shamanism

[DmnStr8]

i consider jamie the modern shaman also and A1.
we have many modern shaman here, but jamie stands out indeed.

the shroom kit thing was kinda funny.
those things are a disaster.

the difference tween banksters and pharma moguls and shaman is.......
we have hallucionogens.

western med isnt perfect.
but they do have this thing for documentation.

im wondering how many here have also sat thru the indian loph thing.
before aya, thats how the rest of us old people did it.

of course i run various ceremonies depending on the drug.
i play this down, and work the students in subtle ways.
also, i have a bad charisma problem ,
people beg me for sessions as it is. if i talked about it,
it would upset my balance of nature.
im" do miracles and shut up and run."
LEO is sharp to a local shaman in most locals.
also,
many of my clients are wealthy , and some have been famous.
they come to me cuz i keep secrets forever. ( AKA good shaman)
if my mouth was as big as my ego, id be in a cage.
( watch some of these aya guys, WILL get caged, NAC is already distancing themselves)


at some point the best students become masters of reality.
some day, some of you will sit with a master, and realize youve exceeded them.
if you dont accept your the master at that point, youve failed the IQ test.

no matter what we are, we will be exceeded in time.
im waiting to see what jamie will be like when hes my age.
should be impressive.

and........ sucking on lophs is easy.
when you grow them like lollipops.

being a whitey/ indian hybrid,
ive come to terms with both heritages,
and would suggest ive evolved to a higher form of both.

I liked what you said here. :thumb_up:

 

[anne halonium]

how bout this guys......

if someone asked me what my personal healing program is,
and, im in great health at my age,
id say " fifty fifty"
quite simply,
i believe in a good heroic western certified doctor and hospital,
AND,
a good amount of ( in my case) of " self shamanette".

^i believe in both at the same time.


it works like this,
ive broken various bones and teeth damage over the yrs requiring modern surgery.
for those that have had modern surgery, fine your cured......more/ less,
BUT now deal with the psychology of the trauma and healing.
i let legit doctors have all the fun they want first.
THEN i eat massive shrooms or cactus, and " get over it"

i did 8 hours over 3 days of major dental surgery last month.
im getting total mouth rebuild.
traumatic.
the " cure" to a great mouth and mental trauma from doing it?
A:a whopping shroom trip, and mentally im back and feeling good.
i do believe theres a mental aspect to healing indeed.
but once again, i believe in actual doctors and power tools also.

so im simple about this,
when in need, i see a serious certified doctor first.
then i trip like mad and deal with whatever they did .
so far, its worked for me.

peeps, in the new age,
the modern shaman offers more not less.
i say do both.
its your health . what could be better than a pack of serious med doctors,
AND a whole pack of various ethnic holy men on drugz chanting.
as nexians, we deserve the best crowd possible.:thumb_up:



also, i can appreciate the ancient spirits.
they came to me alot as a little girl. until i was about 20.
^ now, in my case,
its all about aliens. and they have WAY better technology.

so, shaman should talk to ancient spirits,
AND most definitely aliens.
aliens, are what tipped me off to the marvels of modern scientific surgery,
making me far less afraid........

so IMO, no need to argue,
the modern shamanette in the new age. can have it all.
live the legend , no limits.

 

[Jees]

...In many ways you [anne] are the modern shaman...

Have been thinking that too, same about jamie etc..

In which way? Care to explain?...

I don't know them in person, but some gleamings fit into my shaman-picture:
their unstoppable LOVE for their works with the plants, the realms, the targeted steering of their existence, bringing sacrifice-study needed, dedication to intentions, ... I suppose there's more to them than tripping for tripping.

* * *

Thinking a little creative:
If we look at mountain-size amounts of transformation that has been mediated, and recognize the source for that as shamanistic power if permitted, then the Nexus (for example) is a virtual yet hugely powerful "shaman". Extrapolated this boils down to the traveler et al, also other site managers, and a summation of ALL who add to this virtual shamans. Indirect and impersonal, gigantic healing works have been established. <-- Claim
A little like acknowledging that decentralized distribution of shamanic qualities/values is in itself a shamanic work. Just a point of view.

 

[hug46]

All that being said - I think western medicine can be good for treating acute injury. It has its place. But it is also a huge business run more by what makes money then what works. Cant really keep science honest or objective when money becomes the main goal.

I think that therein lies the problem. Western medicine isn't perfect but in the countries that i have lived in healthcare has either been free or heavily subsidised and, for the most part, it is very good. The way in which it is sometimes practised is a problem and people like Gary Null and Joseph Mercola possibly exploit bad medical practice with exagerated claims and scare tactics for the same reason that you gave above...money.

 

[ganesh]

...In many ways you [anne] are the modern shaman...

Have been thinking that too, same about jamie etc..

In which way? Care to explain?...

I don't know them in person, but some gleamings fit into my shaman-picture:
their unstoppable LOVE for their works with the plants, the realms, the targeted steering of their existence, bringing sacrifice-study needed, dedication to intentions, ... I suppose there's more to them than tripping for tripping.

I think you're confusing 'possible Shaman material', with a real trained Shaman? Whatever, it's not for me to judge, but in terms of Amazonian Curandismo, the knowledge that counts is real life knowledge, but not from simply taking Entheogens, but also doing isolated dietas, learning a multitude of skills, that dont even get talked about on the Nexus.

There are a few very knowledgeable posters on the Nexus who would probably make excellent Curandero's if their heart was in it, but i feel that is the crux of the matter; They don't choose that path, and therefore have not done the required training necessary. Remember, you can be extremely knowledgeable, but that does not make you a Curandero.

 

[Jees]

...I think you're confusing 'possible Shaman material'...

It was deliberate actually, but I get your drift to specify and select particular conduct.

BTW I do believe many here are beyond "just taking enheogens" and really use it to make something transform in life/knowledge, and put that down on the life stage. Just not like in SA though. Lesser? Effective? It sure differs. I dare-posit it's "the" (shamanic?) work though even when its barely an amateur like me

 

[endlessness]

It is a fallacious argument to talk about shamanism as a coherent singular system. There is no such thing, and it makes me wonder how much experience those talking in such way actually have with indigenous cultures, and how much of it is a nice fantasy people like to imagine from far (or from going to one or other retreat and thinking they are now experts and can generalize).

Some shamans will tell you alcohol and ayahuasca should never be mixed. Others will drink alcoholic fermented drinks WITH ayahuasca. Some will tell you no sex with ayahuasca otherwise it's bad mojo.. Others will have orgies with ayahuasca. Some will say ayahuasca helps with peace, while others will use it for war and cut their enemies' heads off and put it on a stick. Some will say that they can cure diseases, while some will only use these medicines to help with hunting or good luck. Some will drink together with brugmansia species as a sacred drink while others will say this is dark magic. Some will give the medicine to the patient, while to others that is completely wrong and only the shamans themselves drink the medicine. Some will take with women, while in other group it's only the men that consume it. If there was really such a science, who is right and who is wrong? Or do the 'gods' change their requirements to make miracles work depending on the tribe?

And for those people claiming shamans cured some diseases, do you have access to statistics? And if not, please don't talk about it in such certain terms because there is a clear confirmation bias problem (you hear about cases that work and dont hear about the ones that don't).

Lastly, how necessary or beneficial is it to claim who's the shaman nexian and who's not, and how much of that is just ego stroking?

 

[obliguhl]

Everything endlessness said plus:

Shamanism is not a set of beliefs even though it has it's premises like each and every piece of culture. It's first and foremost a culture bound set of techniques. I often hear "you do not need shamans" ..."everyone is a shaman" etc etc... and while it is true that you do not "need" a shaman, you also do not need a dentist to extract a tooth. Also, just because you can extract a tooth with pair of pliers, it does not make you a dentist.

While i have no had any psychedelics with a shaman, i do not find it hard to believe that they might have a positive impact on an experience since music and other people can certainly shape a trip.

Perhaps if people would not see it as a religion it would be easier to accept that help from experienced people can have a positive influence.

 

[ganesh]

Interesting points, Endlessness.

It is a fallacious argument to talk about shamanism as a coherent singular system. There is no such thing, and it makes me wonder how much experience those talking in such way actually have with indigenous cultures, and how much of it is a nice fantasy people like to imagine from far (or from going to one or other retreat and thinking they are now experts and can generalize).

True. For example, Travsha himself has already stated that the Shipibo do not work with the same spirits as other tribes may do. Indeed Amazonian Curandismo is a very fascinating subject and worthy of study. And of course different lands have different types of Shamanism.

Some shamans will tell you alcohol and ayahuasca should never be mixed. Others will drink alcoholic fermented drinks WITH ayahuasca. Some will tell you no sex with ayahuasca otherwise it's bad mojo.. Others will have orgies with ayahuasca. Some will say ayahuasca helps with peace, while others will use it for war and cut their enemies' heads off and put it on a stick. Some will say that they can cure diseases, while some will only use these medicines to help with hunting or good luck. Some will drink together with brugmansia species as a sacred drink while others will say this is dark magic. Some will give the medicine to the patient, while to others that is completely wrong and only the shamans themselves drink the medicine. Some will take with women, while in other group it's only the men that consume it. If there was really such a science, who is right and who is wrong? Or do the 'gods' change their requirements to make miracles work depending on the tribe?

Yea.Ayahuasca can be used for various purposes, and anyone who has done the most basic of study will hear about good work, and also Brujeria. Opinions may vary between tribes and even Curandero's, but the Curandero's working with tourists are basically working in a similar manner to heal sickness, involving blowing Mapaccho, singing icaros, using protective arcanas, etc. This is a system, not some kind of haphazard hotch potch. They often prescribe an Ayahuasca diet and restrictions to those entering ceremonies, for the purpose of harm reduction, etc.

And for those people claiming shamans cured some diseases, do you have access to statistics? And if not, please don't talk about it in such certain terms because there is a clear confirmation bias problem (you hear about cases that work and dont hear about the ones that don't).

Fair points, mind you i agree with others that a trip in the Jungle away from the city, eating a healthy diet and taking medicinal plants, is likely to have some sort of an effect at least. Most people who travel to the Amazon will no doubt have already tried Western medicine and may be looking for alternatives. I recently watched a documentary where people were actually healed to some extent of chronic illness. I can't find the link, maybe it's Travsha's u tube link?

Lastly, how necessary or beneficial is it to claim who's the shaman nexian and who's not, and how much of that is just ego stroking?

Exactly. I think the issue i have with this is more to do with the fact that some posters do not understand that for example that an Amazonian Curandero has to undertake years of training dieting plants, learn icaros, etc, to be classed as a Curandero. It's good to have people like Travsha here who can explain the difference, and who has an understanding, but who at the same time never seems to 'ego stroke' or 'puff himself up' to be something he is not, for example.

I'm serious about that, really.... i'm not loph'ing! :lol:

while it is true that you do not "need" a shaman, you also do not need a dentist to extract a tooth. Also, just because you can extract a tooth with pair of pliers, it does not make you a dentist.

Well said, Obliguhl. No one is gonna deny that it is often essential to rely on others to help them because they themselves lack those skills. It is important to seek out trusted people to undertake that work.

While i have no had any psychedelics with a shaman, i do not find it hard to believe that they might have a positive impact on an experience since music and other people can certainly shape a trip.

I can say that in Peru the Curandero sang the visions into being. I saw him noticing something within my psyche. He made me vomit when i was on that i want to but can't stage. I have no doubt that these people do have the ability to manipulate the energetic realms, but that is my real life experience. Others may disagree, and who can blame them?

Perhaps if people would not see it as a religion it would be easier to accept that help from experienced people can have a positive influence.

I think this is based upon peoples ignorance. Cuarandismo is a tradition, not a Religion, unless they are confusing it with UDV or Santo Daime, which are Religions.

 

[anne halonium]

I'm serious about that, really... i'm not loph'ing! :lol:

^sorry to hear that.
everyone knows "loph-ter" is the best medicine!
^ and thats no joke.

im glad the loph crowd doesnt seem to need cult leaders,
as that seems to be the stand out lesson here.

 

[travsha]

never claimed to be a healer.
in my practice, i offer the opportunity to trip with a pro,
with the highest quality hallucinogenic plants, lab grown.
i always present people heal themslves.

if one claims the healings, one also has to claim the casualties.
any major doling of hallucinogens, your gonna have some.
you better believe i count casualties, its why i show great caution.
shaman who dont count casualties , are frauds IMO.
its not all roses and cancer cures!

i say 35 yrs plus experience,
but actually its about 40.
gawd im old.
not many survive this game to my age.
theres still a war out there.


loph indians are as old as anything else.
aya indians have no monopoly on time or trips.

a new animal has risen,
hyper smart hybrids with education, experience, and self supplied.
with modern communications and equipment,
the modern stoned age, exceeds the stone age.

the wise would be well advised to learn from the ancients,
and then exceed them.
^ its our duty.

You claimed to be better then the shamans at what they do - which is healing. Curandero is Spanish for "healer." So you implied that you help more people then they do, which I have a feeling is not true, since you wont give any examples. (curanderos and shamans I know often treat 30-40 people a week as well - were you claiming to offer more then they do? If so, that is impressive you can helps o many people with healing so regularly!)

This documentary is very close to what most people could expect seeking treatment in Peru. It follows 8 people to see if any of them find healing - if you get better results more consistently then this shows, then maybe you have a gift. If you dont get the same results as consistently as these guys, no biggie. Most people dont because most people arent shamans.... But might be a good idea to stop claiming you are so much better then them unless the results people get with you are way better then what this video shows.

Shamans dont offer trips to people though.... They offer medicine. Many dont even use psychedelics at all. So I have a feeling you are talking about something totally different and assuming it is similar because you dont know better.

BTW - since you count casualties - how many have you had?

Why are you so obsessed with indians and race? You keep arguing with yourself that they arent the best, but no one else claimed they were the best.... I actually prefer San Pedro to Ayahuasca as well - I think in most cases it gets results faster and with less difficulty.

As far as modern people exceeding traditional cultures... In some ways - maybe. But we are also destroying the planet kinda quickly.... So I wouldnt be so quick to claim we are better then others. I watch people living simply in the mountains and the jungle and one thing I always notice - compared to our modern society - they are much more happy and have way stronger communities. Of course we have things we could teach them, but there is also a lot we can learn from them. Everybody has something to teach - even if some people are too busy building up their egos to listen to anyone else....

 

[endlessness]

I ask you all to please ask yourselves what are you trying to achieve with your posts before posting.

Please dont turn this into a "is anne better than shamans?" thread, otherwise this will quickly get removed. Can we get something productive out of this discussion?

As for that documentary, it seems wonderful and I enjoyed watching it, but that says nothing about the effectiveness of those shamans or medicine since it's a small sample size, and as mentioned before, confirmation bias prevents us from knowing what are the actual numbers and statistics. How many attempted documentaries were made that had bad results and therefore were not published? How many people did not get their conditions improved and we just don't hear about versus how many improved? Is it possible it changes depending on the shaman? Is it possible it changes depending on the plant or mixtures they consume? Is it possible it depends on disease? Is it possible it depends on the year, season, preconceived ideas of the person with the disease, genetics, etc etc?

And can we stop generalizing about what shamans do or dont do in such certain terms, considering it's such a diverse group?

 

[a1pha]

I ask you all to please ask yourselves what are you trying to achieve with your posts before posting.

Please dont turn this into a "is anne better than shamans?" thread, otherwise this will quickly get removed. Can we get something productive out of this discussion?

...

And can we stop generalizing about what shamans do or dont do in such certain terms, considering it's such a diverse group?

Yes, please. The word itself is loaded and frustrating.

I remember a fellow who called himself a shaman while dancing around the fire shaking his rattle. Next thing you know he's felling up a random lady drunk and high on something. Then there's this other person who doesn't call himself anything; yet he radiates a pure kind of spirituality like a bright light trying to escape the mortal realm. This person might not call herself a 'shaman' but I'd sure consider her something spiritual.

In the end who really cares about the label? Shaman / not a shaman -- Who cares? If they can guide/heal you in some way be open to them whatever the label. That label could very well be Corporate Shill by day sekret shaman by night...

 

[Doc Buxin]

...im wondering how many here have also sat thru the indian loph thing.
before aya, thats how the rest of us old people did it...

Been there, done that; bought the T-shirt, wore it out.

 

[Legarto Rey]

Super discourse, thanks all! With age I've grown more fond of the balanced approach.

Being a Western trained allopath(anesthesiology/critical care x 25y practice), I'm quite familiar with the real harm "modern medicine" can wreak. That said, should I suffer a gangrenous gallbladder, expanding intracranial hematoma, dread malignancy, orthopedic trauma, serious viremia....etc, I'd seek the nearest, serious/sober MD, initially.

Should the storm be weathered, deep consort with a qualified plant medicine purveyor(indigenous/modern, self/other) may well be indicated, helping to swipe the psyche and reconnect with the grace so lovingly allowing the entire "reality" experience.

Surely we're gifted an exceptional unfolding that can only be enhanced when we humbly receive and boldly manipulate this material/spiritual transpiring.

Absolutely cool that we can conjure(via modern teks expertly advanced by the likes of Anne Halonium and Denton Cooley) the profound mental and physiologic perturbations that allow, tripping/healing via plant entheogens AND high tech medicine/surgery!

With respect, we build upon a hallowed foundation. Safer, faster, more comfortable and reliable/ergonomic. The uncertainties NEVER cease, as the nature of "reality" mandates, yet we "evolve".

Hale the "Shamans", ancient/modern, plant/alchemical, physical/metaphysical. As always, forever, the progress comes in the fusion of the polarities. Long live the TEKS!

Peace

 

[DmnStr8]

Super discourse, thanks all! With age I've grown more fond of the balanced approach.

Being a Western trained allopath(anesthesiology/critical care x 25y practice), I'm quite familiar with the real harm "modern medicine" can wreak. That said, should I suffer a gangrenous gallbladder, expanding intracranial hematoma, dread malignancy, orthopedic trauma, serious viremia....etc, I'd seek the nearest, serious/sober MD, initially.

Should the storm be weathered, deep consort with a qualified plant medicine purveyor(indigenous/modern, self/other) may well be indicated, helping to swipe the psyche and reconnect with the grace so lovingly allowing the entire "reality" experience.

Surely we're gifted an exceptional unfolding that can only be enhanced when we humbly receive and boldly manipulate this material/spiritual transpiring.

Absolutely cool that we can conjure(via modern teks expertly advanced by the likes of Anne Halonium and Denton Cooley) the profound mental and physiologic perturbations that allow, tripping/healing via plant entheogens AND high tech medicine/surgery!

With respect, we build upon a hallowed foundation. Safer, faster, more comfortable and reliable/ergonomic. The uncertainties NEVER cease, as the nature of "reality" mandates, yet we "evolve".

Hale the "Shamans", ancient/modern, plant/alchemical, physical/metaphysical. As always, forever, the progress comes in the fusion of the polarities. Long live the TEKS!

Peace

:thumb_up:

 

[travsha]

Real example of people mixing shamanism with modern medicine using the benefits of both traditions:

Takiwasi is run by 2 doctors who are also curanderos.

 

[anne halonium]

You claimed to be better then the shamans at what they do .

BTW - since you count casualties - how many have you had?

never made those claims.
you did.
thanx.flattered.
i get enough of wild praise feedback as it is,
its not what im here for.

im here to raise the bar on the new age hallucinogenic experience and grow.
( too smart and too much tits to play limbo!)

as far as casualties, enough to know im honest about it.
save and compare.
anyone doling out meaningful amounts of trips, is gonna have them.
a shaman W/O is called a pollyanna .
as mono-anna , im a realist.

ill offer you this song travsha........

ill be long dead by the time your my age.
if you survive as long as i did,
channel me with that tune, and a fist of dry lophs( maybe 2050 -ish?) and well talk......8)

 

[anon_003]

Let me preface this post by saying that Anne Halonium is a rockstar. I so deeply appreciate you, Anne Halonium.

I think it would be sheer folly to disregard what thousands of years of shamanistic practice has learned us.

Keeping that in mind, it is also true that our communities, problems/ailments, and lifestyles have changed drastically since the times when indigenous shamans honed their craft.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT if you neglect modern medicine. I don't care who you are. We invented vaccines. We have antibiotics. We can effectively fight against cancer. We can perform organ transplants. We can land a rover on mars.

If you ignore these truths, you are ignoring the same methodologies that made shamanism what it is. Hypothesis, trial, and error. Shamanism is a science of behavior, result, psychology.

Like AH said, THE FIRST STEP to healing yourself is modern medicine. Perhaps mental illness may get some sort of a pass at this point in our evolution, but psychology and psychiatry are getting at something.

To me, shamanism still carries on in the modern day, naturally. Just like so many ancient cultures practiced in isolation, shamanism is a natural psychological pattern of culture. At some point, people are going to have to emulate people, to LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES. LEARN FROM THEIR SUFFERING. To me, the shaman is someone who eats bad vibes. They are the ones who pick up on some drunken *sshat at a party, eat the prudishness and the dickishness, and transform the interaction into a positive one. Shamans would never want anyone to feel the way they have, so they prevent particular psychological responses from happening. People mimic the shamans response to turmoil, which heals them.

I think everyone displays shamanistic tendencies, to varying degrees. For instance, I think of my dad as one of my main personal shamans. He knows exactly how to make me relax and feel good about myself, which inspires positive change on my behalf. A lot of the time though, he gives tough love sorts of talks in a very similar fashion to ayahuasca. Some other role models/shamans for me are Genesis P. Orridge and David Bowie; they both remind me to be as ridiculous and glamorous as possible, and take immense pleasure in freaking people out. I get a serious *charge* from their music that just wipes away bad vibes. They make me feel happy and liberated for being exactly who I am, and coming from these people this gives me insane pleasure. These people have healed me and inspired me to turn something ugly about my modern life into something cool and euphoric... ecstatic even.

These are the people who you try to emulate in tough situations, where there is no traditional guidance. What would Jesus do? Shamans take the form in our modern culture in psychologists, musicians, artists, celebrities, movie stars, poets, etc. I almost feel like each shaman is his own archetype.

This is the fundamental role I think of as the shaman. The cool guy, the wise guy. The archetypical grandparent. The cheerleader.

Now that we have so many professions, I just feel that instead of shamanism dying.... it is just becoming less refined. Who says there is only one kind of healer?


EDIT: Some interesting reading on what could be called modern shamanism might include Techniques of Modern Shamanism by Phil Hine. It deals a lot with increasing sensitivities of senses and focuses around trance states.

 

[dreamer042]

We invented vaccines.

...and filled them with neurotoxins.

We have antibiotics.

Which create even more treatment resistant strains of bacteria.

We can effectively fight against cancer.

While lowering quality of life and increasing risk of mortality.

We can perform organ transplants.

Substantially elevating risk for development of a variety of cancers.

We can land a rover on mars.

Admittedly this is pretty cool, it also has nothing to do with 'modern medicine'. In addition, this project diverted $2.5 billion that could have been used toward earth-based problem solving, like say medical research for example.

Don't get me wrong here though, modern medical technology is pretty amazing really. We have extended general length and quality of life to a high degree, but as long as it is based in a for profit capitalist system, there is going to be intentional corruption, misreporting, misdiagnosis, malpractice, and a general lack of adequate care/compassion/ethics/morality in favor of the financial bottom line.

I'd suggest the sensible approach when facing disease would be to look to lifestyle changes first: eating a healthy diet, drinking plenty of clean water, learning to manage and minimize stress, getting plenty of rest, engaging in exercise, practising meditation and yoga, using plant medicines, taking high quality vitamins and supplements, spending time in nature, maintaining healthy relationships, etc... etc... etc... Then and only then, if necessary, look to both modern medical intervention and alternative medicine therapies (including shamans) with thorough critical thinking, extensive research, and healthy skepticism.