Some advice from the pharma-connaiseurs

[donfoolio]

Hi everybody,

I work with Ayahuasca since several years and get into Formosahuasca (Acacia confusa and Caapi) since long time now for the reason that it is relatively cheap and easy access.

But I have quite some questions:

Acaica bring me almost always in a state, really, really close to DMT whereas Psychotria has quite a different quality.

This is my idea, but Acacia-trips seems to me to be pretty "hallucinogenic" where Psychotria is a lot more about "visions", meeting people and animals and stuff. I tried to work this out with adjusting the amount of Caapi, but I have the impression that it doesn't change - but this is also my personal account.

Acacia takes me strictly to places I knew from freebase Spice and almost all of my Psychotria-experiences where quite more meaningful.

I would to know, if for you, those who use Pharmahuasca regulary, this is a common idea or am I influenced by my experience? Also, if you tried Acaia, Psychotria or Chaliponga, what is your idea about the difference in quality?

Of course, everybody is making something of its own but I have the impression that Acacia is quite more often about those realms of Patterns, of Mathematics, of alien energy.

I had some experiences with Acacia, getting in contact with entities, animals and stuff, but most of the time, it is really quite...how to say, technological and mathematical.

I am only wondering about others experiences, i knew people who work only with this mixture, but I come to a point where I am a little bit tired of its effect.

So, does in your experience Pharmahuasca offer a different quality from authentic Ayahuasca or does it depends on your personal reaction?

I want to know it, to see if there is any difference in quality in caapi, plants or harmalas and dmt? (of course there are, but I don't understand totally what happens actually. I have the impression that I am in a state of stagnation where nothing happens but bright colours)

I try to improve my recipe, and rather adjusting the quantity of caapi, or change the origin of tryptamine-plants starts to get me some questioning - eaglepath for example uses Chaliponga straight - what are these trips like? Is there this immanent plant quality about nature, god and so on, or is it like (in my experience) dmt-like lots of colours and caleidoscopes, but hardly something to deal with philosophically.

Sorry, its not quite clear in my head, so the question isn't clear ether.

 

[dragonrider]

I find that most ayahuasca type of brews, in the sense of DMT+harmala alkoloids, are pretty simmilar.

The only plant that realy stands out for me, is chaliponga. It is a very powerfull and visionary plant, even compared to acacia or mimosa.

There are small differences between all of them, but chaliponga is realy very distinct. For me personally, at least.

Psychotria is the most inconsistent one. It can be as intense as acacia, but it usually isn't. Hawaian chacruna is the most consistent and powerfull type of psychotria viridis out there. Much more potent than the stuff from peru.

 

[donfoolio]

Thanks for your advice, dragonrider!

Chaliponga is a plant that contains 5-MeO-DMT, so its quite normal that there is some difference.

I never did Pharmahuasca - that's why I ask.

I have the impression that Acacia and caapi is something missing, instead of Psychotria. I only had brazilian ones, brewed by the Santo Daime community.

Wasn't there some analytical profile of Santo Dame brew somwhere in the nexus - in comparasion with peruvian Aya and others?

My typical dosage is 1 kg of Caapi, to 180 g of Acacia for its ratio - I brew for several dosages, drink normally the equivalent of 70 gr Caapi and 12 gr Acacia. I would like to adjust to 100 gr Caapi and maybe 10 gr Acacia. Just to slow down the effects.

Endlessness did some research about different caapis here:

The Caapi Analysis Thread - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

but finally, who knows???

I work with the variety brought in contact with McKenna, var. cielo.

For reasons that aren't fully understood (just as covered by some of the posters on pages 8 & 9 of this thread) the actual plant brew from good Hawaiian psychotria can be many times more powerful, all encompassing & longer lasting than anything that can be purified out & added back in. This is poorly understood, it could be the superior salt form of the actives in the leaf, or other components along with the leaf + the dynamics of digestion of the leaf form. Traditional Ayahuasca can be quite powerful & long lasting with good plants and considered to be caapi + psychotria by the Shuar Indian, UDV, and Santo Daime. It is safe and traditional. Benny Shanon in his book "Antipodes of the Mind" also mentions he used caapi + psychotria for all of his 130+ sessions. Recommendations for good caapi would be yellow cielo caapi vine or caapi extract. Recommendations for good leaf would be Hawaiian psychotria.

Clearlight experiments that involved several people back in the day (over a dozen trials) found the leaf brew form superior to extracted actives, they found the leaf brews very strong and powerful & clairavoyant (+5 Shulgin scale), while they mentioned that the extracted actives were mild (+3 Shulgin scale) at best, even up to 100mg. Again, this is poorly understood, but refer back to page 8 & 9 of this thread for more info.

Even Jonathan Ott found that in his 20 experiments posted in his book "Ayahuasca Analogues", that none of his later experiments with extracted actives quite matched the power of his 1st actual Ayahuasca brewed with caapi and good real leaf (experiment #1), he had no explanation for this. He did however find 70mg to be close to it, but still not the same.

In dreams, a brew of blended up psychotria leaf can be boiled in 1 and 1/4 bottle of spring water (21oz) for 1/2 hour, then filtered thru a wire mesh strainer to get out the course leaf fragments, then filtered thru a cotton ball in a funnel to get out the fine leaf sediment, changing out the cotton ball when/if it clogs. Having two large funnels, each sitting in a separate glass with a cotton ball stuffed into each funnel's tube, and transferring the liquid back and forth between the two funnels when the cotton would clog up, allowed the filtering to go fast and would only take up a few minutes at most. Then put the filtered liquid back on the stove and reduce it down to 2oz, and add your caapi. Phenomenal dream with good plants. The cotton ball gets out any fine muddy leaf sediment which is irritating to the intestines, for a nausea free to the stomach/intestines brew, this of course does not reduce "brain nausea" which can result from using too much leaf.

Taking a small sip of the leaf brew (before adding the caapi to it) can be done to determine the approximate "strength" of the leaf beforehand...depending on how bitter a sip of it is, you will be able to help gauge whether the admixture part (light) of the dream will be weak, medium, or strong ornamentally. If it's too crazy bitter, back off on the leaf amount used as this may signal a "too strong" leaf brew. The leaf brew and caapi (power) are taken mixed together (marriage) at the exact same time (just as the Shamans do) for best & strongest effects ornamentally.

As a poster on page 7 posted, the 1st 60 minutes from when the caapi takes effect is when some weak nausea or slight dizziness might be noticed during the dream, whereas after the 1st hour, there is usually little to zero nausea or dizziness as the harmine in the caapi has mostly worn off by then, as the half-life of harmine is around 1.5 hour. Then all that is left working is the more desirable tetrahydroharmine in the caapi and any leaf actives for the duration of the rest of the dream.

Why traditional caapi over rue?

Just as Bancopuma wrote earlier, "the more caapi the better." Caapi contains tetrahydroharmine as it's second largest alkaloid, and contributes greatly to the experience in many postitive ways, besides it's visionary, brightening and coloring abilities, it goes way beyond that....it seems to partially inactivate barriers or filters in the brain so that "mind at large" as coined by Aldous Huxley can be let loose a bit.

Mind at Large: Mind at Large - Wikipedia

Tetrahydroharmine on it's own will also yield the same type visions as harmaline, it just takes more of it. For example, around 300mg of THH will yield the same visions as about 100mg harmaline...even if the THH dose or caapi dose is split in two over several hours, the visions will still be apparent some time after the 2nd dose takes effect, the doses are additive.

THH in the caapi also seems to strongly activate the right hand hemisphere of the brain-- the side that performs tasks that have do with creativity and the arts, feelings, visualizations, imagination, holistic thinking & intuition, empathy, spirituality & connectedness. In the first book mentioned below, researchers found that the right side of the brain lit up in brain scans of people who took LSD, mescaline, or mushrooms. The world is largely moving in the direction of the Left Brain: technology and science. What the world needs is to move in the direction of Right Brain development.

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

[/quote]

Sorry for the long quote, but it fits quite perfectly. My impression is the same - adding more Caapi results in deeper experiences. I am just looking for some practical evidence for this theory.

So, the people who are into Pharmahuasca?

Could you recognize stronger effects by upgrading the amount of Harmalas??
I suppose this idea. Strong "DMT" experiences let me there without any of the light shining by Aya-vines brightness.

Like this is quite theoretical-personal experience, I would like to know what most people experience by taking Pharma, classical Ayahausca or Analogues like Mimosa or Acacia? Does differences in the quality appear?

Or, like dragonrider, it stays the same for you from one plant to another?

 

[VibeSurfer]

I have only tried an acacia experience twice, but for me acacia was really big on complex landscapes: Being outside near temples on a beach or near water, being inside temples, sometimes presenting with some kind of Egyptian energy or imagery. When I did see entities, they were usually from afar and without much interaction. I did have an awesome experience meeting a very powerful creature or group of creatures that involved ideas passing from them to me and vice versa. I used freebase DMT alongside the acacia both times. I can't remember the doses exactly, but I think it was something like 2 grams acacia, 100mg freebase DMT both times.

 

[dithyramb]

Hi donfoolio, I have been drinking rue based brews for 11 years and my experience resonates with yours - the acacia realm is more abstract and inorganic compared to both chacruna and chaliponga. The energy is closed, contact with entities is rare, and the visions are more of closed architecture or abstract geometry than living gaian landscapes or spirits as it is with the leaves. İf it gives you any visions, they are cartoonish and this cartoonism can get literal with random meaningless visions like anime or mickey mouse etc. The experiences are biased towards euphoria and positivity, which gets in the way of doing deep healing work.

Acacia feels divine but seems to be lacking in meaning and depth. After 6 years working with acacia confusa for practical reasons (like you), I have been in search for more fulfilling alternatives, specifically from the local land. İt's not dmt but I found European Psilocybe semilanceata (with rue or caapi) really fills in the void of meaning and gaian energy that is left by acacia. And there are grasses and reeds which are a bit more complicated to work with but feel superior to acacia confusa to me so far in my ongoing study.

 

[Tony6Strings]

I have definitely noticed differences between smoking freebase from acacia vs mimosa. I have only taken pharma a handful of times, each time using spice frebase from mimosa and harmala freebase from rue.

As far as I can gather from what I've read, 5meo in chaliponga is misinformation.

 

[SynKyd]

I have definitely noticed differences between smoking freebase from acacia vs mimosa. I have only taken pharma a handful of times, each time using spice frebase from mimosa and harmala freebase from rue.

As far as I can gather from what I've read, 5meo in chaliponga is misinformation.

What amounts of rue FB have you worked with, and how have you timed it to the spice injestion, T6S? I am very interested in this combo because frankly I have a ton of rue extract to work with and not as much time as I used to for proper brewing of vine.

But I am also leery of short-cutting the ceremonial aspects, so on the fence to trying pure pharma methods.

 

[Tony6Strings]

I begin my pharma with an 8 mg ondansetron (zofran) sublingual tablet.

200 mg Rue freebase is consumed. 20 minutes later, 100 mg dmt freebase is dissolved in a small cup of cola and consumed. I have used white/yellow crystal from mimosa, naphtha freeze precipitation.

Two times this combination of alkaloids led to wonderful experience. The third time, I became extremely out of my comfort zone, I felt like I was drowning, it was a harrowing ride.

Wish you good travels.

 

[SynKyd]

Thank you, appreciate your experience. That’s about where I was planning to start with my 205# meat suit-

 

[Jees]

...Two times this combination of alkaloids led to wonderful experience. The third time, I became extremely out of my comfort zone, I felt like I was drowning, it was a harrowing ride...

I also find a variety of session-characters with the same source materials. Yes the kind of plants do have their prevalence but I mean there are other factors active as well, circumstantial factors that are hard to grab.
In the next day sharing-round with aya groups, then you hear people having had very different kind of experiences while all drank out of same bottle aya.
Statistically I've more fun with pharma, and more die-jees-die with traditional (rainbow) aya.
Never tried acacia enough to compare it to mimosa.

 

[donfoolio]

I agree with the use of semilanceata, it is quite magic.

Since I posted the first question in this thread, I had several experiences with Acacia
that were quite visionary and especially linked to witchcraft.

After all, it is always a lot about intention, even if there are of course qualitative differences between the masterplants. My brews typically have a hight content of dmt-containing Acacia, so after all, it is very very dmtesque and this is quite normal.

I would like to get more in adjusting plants like Bobinsana as well as European masterplants to get the dmt-vague a little bit less "thicker".

Thanks to everybody for their sharing!