Spirit and Psychedelics

[○]

Not one of you knows where I am at, what experiences I have had, or why I know what I do, you can assume I don't get it, because I have a different perspective, but has any of you questioned your own experience and understanding on these matters?

I will only speak for myself, but yes I absolutely question it. My beliefs are wide up revolving doors. If I find a higher truth, or a better way to relate to these experiences (or the world at large) then I'll toss the old beliefs aside like a piece of rotten meat.

At some point it really comes down to what you put your faith in. Science, as great as it is, really only serves to show just how little we actually do understand. When I stand back and look at the material world teaming with life all on it's own accord. I can't help but notice a living breathing planet with individual little cells some of which think they are in control of things. Man, to me, it's this simple. I am the energy that makes this body move and breathe. What else could I possible be? My body is composed of what I eat, drink, see, hear, smell, and think. I am connected to the trees all around me. When that pine tree outside exhales, I inhale. When I exhale, it inhales. Exactly how far out in front of me do I have to reach my hand before I touch space? What is space and what is hand? BTW What exactly owns the hand? Were is this so called self we all spend so much time looking after?

When you understand it like this there is no more birth and no more death. I am the universe. My ego very well got to have a birth and a death. Good for him. Glad he got his few moments of cosmic fame. The real me. The energy that the universe has embedded all of creation with does not die because it is never born. It just is. Perhaps there was a birth at the big bang, but honestly I highly doubt it. I think all effects require causes. Things don't just go bang and form universes with out a cause....

If that sounds egotistical then you completely misunderstood what I said. My words apply equally to everyone. But they are meaningless drivel to people who don't take time to cultivate the awareness of this existential truth. Lucky science is on our side here. Quantum entanglement guarantees everyone and everything is utter connected. All of it. Totally inclusive. Full and complete interconnectedness. Gotta love quantum entanglement. Welcome to the universal soup...and exactly how are you divided from us again? lol

What can I say. Life is awesome. Every single absurd detail of it is. Our ego's, and individual views, while interesting ultimately mean dick for the universe. AND THAT IS A GREAT THING.

And No. Psychedelics don't make a person spiritual. But they very well may tip a spiritually inclined person into a mystical experience. Then, however, the real work begins. Life is not psychedelic. Life is life. If we can learn to remove our pathetic egos from daily existence then life is away's just perfect. Only when we want to claim ownership of things and events do we find ourselves 'outside' of the Tao. Ego is not something that can ever grasp the tao. I don't care how many books, or how many grand spiritual teachers one talks to. If you don't understand how all things are connected then you don't understand the tao. If you think you have an intellectual understanding of the tao it is wrong because an ego is required for intellectual understanding. The tao is the universe exactly as it is...sans the stupid ego.


Peace

Nail..meet hammer. Well said man.

Psychedelics aren't inherently spiritual. They work with what you give them. Perceiver and the perceived; one symbiotic symphany. Energy..meet energy. We're the motion to the ocean. Psychedelics, especially DMT..'can' show this directly.

 

[Jin]

people my internet is not back , yet i have discovered how to connect my phone to laptop via blutooth and be able to log in , just like james bond , very cool indeed

Jin, you write a lot dismissing questions and praising observations, you appear to not question yourself or your experiences, but can observations even be made without questions?

When you find a word you don't know, (I do all the time) do you not look it up? To do so is to question the meaning of the word, one cannot learn without questioning and observing.


To say that one is more important might be lacking balance, much like with unity, an emphasis upon unity over division, or the reverse, is imbalanced.

you're right that it lacks balance , its also true the questioning process is a fundamental aspect of knowledge and understanding and without it we might not have any technology or science ( apologies for the inferior remark on my earlier post , its just what i felt not exactly how it is)

yet questioning has nothing to do with being in the moment or just being

i've been plagued with thoughts now for sometime , which has helped me realize the whole thinking process is useless for me , as i already know what i need to know to live and enjoy my life on this planet , further questioning and thinking seems to be just a waste of time which i can use to observe all the details of reality

i am very much into details and always like looking at reality in depth , i've discovered good observation helps make a good memory , as no-one can ever remember what they haven't observed or experienced ,

thus memory is always dependent on observation
just as understanding is dependent on the questioning process

yet i only have the time and energy to choose one of these , as i live my life by observing continuously , thus as any questions come up , i easily ignore them and return to my observation process as thats much more fun for me personally

i am not saying my way is the right way , its just a way , a fun way that i've chosen for myself , what i get out of pure observation is a good memory and recall aswell as peace of mind for thoughts usually stay out of my mind

its not about being right or wrong for me , i've chosen what i find t be more fun , the questioning process is just not doing it for me thus i have discarded it alltogether

everyone has to make their own choices when it comes to this , i am not saying everyone has to walk my path , yet i surely will ,

its just a personal choice , just observe and have fun Vs understand the whole universe , well the latter seems to much for me , i'll rather just observe and have fun , i am hopeful others will keep the good work of understanding the universe going on and add to the information that is already out there ,

i do what feels good , not what is good or bad , maybe questioning everything is the way , yet i am just too lazy for all this , i'll rather smoke cannabis and let enlightenment find me

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

So, you are absolutely correct, I am NOT a Taoist scholar or any other kind of scholar at all....

You cannot say I do not understand the Tao, based on your criteria.

You are like a blind man telling me you can see, while I CAN see, and you try to pass off your imagination as fact. Tao is not the only area here where you talk about what you don't know.

You come across to me as fake, an internet expert on enlightenment, psychedelics and Tao, who is generally believed and revered by the people who buy into the double talk. But honestly you are a naked emperor to me.

You really aren't worth engaging in the thread and for me have little worth reading or listening to.

I don't care how many books, or how many grand spiritual teachers one talks to. If you don't understand how all things are connected then you don't understand the tao. If you think you have an intellectual understanding of the tao it is wrong because an ego is required for intellectual understanding. The tao is the universe exactly as it is...sans the stupid ego.

Joedirt, you clearly don't read my posts, which is fine, but you should know that all things being connected was never in question by me or anyone in this thread.

However if you don't know how all things are divided you also don't understand Tao. The same for consciousness, if one does not understand that all things have their own awareness, then likewise they fail to understand Tao.

I notice a lack of balance in much of these views, something that prevents Tao from being experienced. Life being "awesome" for example, or being the reverse, is not Tao at all, that is again ego, all desire, emotion and attachment is also ego. This concept of awesome, good or bad, all ego.

This is why Buddha teaches questioning all and critical thinking. Why he teaches what words are, tool, and how to use them and also how to be taken by them.

This ties into spiritual use of psychedelics, as well as proper use of thoughts and words. Each thought is as an invocation, or an evocation, words are likewise. They can easily mislead us, as they have done Rising Spirit, in my opinion, as well as myself, particularly when I shared many of the same ego based delusions that he is immersed in currently.

The Tao De Jing is a manual meant for a specific use, not a general book for lay people or for people in general, but it was made so it can fall into the hands of lay people and they won't see it for what it is. It is very clever in this regard. One might find personal truth in it, but that does not mean one knows Tao or understands it at all.

Of course all is one, and divided, and aware.
That is basic stuff and not in question.

If you think I ever questioned all being one, you either didn't read my words, or didn't understand them. It is basic stuff, a good place to start.

The energy that the universe has embedded all of creation with does not die because it is never born. It just is. Perhaps there was a birth at the big bang, but honestly I highly doubt it. I think all effects require causes. Things don't just go bang and form universes with out a cause....

Cause and effect are things that only exist in the mind or in ego, this is a major emphasis of Taoist teachings. One cannot, for example, maintain that all is one, that unity exists, and still teach that cause and effect are different. If you truly believe that all is united, then how can you believe that effects require causes? You seem to have a need to invoke the quantum mechanics, isn't that also a major issue with QM? That cause and effect are one and the same and inseparable? In unity one cannot divide between cause and effect.

I will note that many teachings, Taoist and Buddhist for example, and others, are concerned with thinking, training the mind etc, they do not abandon thinking and are incredibly intellectual, but know and teach thoughts and words as tools with both specific benefits and specific flaws. Jin, you might note that in terms of being in the moment, thinking is not abandoned, nor is questioning, but the teaching is to let go of ones thoughts. In the famous picture series the Ox is let go of, for example, it is still there and is still an ox, but it doesn't pull the herd-boy where it wants and he doesn't pull it where he wants, those are early stages of development typically entailing mantra and Japa work.

Lets say, for fun, that one can develop innate powers, that appear as magic.
That the means to these is found in thought as well as other aspects of being, that unity and division and awareness all pertain to these as well.

That being said, if you could have anything you want, what would you have?

 

[Rising Spirit]

You are like a blind man telling me you can see, while I CAN see, and you try to pass off your imagination as fact. Tao is not the only area here where you talk about what you don't know.

You come across to me as fake, an internet expert on enlightenment, psychedelics and Tao, who is generally believed and revered by the people who buy into the double talk. But honestly you are a naked emperor to me.

You really aren't worth engaging in the thread and for me have little worth reading or listening to.

Double ouch!!!
I suspect that on some level or another, we are all "fake", at least in terms of mistaking our ego for our eternal soul. I don't have any exclusivity for said characteristic. Knowing the books thoroughly and knowing the Tao itself, to feel the symbiotic interconnection innately within all the changing appearances... are certainly not the same thing. You are being proud and kinda superfluous, to imply that the Tao can be contained in any written verses. It's quintessence is beyond human linguistics, it's eternal speech is the cosmos itself, Omniscient and Divine.

People who have never even heard of the Tao Te Ching, all over this planet, have intimate experiences of the Tao and don't even conceptualize it as being such. Tao is wholly universal. It spills effortlessly into every nook and cranny of life, yet, it evades any lasting containment by it's enigmatic, flowing nature. And knowledge of the Tao cannot be gained merely by reading about it.

Experience is pivotal to gnosis and is wholly non literal. Please share some of yours. And this is not just another rebuttal or challenge, I am sincerely curious how your understanding of literal Taoism has effected what you experience on a daily basis and facilitated transformation in your own life journey. I'm not prying, I'm just curious. It inarguably has done little to engender good manners and kindness in your communications. Please play nice, Albert. :!:

 

[Jin]

i am starting to think albert you're taking the topic of spirituality way seriously , i don't know if its the best approach

you still know my take on all this does'nt go more than that there is a higher power and thats all i know , details of the workings of the universe is something that seems fruitless for me to understand

using the OX analogy , even if i were to understand everything while being a human i would still be a human , even enlightenment does'nt mean much when seen in this light

i am also starting to see you pointing towards personalism as a spiritual philosophy , as is the case with many who employ methods such as mantra and japa , i myself am in the same boat and do mantra recitation and japa many a times and still confused on personalism vs impersonalism debate in many spiritual circles (even if you're not pointing towards personalism and thts just my creative imagination , i would still like to hear your take on it )

i agree with your original post stating that psychdelics are not innately spiritual and spritual techniques must be employed for greater spiritual results , yet the rest of the thread has spiralled into a mess and i don't understand what benefit you're getting out of picking on Rising Spirit

also i see that you're expecting Rising Spirit to have all the right answers and when it does not match your expectation , it seems to be causing you great discomfort

i just don't see the point to this , if you're expecting all the answers of the universe to be revealed to you by this thread ........i guess thats a laughable notion , also you seem to be expecting rising Spirit to give you all the answers

i don't know whether i should laugh at the whole thread when seen in this light or continue with further analyisis of the situation ,

you're calling Rising Spirit a blind man , what provokes such deep insults ,
even if everything Rising Spirit said is false what difference does it make ? were you really hoping to understand the whole universe by relying on Rising Spirit's information in these matters ? are you hoping Rising Spirit would be the avatar that would help you cross this material ocean of ignorance

such hopes at times can only lead to frustration ,thus you clearly understand why i disfavour the questioning process as all your questions are aimed at humans , what great knowledge you're hoping for is still un-understandable to me :lol: (un-understandable is awesome word .....this is all the knowledge one really needs )

 

[jamie]

"You are like a blind man telling me you can see, while I CAN see, and you try to pass off your imagination as fact. Tao is not the only area here where you talk about what you don't know. "

You can see? How can any of us be assured that you can see? Or why do you think yu are qualified to tell others they cannot?

Do you understand how utterly rediculous this statement makes you sound?

 

[joedirt]

So, you are absolutely correct, I am NOT a Taoist scholar or any other kind of scholar at all....

You cannot say I do not understand the Tao, based on your criteria.

You are like a blind man telling me you can see, while I CAN see, and you try to pass off your imagination as fact. Tao is not the only area here where you talk about what you don't know.

You come across to me as fake, an internet expert on enlightenment, psychedelics and Tao, who is generally believed and revered by the people who buy into the double talk. But honestly you are a naked emperor to me.

You really aren't worth engaging in the thread and for me have little worth reading or listening to.

It's interesting how the depth of ones ability to "SEE" shines through in their treatment of others. Interesting indeed.

I don't care how many books, or how many grand spiritual teachers one talks to. If you don't understand how all things are connected then you don't understand the tao. If you think you have an intellectual understanding of the tao it is wrong because an ego is required for intellectual understanding. The tao is the universe exactly as it is...sans the stupid ego.

Joedirt, you clearly don't read my posts, which is fine, but you should know that all things being connected was never in question by me or anyone in this thread.

However if you don't know how all things are divided you also don't understand Tao. The same for consciousness, if one does not understand that all things have their own awareness, then likewise they fail to understand Tao.

BS. There is no division except the faulty one you create in your mind. Besides that do you really not think everyone can see the divisions you speak of?

My country is this.
My God is Great!,
My army is strong.
My MY MY MY.
My is a BIg Fat Lie.

It's not that we are blind and you somehow see what we don't. We all see it. But this division you see is the actual illusion. Oh for sure your ego can get crushed by division. It's very very real to your ego. Division itself however, is not real. The universe. UNI-Verse. Started from a singularity. At what moment in time was it worth calling it a division?

I notice a lack of balance in much of these views, something that prevents Tao from being experienced. Life being "awesome" for example, or being the reverse, is not Tao at all, that is again ego, all desire, emotion and attachment is also ego. This concept of awesome, good or bad, all ego.

The only thing you, or I, or Rising Spirit or anyone else can truthfully say about the Tao is that the Tao is everything exactly as it is. End of discussion. You don't see some grand fiber of truth that the rest of us miss because you "see" division. Division is natural to see. Its the world of ego. But mark my words the atoms that make up your body will, when you die, simply continue on as part of the UNI-VERSE. Division my ass. Only exists in the realm of ego.

This is why Buddha teaches questioning all and critical thinking. Why he teaches what words are, tool, and how to use them and also how to be taken by them.

So critically think then. You are in no way, shape, form, or fashion separate from anything in this universe. Quantum entanglement proves it on a quantum level and cause and effect, counter to your wrong view of it, does in fact point exactly to the fact that we are all one. Nothing arises with out a prior cause...NOTHING EXISTS ON IT'S ON. See it now? BTW Dependent Origination is not as simple as the billiard ball example commonly taught in physics 101. It's the interconnectedness of everything that makes us all one.

Can you exist without your brain? No.
So it's ok to call the brain yours.

Can you exist without air?
Maybe the air is yours as well?

Can the air exist with out a planetary biosphere?
Maybe the planetary biosphere is you as well?

Can the planet exist in a state fit for life without a proper solar system?
It can not.
Perhaps the solar system is you as well?

I'll let you work out the remaining steps.

You ARE NOT, not matter how much arguing you do in ANY SHAPE FORM OR FASHION separate. Separation is a delusion of the ego...and yes. Every single one of us reading this thread sees it. We are all entangled in it. It is however possible to touch states via psychedelics that confirm that a fully aware egoless state exists, but it can't exist when there is a false sense of separation called the ego.

If you think I ever questioned all being one, you either didn't read my words, or didn't understand them. It is basic stuff, a good place to start.

Basic stuff. LOL. Yeah what ever. If by basic you mean people stive entire lifetimes and never achieve it. Then yeah I suppose it is pretty basic stuff. :roll:

The energy that the universe has embedded all of creation with does not die because it is never born. It just is. Perhaps there was a birth at the big bang, but honestly I highly doubt it. I think all effects require causes. Things don't just go bang and form universes with out a cause....

Cause and effect are things that only exist in the mind or in ego, this is a major emphasis of Taoist teachings. One cannot, for example, maintain that all is one, that unity exists, and still teach that cause and effect are different. If you truly believe that all is united, then how can you believe that effects require causes? You seem to have a need to invoke the quantum mechanics, isn't that also a major issue with QM? That cause and effect are one and the same and inseparable? In unity one cannot divide between cause and effect.

yes one can maintain that all is one, that unity exists and still teach cause and effect. See my words above. You have a very faulty view of cause and effect (Dependent Origination). It is one of the nails in the coffin of unity.

As for your claim that the Toaist teachings that cause and effect are things of the ego. I have not read that, and honestly I do not care if you did indeed find those words in a book. They are wrong. Planets continue to orbit suns via cause and effect whether there is an ego present or not.

Lets say, for fun, that one can develop innate powers, that appear as magic.
That the means to these is found in thought as well as other aspects of being, that unity and division and awareness all pertain to these as well.

That being said, if you could have anything you want, what would you have?

Freedom from the ego.

Peace

 

[hug46]

This thread is as much about spirituality as the dirty socks on my feet. Everyone is just getting at each-other. If this thread represents what people become like when they are spiritual, then i am happy to remain a confused agnostic.

 

[bodhi]

Sisyphus ...an eternity of useless efforts and unending frustration


Your much too bright for this AlbertKLloyd

 

[cyb]

This thread is as much about spirituality as the dirty socks on my feet. Everyone is just getting at each-other. If this thread represents what people become like when they are spiritual, then i am happy to remain a confused agnostic.

Damn Skippy...
(have another...I'm buyin')

PO

 

[Rising Spirit]

I have never had a godhead experience and it sounds very interesting but i was wondering whether it might be some sort of failsafe/survival mechanism that the brain employs after getting bombarded with too much information. Like a sort of mental overdose where the brain has two choices..1. become fried by the overdose or 2. just throw it"s metaphorical hands up in the air and go "i am God,everything is one" and words to that effect. Similar to when you go through a traumatic incident and the brain chooses to repress the memories.

You certainly raise some extremely valid points, hug46. Kudos for your unpretentious honesty! You could quite reasonably apply the same questions to OBE and NDE. On a milder level, you could also bring sitting meditation, fasting, sleep and sensory deprivation into this loop. There are definitely specific chemical releases taking place in all of these non-ordinary experiential modes. I wont speculate on which chemicals are effecting, which areas of our brain, because I really don't know.

That's one for our scientific friends and their qualified expertise. I don't specifically know what Amitra is but I have tasted it's nectar and do question just what it is, in fact. It may be the mystics and the folks practicing daily meditation, who take the journey... but wouldn't it be fantastic if proper research were to be let loose and so, take a good looooooong look at these phenomena?

I truly believe that my epiphanies are not a kind of mechanism which defaults to factory setting, when the going gets overwhelming. Or for that matter, when one's life is ending. Nor do I feel it is akin to an anesthesia to minimize severe trauma. I'll admit I could be incorrect. Without objectivity we are all hopelessly lost. But the state comes with it such clarity of mind and such an expanded perception, nothing in our ordinary lives can compare to it's capacity to totally open oneself up to all other selves, exponentially, living inside of their various forms of manifested being. And in the depths of inner peace, we arrive in the splendor of total silence of mind. This is most euphoric, I can't deny that it is. Euphoria is good to experience now and again, eh? It's not an endpoint nor a plateau... it's just nice to be high and feel the buzz of the Omniscient current passing through oneself. And if we are sensitive to the interconnection, to love and understand one another.

More so, in "God-mode", there is the palpable feeling of the presence of a far greater and more universal intelligence, and this impression has so much REALITY... we do essentially throw our metaphorical hands up in the air. It behooves us to stop for a moment and merge freely into the flow, the fulcrum of the here and now. It's called surrender in the scriptures of the world. But not a surrender to a force outside of oneself, rather, inside of oneself.

Practically speaking, this becomes a necessity of sorts, when the energy gets full tilt. I feel that it does indeed facilitate our immersion into the Clear Light of the Void. We need to release our fixations and allow ourselves to reach beyond our relative understanding., if we are curious about peeking into the enormity of the Absolute. Peeking ... whilst peaking.? Opening the all -seeing Eye. :shock:

And even in such effulgent states of experiential being, we all come down or come back to ordinary self, with all of it's baggage, it's thinking and conceptualizing. No wonder people so frequently sob after these Godhead experiences. But IME, it's not crying in sorrow or frustration. They are tears of rapture! The type of weeping that is rooted in a deep unity and holistic interconnection with all things. To fuse one's consciousness so profoundly to the Unified Field, is quite shattering to the ego. And then... when we return to this plane of experience, poor little ego has to integrate the knowledge of such a high level of awareness, through the normal parameters of it's own patterning and habitual thought loops.

I'd love to see more energy being put into researching just what is going on inside of a person's own head, when a human mind is expanding and transcending itself and merging within the Sacred Field. Disappointingly little has been discovered by science about the most dramatic shifts in human conscious-awareness. NDE has gotten a descent amount of attention and this is a very good thing. I would welcome an influx of research in shifts in humanoid awareness, in all of these altered states. But IMO, our brains are indeed hardwired for a gradual, incremental increase in the processing of new information and a deeper understanding of previously downloaded data, in wholly new and eye-opening ways. :thumb_up:

This thread is as much about spirituality as the dirty socks on my feet. Everyone is just getting at each-other. If this thread represents what people become like when they are spiritual, then i am happy to remain a confused agnostic.

Hey, I don't blame you one little bit. If we can't be kind and respectful to each other, it doesn't bode well for the rest of our crazy world. I honestly worry how much such bickering effects the Nexus' reputation. We could have done so much more with this thread. I hope and believe we still can. I admit my role in this wrinkle. No one is perfect on this side of the looking glass, but we can certainly behave far more harmoniously, as a collective of psychonauts.

And I humbly request you all to forgive my part in morphing this into a tangent about the Tao. Words are just words... and yeah, we all take them far too seriously. Even if I believe that the Tao is the force behind the Oneness, the Spirit within everything... the subject has gotten touchy about semantics and interpretations of others spoken words. And that' really quite a shame.

Sigh... I feel that things have gone too far and we need to think about how our debate influences new visitors to this site and how it reflects on the team making this place happen for the rest of us. Let alone the primary objective of this community. So please, let's all bury the hatchet. The sheer irony is that this thread is about Spirit and how psychedelics may or may not cause or stimulate spiritual experiences.

I'd personally love to hear more direct testimonials about how entheogens have opened new doors of perception or helped to produce temporary states of Samadhi/Satori/Divine Rapture. For myself, based on my direct experiences, I always embrace life more enthusiastically and undergo a sort of re-birthing, upon re-entry. But all of the real work is done with both feel firmly planted on the ground. Integration and transformation are what gets us to actualize the insights, to attune to a new ways of living upon this earth. And to me this is a very, very "spiritual" place to be, this garden, to be undergoing our significant changes and recognize the eternal in the temporal. The Light shines brightly throughout this universe. In the void of empty space, it beckons us to touch it's Grace. May you all be well and shine brightly, yourselves! 8)

 

[hug46]

You either get it or you don"t in my opinion and psychedelics have had nothing to do with me getting it. They have helped enhance "it" but i believe you gotta have the raw material in the first place.

I have broken through on DMT ,if breaking through involves sitting for 2 hours afterwards muttering expletives about what just happened to me. I also may have had a near death experience whilst induced into a deep/sleep coma but, like my DMT journeys, i was not able to bring anything concrete back from the experience just the feeling that it is damned good to be alive (that feeling is very nice). I have not had a Godhead moment but it does worry me a little that this experience might cloud my judgment and take away my ability to question what actually happened to me.

I haven"t read any books on spirituality so far which may sound ignorant , but i don"t want my simple views coloured or complicated by someone elses writings because , at the moment, my views work for me. It is a journey of "self" realisation for me, with the emphasis on "self". If no-one is interested in my views on my realationship with everything, it doesn"t bother me one iota, and i certainly have no need to impose my ideas on anyone else. However i do enjoy reading the banter on this forum between fallible human beings.

It seems to me everyone has different interpretations of these things and it"s ok to argue about it as we have all been carved by different experiences over the years, but i guess that when it all deteriorates into all out war is when it becomes a major problem. "my idea of God is more right than yours" and for all we know we could be just arguing about a philosophical possibility.

The above statement is a little bit of how i feel about psychedelics and spirituality and not aimed at any previous posters, you are all good lads and lasses and i have read posts by all of you in the past that have been peaches.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

You can see? How can any of us be assured that you can see? Or why do you think yu are qualified to tell others they cannot?

Do you understand how utterly rediculous this statement makes you sound?

Yes, I understand how it seems. However if you were in my position you would understand totally. As far as qualified to tell others, in general I can't tell if they can or can't unless they tell me they can or can't such as Rising Spirit has done.

It is no different than a child telling you they added 2+2 and got 12, the only thing that makes you qualified to correct them is when they don't get it right and it is totally clear to you, as is the case for Rising Spirit and Joedirt recently for his presentation of oneness ignoring division.

Division and unity are aspects of the same thing.

There is another aspect as well, but it doesn't matter here, I am not teaching and nobody here is learning.

Joedirt, despite what you believe, all causes are effects and all effects are causes and there is only now. There is no cause, nor effect, when it comes down to it. This is a teaching of Tao. In this what does up must come down, but going up is as much an effect as a cause and going down as much as a cause as an effect.

Division is as real as unity and is all pervasive, Yin and Yang are together Taiji, which is Wuji as well.

In Tao there is also a mathematical system, related to the trigrams. It is highly intellectual in some ways, yet allows the oracle in others. It is beyond mathematical values and has to do with functional dynamics, as Tao is largely concerned with, ergo Yin and Yang equal Taiji. You don't just suddenly experience or understand that system, it is taught for a reason, like much information, because despite our unity we don't all know all the same languages and information and memories, there is division and distinction and this requires some learning.

Without this system, without these specific teachings, no discussion of Tao would even be taking place.

In terms of experience one worth considering is the transmission of thoughts, and the use of methods of sending and receiving them to specific people, sort of like using a radio with a specific frequency. There are people specific bandwidths and common public ones as well. One could learn a lot about these through the use of psychedelics in a specific manner or context. Often people experience shared consciousness but fail to develop techniques of employing it or do not realize that it is not specific to the psychedelic experience.

 

[Rising Spirit]

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

(Translated by Gia-fu Feng & Jane English)

The spirit one can talk about is not the eternal spirit,
and what you can name is not the eternal name.
Nameless-Tao is the beginning of the heavens and the Earth.
If you name it — it is no more than Matter.
Therefore: he who conceives of nature freely grasps this Spirit
and he who strives for material things is left with only the shell.
Spirit and matter are both one in their origin, yet different in appearance.
This unity is a mystery — truly the mystery of all mysteries,
the gate to all spirituality.The Tao-Path is not the All-Tao.
The Name is not the Thing named.

(As translated by Andre Gauthier)

Unmanifested, it is the Secret Father of Heaven and Earth;
manifested, it is their Mother.
To understand this Mystery, one must be fulfilling one’s will,
and if one is not thus free, one will but gain a smattering of it.
The Tao is one, and the named Tao but a phase thereof.
The abyss of this Mystery is the Portal of Serpent-Wonder.

(As translated by Aleister Crowley)

Some interesting translations in English, from the original Chinese script. Obviously, Lao Tzu spoke ancient Chinese and all translations are just that, people's interpretations of his enigmatic, poetic verses. I must agree with AlbertKLloyd, Gia-fu Feng probably translates the Chinese characters in English, closest to the original meaning.

175+ translations of the Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1. check it out. Tao Te Ching (175 translations of the first chapter)

As a playful display of my possible ignorance, or conversely, my possible understanding... I would like to put this lovely wisdom into my own terminology and personal semantics. In light of this thread, I purposely substitute Divine Being, Spirit, Sacred Way, One, God and Void, for The Eternal Tao. I feel that it is of utmost importance to remember that we shouldn't just conceptualize or debate about what is or isn't, the Sacred Way. We are wise recognize that we exist within it's Unified Field of Being, as symmetrical aspects of it's totality, right here & now. In this eternal moment, we are all interconnected reflections of the Spirit, we truly are One. :thumb_up:

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Speaking of the Sacred Way does not equate to directly experiencing it's Spirit.
Our labels for the ineffable One are not the true reality of the Divine Being.
Unmanifest, undifferentiated God is the root cause of all manifestation.
Once formed, it births an infinity of existential possibilities, spontaneously.
Without attachment to appearances, the quintessential Spirit is seen in all things.
Locked into a subject-object dichotomy, one sees only the differences or polarities.
But all is indivisible, any dualities exist only within our own subjective quantification.
All remains an absolute Void, despite our own illusions, and wholly transcends division.
Mysterious and conceptually ungraspable, we see but it's enigmatic trail, flowing freely.
It's all-pervasive current is a vortex spiraling into the center of Eternity.

(Interpreted from other English language translations, by Rising Spirit)

 

[dg]

great read guys and gals- thanks!

for what its worth;
AKL is one of the kindest-knowledgeable and most mis understood friends that i have

love ya Brother!

 

[hug46]

AKL is one of the kindest-knowledgeable and most mis understood friends that i have

I am glad someone said that

 

[jamie]

"Division and unity are aspects of the same thing."

Well, you cant really have unity without diversity. Focusing on oneness alone has never made much sense to me personally. It is valid, but so is the diversity. If you dont have diversity than there is nothing to unify..and if you dont have unity than the seemingly endless expression of diversity sort of makes no sense becasue there is nothing like a sort of closure to bring it all back together into something that makes sense for us..as much as that even can make sense...

Not that I assume much that the way things really are should make much sense in the first place. I really have no real reason to believe such a thing.

I dont mind the idea of oneness, because when most people use it they are speaking to the idea of unity..and this most definatly is a unified system we are part of. I am personally at odds with the idea of emptyness though..the idea of meditating on the void etc. It is not my thing. When I look around I see a system of abundance, that flourishes in that abundance..and it is insanely complex and diverse. When I look at modern industrialism I see a path that looks like it could actaully lead us into a void of nothing.

I will take the living, thriving system of diverse abundance anyday, because that is where I see a future..and this is where I feel I thrive. I neither thrive nor see a future in a void. That is just me though. I still acknowledge the unity within that system..and I think it is important to do so.

I also think ego death is not the be all end of the psychedelic experience..though it is one aspect of importance.

 

[Rising Spirit]

I dont mind the idea of oneness, because when most people use it they are speaking to the idea of unity..and this most definatly is a unified system we are part of. I am personally at odds with the idea of emptyness though..the idea of meditating on the void etc. It is not my thing. When I look around I see a system of abundance, that flourishes in that abundance..and it is insanely complex and diverse. When I look at modern industrialism I see a path that looks like it could actaully lead us into a void of nothing.

jamie, I can see why you would feel this way. But I'd have to say that there is a general misnomer around the nature of stillness, emptiness, Void, Eternal Tao, No Mind, Zero, etc...

And I can see how The Void could seem like nothing, a hollow vacuum where naught but absence lurks. In my view, it's more a no-thing, as in not a recognizable thing. At least, not as we understand things. It's not a defined, fixed or committed kind of thing. I feel that it is a raw force of potential, an invisible spiritual presence, yet, it's the very miraculous juice that fuels the reality of all of this manifested being.

It may be a turn off, a non-existent refection of existence... but I maintain that it's the other side of this perceivable world and we all must eventually embrace it's oblivion, in our final mortal moments. So, is this not all the more reason to experience this pause, while still incarnated?

The insubstantial is intimately linked to the substantial. While the unformed is the opposite refection of the clearly formed, it is also the hidden, most mysterious part of what is known. That same no-thing that theoretically causes quantum fluctuations and so, initiates the bloom of our material paradigm, also courses through each of us.

I suspect that this great unborn potential of force is born anew within each of us, as contrary as that sounds, and it springs into being from a place which has no fixed form or definition. So, the unformed needs the vessel to become formed, so as to hold it's essence, if it is to dance throughout myriad experiences. And I lea towards seeing this force as awareness itself. Awareness meeting itself in consciousness awakening to itself.

I believe it flows like a current of unbound creativity, thus filling in the emptiness of it's non-being with living and thriving being. A balance of opposites, a wholeness and totality. Entwined, they are the very same Spirit, dancing in dynamic dichotomy. Two sides of the same ole proverbial coin. Yin-Yang is the interwoven, interconnected fusion, mirrored seamlessly betwixt the perceivable and the imperceivable.

Now, in regards to meditation or the psychedelic experience, from my stance it's not exactly that one's experience is so empty it's blank or akin to being comatose. Or that the Void is somehow equivalent to the absence of everything knowable. It's kinda like an absence of any specified form or committed definition, yet, this is seems to be the force that drives everything that we know of as having defined form and existence.

When one's mind achieves a pause in it's mental dialog, just long enough to experience a silence so profound it shifts one's focus to an insubstantial frequency of being. This quieting of the mind engenders a capacity to embrace alternate realities, directly.

Such concentration facilitates the shift in perception and a contact with the formless aspect of this existence. Whether it is the sound of a gong or the sound of a pickup truck rumbling down the road, sonic vibrations are everywhere. We listen to their transmissions and we absorb their oscillations, we give substance to their issuance by being the active listener. We are symbiotic aspects of everything else. Logically, emptiness is the opposite of fullness and Void is essentially the insubstantial, as in the opposite of the substantial. But I have found, that it's unspoken voice is silence and we can effectively attune to this stillness and know it as the source of all, the song celestial of creation.

I also think ego death is not the be all end of the psychedelic experience..though it is one aspect of importance.

I agree, it's not the apex of the psychedelic experience. I believe that ego death is the natural result of one's accelerated perception and serves a vital purpose in our spiritual awakening. Also, can there be any "be all end all" to the realm of experience? I think that as humans, we adjust our minds to any potential avenue of understanding or it's seeming absence, in the current of the unformed.

But in terms of souls traveling to other planes of experiential being, I think that we need to freeze the ordinary ego-identity, the isolated self, if we want to go through the whole level-jumping trip. The journey of direct immersion into the effulgent stillness. Like stepping from one degree of awareness to then next.

Ego works fine as a function and a necessity on the material frequency, but when we put our ego in stasis, we loose the lines of distinctions between oneself and all else that exists. We merge our self into the Omniscience. In the quietude of such sublime formlessness, there exists the supreme potential for of all things to become.

It is perhaps void of form or any specificity in parameter of substance, but IME, it is assuredly alive as an intelligence and a vitality beyond our human comprehension. Infinite potential awaiting it's moment to blossom. I have a notion that we are all made up of that same potential, on an individualized level. We give the eternal formlessness it's finite form, albeit it briefly, simply by our desire to be. Our very urge to exist perpetuates the cosmic dream. As they say in India, "Tat Tvam Asi". 8)

 

[jamie]

"In my view, it's more a no-thing, as in not a recognizable thing."

I could start a whole other thread just about that. I understand and agree with you, I seperate that idea from the common idea of a void though. I will stop there otherwise I will write too much and end up contradicting myself..becasue I think you have to conradict yourself to even begin talking about that whole subject..and then it comes out sounding like nonsense.

 

[nen888]

^..to perceive an object (thing), one has a degree of separation (externality) to it..
to be non-separated from the thing is to collapse all notion of objcet..
there just is..
but there is nothing..
.