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Sodium (Bi)carbonate instead of NaOH in basifying DMT for an A/B (ALSO ACETONE EXTRACTION NO LYE NO

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crakkbakk

Rising Star
EDIT - This thread has turned more into an acetone extraction question thread, check page 2. What I have already found out about sodium carbonate is that one cant basify MHRB with sodium carbonate and pull it with naphtha or xylene, they would have to pull it w/ DCM.




Would one be able to use sodium bicarbonate instead of NaOH in basifying DMT? I do not see why not, as NaOH isn't used as a chemical reactant (technically it does, but you know what I mean) but only to base the DMT.

Is Sodium Bicarbonate not a powerful enough base, or would this work? What pH is necessary to obtain freebase DMT?

After searching, I have found that sodium bicarbonate + heat = sodiuim carbonate which is a much stronger base than bicarbonate.

Could sodium carbonate be used in basify DMT in an Acid/Base reaction? What about a Straight to Base?

Thanks!
 
The pKa of DMT is 8.68. The pH of sodium bicarbonate is 8.3. So it will surely work, but not as well as sodium carbonate (pH 11.4).

If using such a weak base, you need a solvent that DMT is very highly soluble in so that the partition coefficient is more in favor of the non-polar solvent. That means don’t use naphtha, xylene, toluene, or heptane. Instead use DCM, diethyl ether, or chloroform and you’ll get really good results. You’ll also need to do more pulls. 6 pulls is enough, 3 is not because at pH 8.3 slightly less than 50% of the DMT, maybe 45% will be freebased in the water. The first pull gets the first 45% or so as freebase. Then the remaining 55% or see splits again so that 45 % is freebased. You get that with another pull.

It's like this. Each pull with DCM will get about 45%. So keep going until there's almost no more:

100% - 45% pulled by DCM = 55% left in water
55% - 45% pulled by DCM = 24.75% left in water
24.75% - 45% pulled by DCM = 11.1375% left in water
11.1375% - 45% pulled by DCM = 5.011875% left in water
5.011875% - 45% pulled by DCM = 2.25534375% left in water
2.25534375% - 45% pulled by DCM = 1.0149046875% left in water

It's not as precise as that because of the partition coefficients and the amounts of solvent used, but you get the idea.

Sodium carbonate at pH 11.4 can freebase over 99% of the DMT in water, so it takes far less pulls. 1-3 pulls is enough if using DCM.
 
For an STB tech you need a very strong base. You need sodium hydroxide for the best results. Calcium hydroxide will also work, but the STB tech needs to be made specifically for it, or it won't work.
 
Thank you and very nice information.

If one were to use sodium carbonate, could they use it without DCM?

Just vinegar-water?

Thanks.
 
how could you go about converting sodium bicarbonate into sodium carbonate? would you heat it? and if you did heat it how hot would it have to be?
 
After discovering how effective of a base sodium carbonate is, SWIM stopped using sodium hydroxide. Sodium carbonate is far safer. It can bring a solution to pH 11.4. SWIM uses it in nearly all his extractions.
 
69ron said:
After discovering how effective of a base sodium carbonate is, SWIM stopped using sodium hydroxide. Sodium carbonate is far safer. It can bring a solution to pH 11.4. SWIM uses it in nearly all his extractions.
Click to expand...

You really need to start mentioning that lower pH's only work if one is NOT using naptha or heptane.
 
SWIM's extractions are all either DCM based, MEK based, ethyl acetate based, or acetone based, so he never really thinks about naphtha. It's not in SWIM's mind at all. He hasn't used naphtha to extract anything in a very long time now. Naphtha is a very poor solvent which SWIM has very little use for.
 
I realize this, but one has to keep in mind that naptha is used in the vast majority of extractions and that many people will assume that your friend is talking about using it at that low pH and end up with a mimosa frappe'.
 
so with the acetone...you could just basify the material..with a bit of water and an equal amount of sodium carbonate..dry the material...then use the acetone...and then drop the spice out with a fumaric acetone solution?
 
Jorkest said:
so with the acetone...you could just basify the material..with a bit of water and an equal amount of sodium carbonate..dry the material...then use the acetone...and then drop the spice out with a fumaric acetone solution?
Click to expand...

YES. There's no need to ever use naphtha at all. SWIM HATES NAPHTHA. The smell of it makes him feel sick.
 
wow...why is anybody doing the lye/naphtha anymore? this must work for mimosa? acetone is SOOO much nicer to use...and sodium carbonate is easy to get..cheap

the dmt fumarate that SWIM has been making from yellow freebase spice is sooo white and pretty..im guessing that the nasties dont even get through the fumarate precip..you can actually hear them clinking around in the jar
 
69ron said:
Jorkest said:
so with the acetone...you could just basify the material..with a bit of water and an equal amount of sodium carbonate..dry the material...then use the acetone...and then drop the spice out with a fumaric acetone solution?
Click to expand...

YES. There's no need to ever use naphtha at all. SWIM HATES NAPHTHA. The smell of it makes him feel sick.
Click to expand...


Ok, let me get this straight.

I can add sodium carbonate to the mimosa and base it, then add acetone, the dmt will migrate into the acetone? Acetone evaporates very easily.. Can you freeze precipiate out just for the bigger crystals?

If this is so howcome no one on this forum mentions it?
 
Fuck!
Not at you crackerback.
But jeezus you guys confuse the issue.
If your friend wants to do a Marsolold or Noman style extraction with naptha or any commonly available NP solvent, he needs lye or potassium hydroxide.
Do NOT try to add acetone to a basified mimosa solution and expect it to separate.
 
Good point in the PM you sent me, water and acetone are miscible..


Does anyone know WHY sodium carbonate WOULD NOT work with naptha?
Does anyone know WHY sodium carbonate WOULD work with DCM/chloroform?

If it had to do with PKA's than I could look up other solvents it would work for, like MEK or something.
 
Please try to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX at least a little bit.

You guys, it's not our fault that you are so stuck to the idea of using naphtha and an A/B to get DMT. There are other methods that exist that work.

There’s no need for an STB or A/B type of tech. No need for naphtha. You don’t need sodium hydroxide. You can extract DMT without all that trouble. Sodium carbonate works fine. Acetone works fine. But you need to follow a tech designed for it.

DMT extraction with acetone works without an A/B. You first wash the powder mimosa with acetone to defat it. Then you freebase it with wet sodium carbonate. Then you add anhydrous magnesium sulfate to dry it. Then you extract again with acetone, evaporate and you have a pretty potent product full of lots of DMT. This can be evaporated and freeze precipitated in heptane or it can then be purified further with the FASA method. The best thing about using acetone is there are NO emulsions!

All the details to perform it are scattered about this forum. Its just a matter of someone with the time to write up a tech for it. SWIM has done it already and it works. Many have performed the FASA method already and that works to purify DMT pretty well.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX:)
 
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