Shamanism

[ijahdan]

With regards to shamanic healing, I always assumed it was a combination of herbal medicine and the channelling a higher power, God or 'The Source', whatever you conceive it to be, through the shaman to the patient.

This is something which occurs in most religions, including Christianity, although it seems to have fallen by the wayside in modern times. I read the New Testament for the first time a couple of years ago and was surprised to find these early Christians being possessed by the Holy Spirit and thenceforth having the power to heal the sick, amongst other things. It is implied that this was a fundamental aspect to becoming a Christian. Not sure how this changed over the last couple of millenia...

Christian priests also occupy a similar position in their communities as do shamans, living somewhat apart from other people, sometimes practising celibacy, giving advice and counsel etc. Surely in the past they would have been called on to try and cure diseases too, in conjunction with the medicines of that time, which would have all been plant based.

I imagine the other big mainstream religions also employed this kind of faith healing on a wider scale in the past.

So I was thinking what really is the difference between this and shamanic healing?

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

The perspectives you describe are fairly common ones.... I dont necessarily agree with them, but I understand where they come from and why people would see things that way.

To me keeping your medicine from outsiders because of race or because they offered you money feels wrong (turn down the money if you want to, but not the person I say!). They probably need healing just as much as anyone else. If you really want to restrict who can partake in your ceremony, personally the only restriction that would maybe make sense to me is: only allow sick people to attend.

When someone is sick they dont care what their skin color is, or what yours is, and they dont care if they have to pay.... As long as they can afford. They just want healing, and I think it feels wrong to deny them that for superficial reasons. That is just me though - each person has to make their own choices about what is right for them/

Your right and that makes perfect sense...

I guess I'm just going to have to see first hand for myself and make an assessment...

I see the potential for good and bad on the topic..

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

With regards to shamanic healing, I always assumed it was a combination of herbal medicine and the channelling a higher power, God or 'The Source', whatever you conceive it to be, through the shaman to the patient.

This is something which occurs in most religions, including Christianity, although it seems to have fallen by the wayside in modern times. I read the New Testament for the first time a couple of years ago and was surprised to find these early Christians being possessed by the Holy Spirit and thenceforth having the power to heal the sick, amongst other things. It is implied that this was a fundamental aspect to becoming a Christian. Not sure how this changed over the last couple of millenia...

Christian priests also occupy a similar position in their communities as do shamans, living somewhat apart from other people, sometimes practising celibacy, giving advice and counsel etc. Surely in the past they would have been called on to try and cure diseases too, in conjunction with the medicines of that time, which would have all been plant based.

I imagine the other big mainstream religions also employed this kind of faith healing on a wider scale in the past.

So I was thinking what really is the difference between this and shamanic healing?

The entheogens...

The plant medicines...

Shamanic healing is not faith based...

When an ayahuascquero takes yagé, then sings into a person's stomach, then is able to say "you have stomach parasites" and then gives the patient a plant that contains alkaloids that kill parasites, this is actual medicine...does it matter that the shaman had to use Entheogenic synesthesia rather than sonography to detect the parasites?

(It could be as simple as when you make a sound at a specific frequency, and emit it at a person, if the have parasites they have a red glow in reaction to the sound, if not they have a blue reaction....or maybe the shaman literally can see the parasites, just like jungle sonography...

There was a documentary on YouTube, a man from Australia and his wife, the shaman diagnosed that the man had stomach parasites and that his wife was pregnant with a boy...when they got back to Australia this was confirmed, they named their baby boy "shaman"...I wish I could find the damn thing, it's been years since I've seen it, any way I'll try to find it...

I think shamanism is almost antithetical to faith healing...

There is no faith involved with shamanism, only experiance.



-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Found it!

It's 46 minutes in!

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.google.com

45 minutes n or 46 minutes in...

I would say if you watch from 45 minutes in, and watch for at least ten minutes, you will see all the examples which I mentioned.

At 47 minutes 40 seconds he tells you about what happened when they returned to Australia.

-eg

 

[travsha]

With regards to shamanic healing, I always assumed it was a combination of herbal medicine and the channelling a higher power, God or 'The Source', whatever you conceive it to be, through the shaman to the patient.

This is something which occurs in most religions, including Christianity, although it seems to have fallen by the wayside in modern times. I read the New Testament for the first time a couple of years ago and was surprised to find these early Christians being possessed by the Holy Spirit and thenceforth having the power to heal the sick, amongst other things. It is implied that this was a fundamental aspect to becoming a Christian. Not sure how this changed over the last couple of millenia...

Christian priests also occupy a similar position in their communities as do shamans, living somewhat apart from other people, sometimes practising celibacy, giving advice and counsel etc. Surely in the past they would have been called on to try and cure diseases too, in conjunction with the medicines of that time, which would have all been plant based.

I imagine the other big mainstream religions also employed this kind of faith healing on a wider scale in the past.

So I was thinking what really is the difference between this and shamanic healing?

In a lot of ways Christianity is the worlds largest pagan religion - it really kinda stole from a bunch of other traditions and wrapped them all up into one mix-mash.... So some things about it will be similar to shamanic traditions. There are also some differences though.

A big difference is this organization the church that tries to rule over how other priests and all the followers live and worship. Another thing is the worship aspect - you are supposed to worship a God. Church also gets all its info from a book while shamanism gets all its perspectives from watching nature. Church also tries to conquer people and outlaw other religions ect.... So there end up being some differences there.

But the older you go back in the Bible, the more shamanic it seems.... Aboriginal Jews in the Torah are described calling in the 4 winds (medicine wheel) by waving a myrtle branch and calling on 4 animal spirits (bull, eagle, lion and human). They would fast in isolation, go on vision quests, work with psychedelics, sing and drum... Abraham first saw God in a oak tree and went around planting oaks everywhere after that, and Moses first saw God in an Acacia tree, and the Hebrews always worshiped high in the mountains.... There are some similarities to old shamanic traditions here (Tengri, Bon, Q'ero ect.....).

There are many shamanic type traditions, and they all have some things in common, but also many things different. Religions are a bit more structured and often power focused (ruling over others).

In some countries when missionaries arrive they try to convert local shamanic peoples by trying to convince them that prayer heals better then shamanic ceremony. Often becomes a competition. Many times the local religion or shamanism will get mixed into the Christianity there so it is easier to convert people....

EG is right too about the faith thing.... No faith needed in shamanism - if the shaman cant get things done they often replace him pretty quick.

 

[anne halonium]

sounds complex.

i just eat lots,
and feed everyone in sight lots,
and,
run with divine loph girl instinct.

IMO if ya have to think THAT much about a shaman and practice,
its a buzzkill and counterproductive.

at what point is one learning/ experiencing, or........ consumed?

 

[Jees]

...IMO if ya have to think THAT much about a shaman and practice, its a buzzkill and counterproductive...at what point is one learning/ experiencing, or........ consumed?

I know many who don't even dare to look at *the medicine* without the whole shebang surrounding it, for them it has no meaning (like in counterproductive) without. So what you anne call being-consumed by shamanism, they call utterly necessary, and rigorously consider your approach typical ... consuming. How ironic.

I feel different, I've found there's no other thing to rely on than ... myself. Sometimes I feel the need to make a protocol for a moment, and sometimes I feel aversion to it. But in both cases I feel to have done the right thing at that given moment. So I drop all references of how-to-frames, and build one that calls on the burning moment, whatever it is.

 

[anne halonium]

^ or
" freedom at point zero"

never was big on ceremony.
anything that needs that much ceremony,
and ya have to wonder...........

 

[zhoro]

^ or
" freedom at point zero"

never was big on ceremony.
anything that needs that much ceremony,
and ya have to wonder...........

One spiritual teacher said that ceremony is the kindergarten of spirituality. Yet, it is useful for those who need it.

 

[anne halonium]

^ i can accept that one.

and, we do need some kind of basics for noobs.

by the time someone gets to this forum,
they shouldnt be noobs for long.

if someone finds their way,
and becomes a master,
it is upon them to teach noobs.
and those masters should teach noobs the maximum , all spectra.

i always invite my students to exceed me.
(good)
^ thats independence , and progress and future.:thumb_up:

 

[Jees]

Does it not simply boils down to set and setting and what it takes? My mental vibe and surrounding does play a role in whats coming and I guess that goes for most. Sometimes there's little or no need for a tuning, other times I feel, in advance, I better flatten some wrinkles out before taking of.

How people do that best is their case, and patronizing that it is all not needed, or noob-ish, or that people shouldn't do it with a feather-n-rattle is cutting big corners, it's plain dogma IMO to say people shouldn't be singing a song if they wish or else they're just a noob. Only a fine hazy line here between wisdom and generalization/dogma?

Yes there's a danger in over-doing "preparation" till it becomes obsession and distraction, humans and their jimjams

Is it all really about just eating it? For me sometimes it is, that simple. Also because many times it doesn't matter how I come "there" and just being "there" is what it's about. So I see that point very clearly.

Then again I've times where I setup to take off, make my set-setting, and feel no need to go further whatsoever. The real noob is the one who compulsively needs to never-mind-always-just-go and brag about it?

I hope you dig the irony this time.
art by some ceremony loving noobs,
feel free to be above-all-that because it's flat out shamanic.

It does affect my vibe, that makes me a noob probably. Idk.
Maybe it's about (emotional) sensitivity to beauty?
I'm not with the mystic winers though, but not completely insensitive either.
Can really appreciate some shamanic details by times, not always, but there's something.

 

[ijahdan]

Cant figure out how to quote parts of someones post. The quote button just gives me the entire post. Im slowly getting more computer literate..

Anyway, I wanted to reply to a few things in EG and Travshas posts. Firstly, EG, you say that its the entheogens that make shamanism different to other spiritual based healing, but Ive heard that there are many shamans that dont use entheogens.

As to plant medicines, well all medicine was plant based until fairly recently, and many (most?) modern medicines were originally derived from plants, although these are now usually synthesised and/or chemically altered versions. Do all shamans make use of plant medicines? Dont some employ more esoteric techniques, 'sucking' the disease out of someone for instance.

And as to faith, Im sure people do have faith in their chosen shaman, who they might have travelled great distances to visit. Whether this faith has much to do with the healing is hard to prove either way.

You also say that some shamans are able to 'see' parasites in people in a similar way doctors can by using sonography, and then prescribe plant medicines to kill these parasites. This is basically the same as a western doctor using a machine to scan a person and then prescribing a chemical originally found in plants to cure it. So does this mean the doctor is a modern version of a shaman?

Dont get me wrong, I prefer using whole plant medicines to isolated chemicals myself and I believe much disease has its roots in spiritual problems, which needs a combination of treatment, medicine for body and the spirit. Ill take a look at the video you posted when I get access to wifi later on.

Travsha, I agree with your view of organised religion. It is mainly a means of controlling people by playing on their fears and claiming to be representatives of God on earth.

When talking about Christians, I meant really the early ones from before the establishment of the church in Rome, also those who travelled to Britain and Ireland, remaining free of Roman control for longer. These early missionaries didnt destroy pagan shrines as their successors did elsewhere in the world, but actually showed respect for the older beliefs, making their own pilgrimages to pagan holy wells, holy mountains etc.

As to the power of prayer, I assumed most cultures incorporated some type of prayer. Im sure the missionaries who went to America didnt impress the natives with their superior prayer power, more likely the fire power accompanying them.

My belief is that certain people, throughout the world, have an ability to channel divine energy, which can then be used in various ways, diagnosing and healing illness being one of them. In some cultures, this ability is recognised and nurtured and the person is trained to be a shaman. In other cultures, a similar person might train as a monk or a yogi. In some places they would probably be locked up!

 

[pitubo]

Cant figure out how to quote parts of someones post. The quote button just gives me the entire post. Im slowly getting more computer literate..

It's called the delete button. It's fastest if you select whole blocks of text and press delete. If you want to quote multiple postings in one reply, you can open a quoted reply to each individual posting in a different browser tab and then copy & paste your reply together with the pruned quote into one tab to preview and post.

Anyway, it's great that you didn't quote and indiscriminately leave the whole quoted post in with your reply. Too many people do that and IMHO it pollutes the thread flow.

 

[ijahdan]

Thanks. Im doing all this on a phone so no delete button. Think theres a way to do it but a bit more fiddly.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Cant figure out how to quote parts of someones post. The quote button just gives me the entire post. Im slowly getting more computer literate..

Anyway, I wanted to reply to a few things in EG and Travshas posts. Firstly, EG, you say that its the entheogens that make shamanism different to other spiritual based healing, but Ive heard that there are many shamans that dont use entheogens.

As to plant medicines, well all medicine was plant based until fairly recently, and many (most?) modern medicines were originally derived from plants, although these are now usually synthesised and/or chemically altered versions. Do all shamans make use of plant medicines? Dont some employ more esoteric techniques, 'sucking' the disease out of someone for instance.

And as to faith, Im sure people do have faith in their chosen shaman, who they might have travelled great distances to visit. Whether this faith has much to do with the healing is hard to prove either way.

You also say that some shamans are able to 'see' parasites in people in a similar way doctors can by using sonography, and then prescribe plant medicines to kill these parasites. This is basically the same as a western doctor using a machine to scan a person and then prescribing a chemical originally found in plants to cure it. So does this mean the doctor is a modern version of a shaman?

Dont get me wrong, I prefer using whole plant medicines to isolated chemicals myself and I believe much disease has its roots in spiritual problems, which needs a combination of treatment, medicine for body and the spirit. Ill take a look at the video you posted when I get access to wifi later on.

Travsha, I agree with your view of organised religion. It is mainly a means of controlling people by playing on their fears and claiming to be representatives of God on earth.

When talking about Christians, I meant really the early ones from before the establishment of the church in Rome, also those who travelled to Britain and Ireland, remaining free of Roman control for longer. These early missionaries didnt destroy pagan shrines as their successors did elsewhere in the world, but actually showed respect for the older beliefs, making their own pilgrimages to pagan holy wells, holy mountains etc.

As to the power of prayer, I assumed most cultures incorporated some type of prayer. Im sure the missionaries who went to America didnt impress the natives with their superior prayer power, more likely the fire power accompanying them.

My belief is that certain people, throughout the world, have an ability to channel divine energy, which can then be used in various ways, diagnosing and healing illness being one of them. In some cultures, this ability is recognised and nurtured and the person is trained to be a shaman. In other cultures, a similar person might train as a monk or a yogi. In some places they would probably be locked up!

So does this mean the doctor is a modern version of a shaman?

To a point yes, shamans were the first doctors, and doctors do play a role similar to that of a shaman...

However modern medical doctors have completely eliminated the spiritual aspect of their practice, which may in a way may be the source of a good deal of the negatives involved with modern medicine...

How Psychedelic Drugs Can Help Patients Face Death (Published 2012)

For a small group of researchers and their patients facing death, psychedelic drugs aren’t a hippie palliative. They’re a new way to approach the most dire time of life.

www.nytimes.com

In the link above it discusses using psychedelics to help terminal patients face death, this is an example of modern doctors becoming more like their shamanic predecessors.

EG, you say that its the entheogens that make shamanism different to other spiritual based healing, but Ive heard that there are many shamans that dont use entheogens.

I said it was the entheogens and/or plant medicines....

even non-Entheogenic shamans still use plant medicines.

(The chart attached shows Navajo plant medicines)

-eg

 

[travsha]

sounds complex.

i just eat lots,
and feed everyone in sight lots,
and,
run with divine loph girl instinct.

IMO if ya have to think THAT much about a shaman and practice,
its a buzzkill and counterproductive.

at what point is one learning/ experiencing, or........ consumed?

Depends on your intention.... If you just want to get high then all you need is to eat lots.

If you want something more, then ceremony can be very helpful. Depends on what you want from the ceremony. If the shaman doesnt work with plant medicines, then eating a lot doesnt work, because they arent eating anything. Shamanism is more then just getting high and playing with yourself. You probably have very different intentions going in then a shaman would.

Ceremony isnt very complicated though - they just sing, and that is the whole ceremony. Nothing else needed but songs. Pretty simple actually.

Thinking about things is good for everyone except those trying to stay willfully ignorant. Especially when helping sick people it is good to think about what you are doing so you can be both safe and effective.

 

[travsha]

Firstly, EG, you say that its the entheogens that make shamanism different to other spiritual based healing, but Ive heard that there are many shamans that dont use entheogens.

As to plant medicines, well all medicine was plant based until fairly recently, and many (most?) modern medicines were originally derived from plants, although these are now usually synthesised and/or chemically altered versions. Do all shamans make use of plant medicines? Dont some employ more esoteric techniques, 'sucking' the disease out of someone for instance.

And as to faith, Im sure people do have faith in their chosen shaman, who they might have travelled great distances to visit. Whether this faith has much to do with the healing is hard to prove either way.

Many shamans dont use psychoactives, but most use at least some herbal remedies. I have never heard of shamans where the plant does all the healing - the shaman always calls on spirits or channels spirits in some way and always participates - whether that is through sucking, singing, drumming, blowing smoke ect.....

I know people who didnt believe in anything and thought they would have a fun ride.... But ended up healing themselves instead. I know people who tried it in an effort to prove there was no spiritual side and it was all hallucinations, then came out saying they talked to God.... First time for me I was an atheist and talked to God. Belief isnt necessary. Belief might help, and some people have it, but not at all necessary.

You also say that some shamans are able to 'see' parasites in people in a similar way doctors can by using sonography, and then prescribe plant medicines to kill these parasites. This is basically the same as a western doctor using a machine to scan a person and then prescribing a chemical originally found in plants to cure it. So does this mean the doctor is a modern version of a shaman?

Doctors cant see emotions, trauma or energy or spirits. Shamans see these things as parasites. Generally doctors and shamans excel at helping people with different problems. Also - often times the man made chemicals that were originally found in plants are less effective then the plant and have more side effects and also cost way more.... So not always an equal comparison.

Dont get me wrong, I prefer using whole plant medicines to isolated chemicals myself and I believe much disease has its roots in spiritual problems, which needs a combination of treatment, medicine for body and the spirit. Ill take a look at the video you posted when I get access to wifi later on.

Travsha, I agree with your view of organised religion. It is mainly a means of controlling people by playing on their fears and claiming to be representatives of God on earth.

When talking about Christians, I meant really the early ones from before the establishment of the church in Rome, also those who travelled to Britain and Ireland, remaining free of Roman control for longer. These early missionaries didnt destroy pagan shrines as their successors did elsewhere in the world, but actually showed respect for the older beliefs, making their own pilgrimages to pagan holy wells, holy mountains etc.

As to the power of prayer, I assumed most cultures incorporated some type of prayer. Im sure the missionaries who went to America didnt impress the natives with their superior prayer power, more likely the fire power accompanying them.

My belief is that certain people, throughout the world, have an ability to channel divine energy, which can then be used in various ways, diagnosing and healing illness being one of them. In some cultures, this ability is recognised and nurtured and the person is trained to be a shaman. In other cultures, a similar person might train as a monk or a yogi. In some places they would probably be locked up!

I know of missionaries who try to convince locals to convert so that they can be saved by prayer. In the Q'ero community that I work with some missionaries are now trying to enter and do this. Really sad to watch, and very sneaky of the missionaries. Only saving grace so far is that it doesnt seem to work as well as their shamanic healing so luckily the Q'ero are great healers and are still holding on to their culture for now.

 

[anne halonium]

willfully ignorant. Especially when helping sick people

it would be willfully ignorant if i was pretending to cure people while tripping.
im not tammy faye baker.

thats the difference travsha,
im not swilling cool aid and becoming a doctor for $.
or even pretending.........
( yet, its what YOUR defending)

i can only suspect with a spin like that,
that your resume is on a desk in the HR dept at fox news awaiting review.

ok , since you cant claim miracle healings now,
your just gonna ASSUME that anyone NOT in line with your medicine show dogma on this,
is a heathen of some kind?
you cant drink enough cool aid to earn that kind of raw hubris.
if your teachers are teaching you that, my condolences.
thats a absolute insult and diss to anyone in the community who doesnt share your view.

seriously, your shaman aint a god if your learning that kinda POV!

you should come back and read this stuff in a few years travsha and see how you sound.

 

[travsha]

willfully ignorant. Especially when helping sick people

it would be willfully ignorant if i was pretending to cure people while tripping.
im not tammy faye baker.

thats the difference travsha,
im not swilling cool aid and becoming a doctor for $.
or even pretending.........
( yet, its what YOUR defending)

i can only suspect with a spin like that,
that your resume is on a desk in the HR dept at fox news awaiting review.

ok , since you cant claim miracle healings now,
your just gonna ASSUME that anyone NOT in line with your medicine show dogma on this,
is a heathen of some kind?
you cant drink enough cool aid to earn that kind of raw hubris.
if your teachers are teaching you that, my condolences.
thats a absolute insult and diss to anyone in the community who doesnt share your view.

seriously, your shaman aint a god if your learning that kinda POV!

you should come back and read this stuff in a few years travsha and see how you sound.

When did I say people should become a doctor for money?
When did I say anyone is a heathen?

Seems like you are just making things up now..... Weird and creepy of you, but to clear the air - I dont think money is necessary, and I dont think anyone is a heathen.

But it does sound like you dont know much about shamanism.... (which is fine - there are things I dont know about as well) And it does sound like you have a different intention with your drug use then shamans have in their ceremonies. It is fine to have different intentions and I am not saying anything is wrong with your intention, I am just saying it is different then a shamans intention. I am saying you are confusing getting high with shamanism, and really the two are different things.

Also - nobody teaches me anything or tells me what to believe. All the "teachers" I have only offer you the practice and the medicine, and they let the medicine and the spirits and life in general teach you. So learning this way isnt about someone teaching you or telling you something - it is about experience. Guess that is hard for you to understand though....

Keep making wild assumptions and claims if you want - they arent true, but I guess it shows how you operate.