Significantly increasing DMT content of DMT-plants?

[SKA]

Allright from what SWIM read he thinks it is best to try and grow Psychotria viridis near a window, with artificial light to give it a little more hours of light per day in the short dark winter days.

Erowid says the DMT content of P.Viridis foliage varies between 0,1 and 1% DMT. Let's see how we can significantly increase that percentage.
This Erowid article explains that P.Viridis foliage harvested at Dawn and before Dusk were found to contain significantly more DMT than P.Viridis Foliage harvested during Midnight and from 10:00 am on during the hot parts of the day.

This suggests that DMT is formed in the plant when the Sun rises and when it sets. So perhaps, next to feeding your P.Viridis alot of Tryptophan, playing around with the lightlevels and times might be a way to push the DMT content higher.

Perhaps you could use artificial "dimmable" lights to fake dusk/before sunrise light levels for a prolonged time, so you give the P.viridis extra time to notice the dusk-like lightlevels and form DMT. If you kept it in this prolonged, fake-dusk/dawn and then harvest the foliage, perhaps it will have significantly raised the DMT content.

According to that Erowid article I linked to it should make quite a significant difference.

 

[Infundibulum]

WTF guys, you know that amino acids like tryptophan are not absorbed from the roots, right?

So how are you going to feed the plant with tryptophan? Electroporation?

 

[SKA]

WTF guys, you know that amino acids like tryptophan are not absorbed from the roots, right?

So how are you going to feed the plant with tryptophan? Electroporation?

So does that mean that DMT plants take SOME chemical out of the soil, converts that into tryptophan itself and in turn metabolises that into DMT?

SWIM is by no means a PhytoChemist, so if anyone knows more about what nutrients plants draw from the soil that they eventually metabolise into DMT that would greatly help.

 

[Infundibulum]

WTF guys, you know that amino acids like tryptophan are not absorbed from the roots, right?

So how are you going to feed the plant with tryptophan? Electroporation?

So does that mean that DMT plants take SOME chemical out of the soil, converts that into tryptophan itself and in turn metabolises that into DMT?

SWIM is by no means a PhytoChemist, so if anyone knows more about what nutrients plants draw from the soil that they eventually metabolise into DMT that would greatly help.

Yes. But plants only take micronutrients from the ground - Very basic things like nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium (i.e. the three main nutrients often supplied in all fertilisers) as well as calcium, magnesium, copper, iron etc etc. Plants also get their carbon from the carbon dioxide from the air.

Plants do not take any macromolecules from the roots. All the macromolecules from proteins to lipids to sugars to nucleic acids to secondary metabolites (dmt is in this last very broad category) are synthesised by the plant. Plants, just as all of the living organisms are truly amazing chemists.

All that is to say that you cannot feed a dmt precursor to the roots; for the plant, the "precursors" it uses to make dmt are carbon from the atmosphere and nitrogen from the soil and they are the very same precursors for most of the molecules it synthesises.

Of course there are ways to "feed" macromolecules or dmt precursors to the plants but these involve more special techniques.

 

[SKA]

Interresting. So what about injecting tryptophan into the main stem of a DMT plant? Or does it require far more complicated ways of administration?

It would be sweet if a Tryptophan injection, not too long before harvesting, significantly increased the DMT -content of a plant.
But is it possible?

 

[Infundibulum]

Injection would work in theory if one wishes to feed the plant with tryptophan. Whether this would ever convert to dmt or whether the plant would survive the injection (even house-keeping molecules can be toxic at non-physiological levels) is very questionable.

It's worth a try however but I wouldn't put my money on that.

 

[polytrip]

The plants probably produce DMT for a reason. Maybe it's a sort of natural insecticide or something.

I have noticed that when you grow basil, it actually becomes smellier and tastier when insects and snails are eating from the plants. They will immediately start making more of this insecticide, wich are the essential oils wich makes basil such a fantastic herb.

If you choose a plant to grow, try to find out if it has 'natural enemies'. Maybe if there is a local equivalent of that 'enemy', you can try to expose your plant to it.

That would probably stimulate the plant to defend itself ferociously.

 

[Infundibulum]

The plants probably produce DMT for a reason. Maybe it's a sort of natural insecticide or something.

I have noticed that when you grow basil, it actually becomes smellier and tastier when insects and snails are eating from the plants. They will immediately start making more of this insecticide, wich are the essential oils wich makes basil such a fantastic herb.

If you choose a plant to grow, try to find out if it has 'natural enemies'. Maybe if there is a local equivalent of that 'enemy', you can try to expose your plant to it.

That would probably stimulate the plant to defend itself ferociously.

All very good points polytrip!

As far as the injections are concerned, I'd really love to see someone doing it. It's a joke, basically because it is very very difficult; have you ever tried injecting a cactus (like some bogus reports "claim" on the internet)? You insert the syringe in the cactus, you push the plunge and you see that the plunge does not move a single mm!.

Unless you hit a "vein" in the plant (xylem or phloem) you'll have great difficulty "pushing" anything in a plant. Plant circulatory systems work in different ways than the animals' and rely on osmosis and negative pressure due to water evaporation from the leaves to move the liquids. This is very different from the pump-induced movement of blood in animals.

 

['Coatl]

I totally agree Infundibulum, "Doping" cacti or any other plant is just silly, focus on genetics instead of crazy stuff like that!

 

[SKA]

The plants probably produce DMT for a reason. Maybe it's a sort of natural insecticide or something.

I have noticed that when you grow basil, it actually becomes smellier and tastier when insects and snails are eating from the plants. They will immediately start making more of this insecticide, wich are the essential oils wich makes basil such a fantastic herb.

If you choose a plant to grow, try to find out if it has 'natural enemies'. Maybe if there is a local equivalent of that 'enemy', you can try to expose your plant to it.

That would probably stimulate the plant to defend itself ferociously.

I know this hypothesis, however I kind of expect natural plant insecticide to be toxic. Also it doesn't seem to protect DMT plants from herbivores: DMT is non-toxic and totally inactive when consumed orally without a MAOI.

For instance; Datura and Brugmansia and it's sinister cousins are well protected against herbivores: I pity the poor herbivore that chose Datura stramonium as a meal. It is also assumable Mescaline cacti are well protected from thirsty desert herbivores; They produce alot more mescaline in dry periods; when herbvores are more often foraging for cactu to get water and food.

However deer eat amanita mushrooms, Gorillas and chimps dig up and eat Iboga root, Jaguars eat Caapi, Catterpillas and snales LOVE brugmansia leaves. And human beings just love and enshrine many of these tryptamine bearing plants and fungi.
So it doesn't seem likely for psychedelic tryptamines to be produced as protection against herbivores and insects.
The role of DMT and other psychoactive alkaloids puzzle me.


I guess a good way to improve DMT yields is to find out what soiltypes and climates the plants richest in DMT grow in and recreate that.
Maybe it seems silly to SWIY to "dope up plants", but SWIM sees it as really the only worthwhile way of cultivating DMT-plants in Northern Europe.
Processing piles of Phalaris, having to buy massive quantities of ether, and other solvents to defat + possibly other solvents for having to filter out gramine.....is just not worth the money and trouble to SWIM. If where SWIY lives Mimosa Hostilis and Acacias grow easily, then consider SWIYself very lucky. SWIM doesn't have that option where he lives.

So no wonder SWIM was looking for a way to "spice up" an easy growing spice plant that can survive dark, cold winters indoors.

 

['Coatl]

Catterpillas and snales LOVE brugmansia leaves.

Insects are not affected by the compounds in Brugmansia or Datura, Bees even make honey from these plants (and the honey carries the effects).

So it doesn't seem likely for psychedelic tryptamines to be produced as protection against herbivores and insects.
The role of DMT and other psychoactive alkaloids puzzle me.

I think it's simple. Those compounds are there so we can talk to plants

God intended it this way.

I guess a good way to improve DMT yields is to find out what soiltypes and climates the plants richest in DMT grow in and recreate that.
Maybe it seems silly to SWIY to "dope up plants", but SWIM sees it as really the only worthwhile way of cultivating DMT-plants in Northern Europe.

I'm talking about chemical doping being silly. I think you should focus on genetics, not soil, climate or anything else. Genetics!

So no wonder SWIM was looking for a way to "spice up" an easy growing spice plant that can survive dark, cold winters indoors.

Again.... grow Psychotria!

 

[polytrip]

DMT might be toxic to SOME animals. It probably is, considering it's powerfull effects in humans.

 

[bufoman]

DMT and other tryptamines have strong anti-insect properties. Virola calophylla has 5-MeO-DMT and similar indoles which have antifeedant effects on insects. The also can be toxic to insects as Insects use trace amines to control motor activity in much the way mammals utilize acetylcholine. SWIM has done experiments with DPT and its effects of crickets. It causes paralysis and death.

Not every compound in a plant must be active, or therefore have a reason. Plants that take risks (expend energy to make novel chemicals) are favored as they are better able to evolve and adapt to their environment.

Also the indole alkaloids in Desmanthus illinoensis have been found to have growth inhibiting properties. There are many many different reasons why a plant may have a given chemical present.

There is a variety of literature on the role of environment (I mean this broadly) on the effect of alkaloid expression. It is definetly plant dependent. Tons exist on phalaris and indole alkaloids.

 

[SKA]

DMT and other tryptamines have strong anti-insect properties. Virola calophylla has 5-MeO-DMT and similar indoles which have antifeedant effects on insects. The also can be toxic to insects as Insects use trace amines to control motor activity in much the way mammals utilize acetylcholine. SWIM has done experiments with DPT and its effects of crickets. It causes paralysis and death.

Not every compound in a plant must be active, or therefore have a reason. Plants that take risks (expend energy to make novel chemicals) are favored as they are better able to evolve and adapt to their environment.

Also the indole alkaloids in Desmanthus illinoensis have been found to have growth inhibiting properties. There are many many different reasons why a plant may have a given chemical present.

There is a variety of literature on the role of environment (I mean this broadly) on the effect of alkaloid expression. It is definetly plant dependent. Tons exist on phalaris and indole alkaloids.

Ooh this is very very interresting to know. That defenitely helps. Where did SWIY learn that? Can SWIY recommend any of said literature?

So if one would grow a DMT plant in a greenhouse full of insects, might that increase the DMT content?
Maybe if someone would grow 6 dmt plants, all of them the same species and put 3 of them in a separate containment full of insects. And after harvesting, this someone, who isn't me, could check if the insect-exposed DMT plants yield more DMT or not.
Worth a try I guess.


But this someone still hasn't decided with what species of DMT bearing plants he will try and cultivate

 

[Infundibulum]

Well said bufoman, very nice explanation!

So, to recap, it is pretty obvious to everyone that all most of the traits (in this case the desired "trait" is the dmt content of the plant) is a result of the combination of genetics and environment.

It is a more cumbersome task trying to find good genetics. Can you imagine, you find a P.viridis with good genetics but this plant also needs a certain environment for the expression of the good genetics; e.g. it can produce massive amounts in its native environment but it can produce very limited when grown somewhere else.

For this reason it is possibly easier to try and find "triggers" of dmt production. In the latter case even plants with suboptimal genetics will do pretty good if stimulated. In the current example, if dmt is used from P.viridis to deter insects, then an insect infestation may do it. If dmt is there to deter weeds then grow your psychotrias in the presence of competitor weeds.

If one has studied very well the life and environment of P.viridis then can make good guesses of why is dmt there and how it is triggered.

 

[SKA]

SWIM has decided this alkaloid increasing experiment should be done with a couple of indoor Psychotria Viridis plants.

And indeed SWIM is seeking to learn more about DMT production triggers.
So perhaps SWIM should start growing 1 P.Viridis in an insect infested terarrium, another in a terarrium full of ompetative weeds and another just in an insect and weeds free terarrium and at the end test the difference in yield.

SWIM would do good learning more about P.Viridis' natural enviroment, competators and other natural enemies. SWIM would also do good learning more about general phyto chemistry.

 

[neuro_rocket]

Quite a bit of information has also been gathered on the alkaloid production of Phalaris grass (mainly because of Phalaris Staggers).

"Seasonal and weather patterns also appear to affect alkaloid concentration, as most toxicity occurs in autumn and in times of drought. Regrowth after grazing or mowing also shows a considerable increase in alkaloids."
(Taken from the Wikipedia article on Phalaris grass)

So if you stress the plant by cutting it and decreasing the water you give it, the alkaloids should increase.

Trout also has a lot of information on Phalaris and increasing the alkaloid content on his article about the genus phalaris. Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout

 

[SKA]

So if other DMT plants, like Phalaris, produce extra DMT when it's mowed or grazed this seems to indicate that DMT may also have a herbivore-repellant role.

A P. viridis grown in a teraarium full of competitor weeds, a p. viridis grown in a terrarium full of insects, a p. viridis grown in a terarrium that is constantly trimmed, mowed down and underwatered and a p. viridis in a terarrium without any of these possible DMT-triggers.

SWIM now wants to know: do P. Viridis Bushes take up alot of space? And if they do, might they survive if SWIM kept them somehwat Bonzay'D?(so the produce less stems and put most energy in growing DMT rich foliage?)

If SWIM knows the answer to that he should start ordering some Psychitria Viridis Seeds.

 

[neuro_rocket]

Psychotria Viridis is reputably very hard to grow from seed.
If SWIM was SWIY he'd buy a cutting.

 

[Ginkgo]

Psychotria Viridis is reputably very hard to grow from seed.
If SWIM was SWIY he'd buy a cutting.

P. viridis is in fact not hard to grow from seed at all, although it can take up to 6 months for the seeds to germinate. It is also important that the seeds are somewhat fresh, if not, the germination rate is considerably lower.

Phalaris arundinacea reportedly yields more alkaloids if the plant is stressed, such as giving them too much water, too little water or peeling of parts. I believe this could be the case with other DMT containing plants too, but I would never torture my sacred Psychotria viridis to get more alkaloids.