Sleep and energy

[Traged]

Hello fellow humans,

I have long term bad relationship with sleep. It could boil down to societal issues - I don't think that we have habits in place for good sleep as a society. Add in some of my unfortunate habits and my restless mind... you are creating recipe for disaster. Don't forget to include some other imbalance.

Now I have been living with weird and definitely not normal and good sleep patterns for a long time. Currently I have been learning piano and in order to practice consistently I have to bee well rested. It will help other things too, but my progress meter will be, can I consistently practice for more than 1hour a day and being able to focus...

Today after work I had lied down and fell asleep basically slept for 5 hours - till 23:00. Which makes another issue - I feel relatively rested now. It is normal occurrence for me to have trouble falling asleep. Sometimes I lay in bed for hours, my mind racing. This might happen even if I am extremely tired. Many times it gets to ridiculous lengths when you start to count how many hours of sleep you will get and if it would not be better to not go to sleep... On the other hand I have trouble waking up. I can fall into such a deep sleep that alarm wont budge me and I will sleep thru it. It happened few times, not many. Getting going in the morning is extreme for me. After weekend comes I have another issue. I don't have alarm set, so I can recover and therefore I will sleep for extreme hours and wake up feeling all weird. Usually I sleep more than 12 hours on weekends. It happened before that I slept 16h...

Before anyone suggests that I go to bed early. I have tried that and I will lay in the dark for 6 hours. Which only makes me nervous

I start my day by coffee - currently. The I will have a cup of herbal tea. I don't eat anything until lunch - its school lunch - I work there (for two months I used to eat yoghurt - before it was nothing until lunch). Around 16:00 I drink a cup of organic cacao and milk with teaspoon or two of honey, and during the day I might have drunk some more coffee. With cacao I take some supplements, that would be vitamin C 100mg , Hericium extract 500mg, Mumio 250mg and capsule which contains Siberian ginseng 160mg, Ashwagandha 125mg,Licorice 100mg, Schisandra chinensis 100mg, Rhodiola rosea 83mg. Before I took also DMAE, Selene and Zinc but I have finished those few days ago. Then I eat late dinner, which is usually between 20:00 and 22:00 but might be earlier or later as well, it depends... The dinner in last few months is mostly either spaghetti with sauce or baked beans with 5 eggs. There were some variation like steak tartare for few days. I sweeten my tea with honey, 1-2 teaspoons per liter. I don't use sugar, and I eat anything sweet only in very rare cases - in last month I ate one chocolate bar. Sometimes I eat fruit but its not daily so I did not include it into description.

Most days I do 20min yoga focused on back and/or around 70 pushups (2 sets of 35). I have very healthy weight, but probably could use some more exercise and cardio.

Sometimes I take melatonin - but its rare.

So, any advice how to improve my sleep and energy levels? I am open to anything.

 

[Tripolation]

Hey Traged,

I feel ya buddy! I have had bad insomnia since I was a kid. I have some advice that I feel will help as they have helped me.

No coffee after 11am. No caffeine drinks like soda after 2pm. No sugar after 5pm. Try not to eat anything heavy before bed, watch your snacking. No screens at least an hour before bed, no computer, no phone, none of it. Consider using a blue light filter on all your devices. Room should be cool and pitch dark if possible. Bed is for sleeping and sex only. No eating, watching T.V, or even reading in bed. If you can't fall asleep get up and go read a book, find something rather boring to do or relaxing like a shower. If sleep just is not coming, sometimes just laying in bed allows for the body to rest at least, even if your mind is active, keep that in mind rather than pacing all night.

Melatonin is good. I enjoy some Sleepytime Tea every night. It's a chamomile blend tea. Lavender is excellent for sleep as well. I do take an over the counter sleep aid which helps me, although I wish I didn't have to take it so often. Maybe consider seeing a doctor and get a prescription sleep aid if the insomnia starts impacting your quality of life.

I meditate every night before bed. I clear my mind and ready myself for sleep. My meditation continues when I lay down for bed. I watch my breath, I don't follow thoughts and that helps quite a bit for me. It helps me to think of things I am grateful for as this relaxes me and the drowns out the troubled racing thoughts. You can try doing a full body scan, called Yoga Nidra. Lay down and go through your entire body with your mind. Go toe by toe all the way to the top of your head feeling each part of the body you are scanning. As you do this imagine each part of your body relaxing. Check out the link below for some guided meditations as an example. You can learn them and do them on your own. Look for the Yoga Nidra 61 point meditation. -> Guided Meditations -

You have to have a sleep ritual. This ritual signals your brain it's time to sleep. For me it starts about an hour before bed and it goes, lights dimmed, screens off, tea time, brush my teeth, splash some water on my face, meditate and lay down and do the Yoga Nidra. If you do the same thing every night it sets a schedule in your mind. Try to go to bed and get up about the same time everyday, even on weekends. Routine is important for sleep. Catching up on sleep doesn't work. A nap in the afternoon is ok if you have the opportunity, rare for me, but set an alarm so as not to sleep more than an hour or so.

Is your bed comfortable and have some good pillows? I spent good money to get the best bed and pillow I could and I could not have been happier. It was worth some extra dough to lay down on a really comfortable bed and super comfy pillows. Maybe also consider using a white noise machine or a fan while you sleep. I have one similar to this ->https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TMGCKS5?tag=chtrbr98316-20&th=1

I get pretty decent sleep now. I occasionally have some insomnia still but not at all like I used to. Not getting enough sleep was running my quality of life. Felt as though I was in a dream many days. Just out of it and grumpy and blah. I hope that some of this stuff may help you or give you some ideas. The military teaches sleeping techniques to soldiers as well, youtube that topic and you can see how they do it. Those guys have to sleep in trenches and in all sorts of bad conditions. I found that they are very similar to the yoga nidra.

Good luck with the sleeping! I hope you get some rest soon!

 

[Voidmatrix]

I've been dealing with regular bouts of insomnia since I was a kid. I'm pretty tired right now. Sleep health and hygiene is vitally important. I hope to get a handle on it at some point.

@Tripolation already made mention of some effective and great practices and habits. Kind of hard to top. However, it might be helpful to look into African Dream herbs (there are three, entada rheedii is my favorite of the three, kirkii is also very helpful and contributes BDNF). CBN is also very helpful according to anecdotes, small amounts of research, and my own personal experience. Edibles in general are very helpful for me. It's important to be mindful of the dose so as to avoid a cannabis hangover in the morning. This is relevant to CBN as well.

One love

 

[Jungleheart]

Do you think it's anxiety that's keeping you up? Not being able to sleep causes anxiety for me for sure and sometimes it takes me an hour to relax enough to fall asleep. The amount of effort I have to put into my routine to sleep is pretty crazy, but I am working on it. Exercise every day helps a lot. I am experimenting with different powders. Interested in what you think the cause is before I respond.

 

[blig-blug]

What I did to fix a similar issue was to get up at exactly the same hour everyday, no matter how tired I was, and without allowing myself to sleep during the day. This is not hard for long, because as tiredness accumulates for a few days, it starts becoming easy to go to bed at a reasonable time (in fact the body demands it). Whereas with the usual approach you mention of going to bed earlier, you won't be tired and so there's no reason why you would fall asleep. Also, once you get used to getting up at exactly the same hour every day, you will start waking up without an alarm many days.
I second the other suggestions that have been made here, but IME the key is this.
Also, look into the possibility that you could have sleep apnea. You mention your bodyweight is at a healthy level, so it's less likely, but it's still possible.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Look up sleep hygiene. Much of it has been mentioned already. Going to bed and getting up at the same time was most important for me. No more than one hour over on weekends, if that.

I had your problem my whole life, delayed sleep phase disorder. Now that I am retired, I am fighting advanced sleep phase disorder. I wake up too damn early. Sleep hygiene and a few fixes unique to this one have helped. Another thing which has helped me has been to have the intent using DMT to get in better touch with my dreams. Intent to remember them in the morning and other things as well in there.

Reading up on the subject, we all have stressful dreams. One reason for dreams is to remove fear and stress from things you experience as you file them away. However, some can recur and loop and that doesn't work perfectly . Then you can subconsciously dread sleep a little. Becoming aware of one of those can reduce it.

 

[yatyas314]

If you do not fall asleep in 20 minutes get out of bed in fact get out of your room. Your bedroom is for sex and sleeping and that's it. Also not every night is going to be great so don't make too big of a deal out of a bad nights rest it will just help the next night. If I am not asleep in 20 minutes I get up and read with as low of light as possible until I feel tired again and give it a shot again. I might repeat a couple times but its much better than a racing mind and feeling tortured in the one place that should provide peace and rest.
Y

Edit. I also journal and get those thoughts out of my brain and on paper.

 

[Traged]

No sugar after 5pm.

I don't eat sugar, and we wont count amount of honey that is in my tea - usually teaspoon per liter.

watch your snacking

No snacking, what I described is finite 95% of days.

No screens at least an hour before bed, no computer, no phone, none of it.

This, I will try to implement but it might be hard.

Is your bed comfortable and have some good pillows?

Currently not - I have moved, I will be ordering new bed shortly - cheap frame and much more expensive mattress (I find it really important). Before I slept on good mattress, issues were the same.

Maybe also consider using a white noise machine or a fan while you sleep.

This is also thing I am willing to try. There is some noise, its not loud but I am the type that gets distracted by it (I will find any device that makes noise and is not supposed to). I am not sure if it is the radiator pump or some kind of transformer - we will see when it get warmer.

I've been dealing with regular bouts of insomnia since I was a kid. I'm pretty tired right now. Sleep health and hygiene is vitally important. I hope to get a handle on it at some point.

I feel you brother, since elementary I was unable to fall asleep. Before I joined nexus, some time before I cured myself from depression using shrooms. I used to take Cyclopyrrolones but they weren't good. They were pretty much useless. I sometimes could not fall asleep anyway and there were instances of me running around with no memory of it - getting into argument with my mother for example.

However, it might be helpful to look into African Dream herbs (there are three, entada rheedii is my favorite of the three, kirkii is also very helpful and contributes BDNF).

Herbal way is one I find forever attractive, even thou best would be to solve it without external help.

Do you think it's anxiety that's keeping you up?

I don't remember anxiety. Its things like - great idea which fills me with energy and I would just jump up and started working on it. Or I will start thinking about RAID system for data preservation and how it works - that ended up by me going to check it - because I couldn't crack it at 3 am just with my head - its called parity boys...

What I did to fix a similar issue was to get up at exactly the same hour everyday, no matter how tired I was

Now, when I set my alarm and I don't have to wake up, I will sleep thru it. I kind of believe main issue is with circadian rhythm and clock getting screwed up. There were instances where I did not go to sleep, or basically started turning it around - going to sleep 2 hours later every day, then sleeping during day and finally I have arrived at my desired time of waking up rested. But then after few weeks it gets screwed again. Also I could not do it while working... Even thou with good timing in my current job maybe I could... (for some reason I come and go as I please)

I might repeat a couple times but its much better than a racing mind

This is the thing I will start doing today.


It is said that blind people have 25 hours circadian rhythm. Maybe screens and lack of daylight/sun did similar to us. At least for me it always feels like it moves, and never stops moving. I can slow it down sometimes, when I fix it - by the rotation explained higher - it will naturally keep moving, and after week or two I am again staying up till 2-3 am. Even if I was ready to sleep by 10pm.

Sometimes it doesn't matter how tired I am, I will just lay there.

 

[Jamie01]

Let me know when y’all figure it out cus I can’t sleep for anything and just wake up in constant night sweats. I can fall sleep just fine. In fact I’m always tired and have chronic fatigue but can’t stay asleep so I get like 3-5 hours a night on average and always have to move to the couch. Wake up for work at 4am 5 days a week so that doesn’t help.

It leaves me feeling more exhausted, irritable and angry.

It’s due to an auto immune disease but the labor doesn’t really solve the issue. I do also experience chronic sleep paralysis and have my entire life. Turns out it’s also more common with my condition.

Some things that help me are low dose muscimol, kratom, lots of weed, melatonin and an anti inflammatory diet my dr put me on combined with supplements etc from naturopath that are pretty complex.

When that’s not enough I take my prescriptions but the side effects are pretty serious so I do not live my life on them. Rheumatologist tbh thinks I need to be on biologics(immune suppressants) and my sleep/night sweats are part of the reason. Functional med dr wants me doing other stuff and avoiding that so I experiment.

Good luck. Being tired sucks.

 

[blig-blug]

@Jamie01 not any kind of solution at all, more like something to help from time to time like kratom etc, but a low dose of pregabalin is helpful to have a deeper sleep. Pregabalin also takes a long time to develop tolerance to it, but you do become physically dependent if you take it often, so I wouldn't recommend taking it often.
MK677, a growth hormone secretagogue, also improves sleep through higher GH levels. It's quite effective, but if taken regularly without dietary changes it could cause insulin resistance.
Neither of these is a "solution", but they have been useful tools to me when I have needed them.

 

[Jamie01]

Thanks bling-blug. I had a prescription for gabapentin last year but it was not much use for me. I have been interested in pregabalin so might talk to my doctor.

I should mention also diphenhydramine I find very useful, but I only use it on occasion. I don’t think long term use of it is great. Benzos work but don’t want to go down that road.. ketamine works great if I want to sleep after but again it’s something I do only a handful of times a year.

Iboga helped for weeks actually but that was years ago and not something I want to sustain on… harmalas are good for relaxing but I think they actually might make getting restful sleep worse. I did that a lot in the past and sometimes I would just wake up in something like a Bruce Damer endo-trip..

I feel gabaergic stuff and NMDA antagonists work the best on demand, and I guess anti-histamines. Cats claw combined with muscimol is one idea I have.

 

[blig-blug]

Reading up on sleep interventions, I have found this "sleep compression protocol" that sounds interesting. Here I quote the relevant section, the full document is attached. It seems to be a structured way of reducing the time you spend in beed without sleeping, similar to what @yatyas314 pointed out.

Sleep compression begins by estimating total sleep time (TST) and time in bed (TIB). This is usually done by collecting a 2-week baseline sleep diary; longer or shorter baseline duration and other data sources, such as actigraphy, could be used instead. However, collecting data for much less than a week may mean that you will not get a representative sample of sleep (for example, including both weekend and weekdays). We have also found that sleep diaries have better utility for setting a sleep compression schedule, since they reflect patients’ perceptions of their own sleep, and as a result patients are more likely to accept recommended changes than when baseline data are derived from an actigraphic device. The baseline sleep assessment will yield mean TST and mean TIB. Atypical baseline nights producing unrepresentative TST or TIB values that might arise from factors such as illness or uncharacteristic socializing can be discounted.
The therapeutic goal of sleep compression is to eliminate the TIB–TST discrepancy by cutting back TIB in incremental parts over the next several weeks. We will typically use about six sessions to shrink TIB to conform to TST. The number of treatment sessions may be adjusted according to the magnitude of the TIB–TST discrepancy that will be managed.
As an example, consider Jennifer, who averaged 6 hours of sleep a night during baseline but had 8 hours of TIB. The 2 hours of superfluous TIB will be cut by 120 minutes/six sessions, or about 20 minutes a week. As the sessions unfold, the pace of cutting TIB can be adjusted to accommodate changes in TST that may arise. If TST gradually increases, the number of minutes cut can slow, or the reverse if TST shrinks. Similarly, should the patient report waxing daytime impairment, the pace of reducing TIB should slow. We do not use a fixed formula, such as maintaining sleep efficiency within a specified range, in titrating TIB cuts. Typically, by the fourth or fifth session the therapist or patient may suggest that the rate of compression is too slow or too fast, and we will renegotiate the treatment course.