STB Extraction - 'Salt' Technique Notes

[Ancotar]

The following is an account of a STB extraction using MHRB. In no is this meant to be a tek, but to rather indicate what my experience was in extraction of two different batches of 40g MHRB.

First Batch

900ml Distilled Water
40g Brazilian MHRB
40g Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) (CAUTION: Extremely caustic)
40g Ice Cream Salt (Crude Salt)

Added 900ml Distilled Water to Bomex 1000ml Erlenmeyer Flask, then added the Sodium Hydroxide and Crude salt. Immediately added MHRB after lye/salt combo. Mixed by capping flask and shaking until all dissolved. Let sit for 30 minutes.

Did 4 pulls using 15ml naphtha using Bomex 1000ml Separatory Funnel, emptying naphtha pulls into decanting jar. Separated naphtha from jar into glass pie dish using syringe and eyedropper, making sure to keep out any dark brown matter. Set small desk fan to slow speed and pointed towards pie dish to help encourage evaporation.

Total yield from process - 0.4g


Second Batch

900ml Distilled Water
40g Brazilian MHRB
60g Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) (CAUTION: Extremely caustic)
40g Ice Cream Salt (Crude Salt)

Added 900ml Distilled Water to Bomex 1000ml Erlenmeyer Flask, then added the Sodium Hydroxide and Crude salt. Immediately added MHRB after lye/salt combo. Mixed by capping flask and shaking until all dissolved. Let sit for 60 minutes in hot tap water bath using bucket.

Did 4 pulls using 15ml naphtha using Bomex 1000ml Separatory Funnel, emptying naphtha pulls into decanting jar. Separated naphtha from jar into glass pie dish using syringe and eyedropper, making sure to keep out any dark brown matter. Set small desk fan to slow speed and pointed towards pie dish to help encourage evaporation.

Total yield from process - 0.7g

---------------------------------

So as I had observed, letting the mimosa soup sit for longer helps to encourage the plant matter to break down a bit more, thus releasing more retrievable material that could be collected using the naphtha pulls. The heating element also seemed to have a positive effect.

It would also seem that the salt has a profound effect on how much material can be retrieved. I have only done two extractions now with only one coming close to the 2.0% range, so I do plan to do more extractions testing my second method to see if I can get consistent results and perhaps increase yield as well!

I also hope to document the process with a pictorial! Please stay tuned!

 

[cyb]

Great stuff...:d

I would use a lot less water though..
for 40g bark...go for 550/600ml
Half the lye (30g) will suffice too
go for 6 pulls (6th leave overnight)..they may only produce small amounts (20mg) but it all adds up..

 

[3rdI]

good stuff Ancotar, nice one.

i have just started getting into STB and i am gonna play with the addition of salt as it seems to be bumping up the yield.

are you going to do a comparison between heated extraction with and without salt to see how much difference the salt makes?

 

[Infundibulum]

Both table salt and NaOH (when used in such excess, i.e. like in STB teks) increase the ionic strength of the solution, forcing the hydrophobic dmt into teh non polar solvent.

In your case, NaOH was not in excess in the furst run (when you used 40g/L) but was in excess when did the second run (60g/L), ths helping the yield. Also, obviously, leaving things for some time to "brew" and break down the bark helps as you say.

 

[Ancotar]

All,

Thank you SO much for taking interest in my findings! :d

cyb,

Great tips, my friend! The reason I use so much water is because when using pre-powdered MHRB, it says in Nomans' Tek to increase the water level 1.5x to 2x what is normally called. The normal level is 15ml of distilled water per gram of MHRB, so I respectively increased that to 22.5ml per gram. I opted to do 1.5x more water, because it seems to give more of an "area" if you will for the materials to collect.

The lye amount of 60g also helps greatly facilitate my extractions so that the material is broken down more efficiently and quickly. Lessening the lye content seems to have an impact on yield. I do however plan to do more experiments with this type of extraction, so please stay tuned, for your method sounds like a method to be tried!


Infundibulum,

Your observations are exactly what I encountered. However, I do just want to point out that at one point, I read that oridinary table salt should be avoided, but to rather use crude salt for making ice creams and such. Not sure what the difference is, I am assuming the ionization?

Thank you too for taking interest in my findings! It feels good to know that my works arn't regarded as a waste of time.

3rdI,

Thank you too for your interest!

To answer your question, I definitely do plan on doing comparisons with and without salt to see how much difference it makes. I want to say I'm usually used to 0.4 - 0.6g when not using salt but I have not documented this properly yet, so this is something I will need to check very soon, probably next week at some point.


All,

Thank you again for taking interest in my work! Please stay tuned as I do plan on getting a camera of some kind to document the next phases of the extraction experiments.

 

[Ancotar]

The experiment has concluded and I am now FINALLY sharing my results. I used the same process as described earlier in this description. I will post my findings below:

First Batch

900ml Distilled Water
40g Brazilian MHRB
40g Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) (CAUTION: Extremely caustic)

Added 900ml Distilled Water to Bomex 1000ml Erlenmeyer Flask, then added the Sodium Hydroxide. Immediately added MHRB after lye. Mixed by capping flask and shaking until all dissolved. Let sit for 30 minutes.

Did 4 pulls using 15ml naphtha using Bomex 1000ml Separatory Funnel, emptying naphtha pulls into decanting jar. Separated naphtha from jar into glass pie dish using syringe and eyedropper, making sure to keep out any dark brown matter. Set small desk fan to slow speed and pointed towards pie dish to help encourage evaporation.

Total yield from process - 0.4g


Second Batch

900ml Distilled Water
40g Brazilian MHRB
60g Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) (CAUTION: Extremely caustic)
40g Ice Cream Salt (Crude Salt)

Added 900ml Distilled Water to Bomex 1000ml Erlenmeyer Flask, then added the Sodium Hydroxide and Crude salt. Immediately added MHRB after lye/salt combo. Mixed by capping flask and shaking until all dissolved. Let sit for 60 minutes in hot tap water bath using bucket.

Did 4 pulls using 15ml naphtha using Bomex 1000ml Separatory Funnel, emptying naphtha pulls into decanting jar. Separated naphtha from jar into glass pie dish using syringe and eyedropper, making sure to keep out any dark brown matter. Set small desk fan to slow speed and pointed towards pie dish to help encourage evaporation.

Total yield from process - 0.7g

Third Batch

900ml Distilled Water
40g Brazilian MHRB
60g Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) (CAUTION: Extremely caustic)
40g Ice Cream Salt (Crude Salt)

Added 900ml Distilled Water to Bomex 1000ml Erlenmeyer Flask, then added the Sodium Hydroxide and Crude salt. Immediately added MHRB after lye/salt combo. Mixed by capping flask and shaking until all dissolved. Let sit for 60 minutes in hot tap water bath using bucket.

Did 4 pulls using 15ml naphtha using Bomex 1000ml Separatory Funnel, emptying naphtha pulls into decanting jar. Separated naphtha from jar into glass pie dish using syringe and eyedropper, making sure to keep out any dark brown matter. Set small desk fan to slow speed and pointed towards pie dish to help encourage evaporation.

Total yield from process - 0.7g


Fourth Batch

900ml Distilled Water
40g Brazilian MHRB
60g Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) (CAUTION: Extremely caustic)

Added 900ml Distilled Water to Bomex 1000ml Erlenmeyer Flask, then added the Sodium Hydroxide and Crude salt. Immediately added MHRB after lye. Mixed by capping flask and shaking until all dissolved. Let sit for 60 minutes in hot tap water bath using bucket.

Did 4 pulls using 15ml naphtha using Bomex 1000ml Separatory Funnel, emptying naphtha pulls into decanting jar. Separated naphtha from jar into glass pie dish using syringe and eyedropper, making sure to keep out any dark brown matter. Set small desk fan to slow speed and pointed towards pie dish to help encourage evaporation.

Total yield from process - 0.5g

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As a conclusion to these trials, it definitely is proven that adding Crude Salt to the soup will help to grab more material. I will be running more experiments with the amount of Crude Salt added to the mixtures to see if adding more or less will help to increase yields. Thank you all for you interest in my work! Sorry for the absence of pictures, I hope to correct this soon in the future!

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Thanks for finally running a side by side comparison as I posted the idea of adding salt last year after getting some great results using it. I think my theory has been proven at this point and would like to thank those who took the time to do the experiment. I think we can get yields over 3% if we find the right salinity.

Kind Regards,
CTM

 

[Ancotar]

Thanks CTM!

It was yours and Cybs' suggestions that allowed me to try this idea out so much appreciation to you both for your contributions in this area! :thumb_up:

I ran an extraction the other day with 50g MHRB mixed into 1000ml vapor distilled water and I upped the NaOH and salt amounts to 70g NaOH and 70g Ice Cream Salt, just kind of as an experiment to see what would happen to the yield and quality.

I did this remembering what you posted about upping the salt amounts and it seeming to extract more material from the bark from your original posts.

The result I got was a remarkable 1.1g of light yellow goodies, very fluffy and crystalline. Just a hair over 2%!

Unfortunately, I haven't had time to run another extraction yet, but once I do again, I want to try this same formula to see if I get the same results again!

 

[cyb]

Nice yieldage Ancotar...:thumb_up:

Are you still using Mexican bark?
My stock was Brazilian...there seems to be some difference in content...just FYI.
edit: I re-read ...and you are using Brazilian sorry

Also the salt potentiation always seemed to push most of the product into the first two pulls, making the solvent very saturated and milky on contact with the cooler glass dish...
Did you find this also?

I haven't tried this but maybe after the first two pulls...more salt could be added (maybe even a touch more lye) to see if subsequent pulls saturated as well?

Also I have learned that tap water can be used as any contaminants shouldn't transfer to the NPS but its a personal preference of course.

any minerals in water will remain in water, not migrate to the nonpolar solvent.
if you happen to get residual water in the NPS, dry it over magnesium sulfate (epsom salts).

from this thread:

- - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Thanks for the experiments....

 

[Ancotar]

Also the salt potentiation always seemed to push most of the product into the first two pulls, making the solvent very saturated and milky on contact with the cooler glass dish...
Did you find this also?

I very much did actually and awesome observation that I neglected to point out! When the naphtha was emptied into my small decanting jar, the first two pulls were definitely more milky than the final two. The final two just seemed to thin it out.

I haven't tried this but maybe after the first two pulls...more salt could be added (maybe even a touch more lye) to see if subsequent pulls saturated as well?

I don't see why it wouldn't. I say give it a shot. When I did mine, I just did it all at once so I could make sure all lye was sufficiently dissolved. The other intention of this experiment was to see if I could maybe find an expedited way to extract the spice.

Thanks for the experiments....

Anytime! I am happy to contribute in any way I can!

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Ancotar, I just put up a new topic with the definition of ionic strength and a few suggestions for alternative ways of reaching much higher ionic strengths with less "stuff" being added to the mixture. I thank you for doing the experiments, but I know we can get the yields higher, especially with powdered root bark. The concentration is surely over 3% in the powdered material.I am an out of work chemist at the moment, but once I have the money to replenish my spice supply I will be doing these experiments right alongside you. Love and Light Brother,

CTM

 

[Ancotar]

I completely agree! I think we are on the right path here with the salt and and ionic strength of the mixtures! I read your recent post on ionic strengths and what it means, and am very intrigued!

I'll direct my questions to that thread for better indexing.

Thank you SO much for all your knowledge and contributions! It is very invaluable to the community.

 

[mikeAtHome]

Great stuff...:d

I would use a lot less water though..
for 40g bark...go for 550/600ml
Half the lye (30g) will suffice too
go for 6 pulls (6th leave overnight)..they may only produce small amounts (20mg) but it all adds up..

This is such great info to have. I'm waiting on the arrival of my bark and am starting out with your tek, cyb. I intended on using it before I even came across this thread.

One thing though... I can understand why the proportions of dry/wet are pretty much always going to work and be scalable. But when it comes to adding acids and bases, your workup in the Wiki is targeting a ph, not a ratio of grams of bark to grams of NaOH. I think that's definitely the way to go. My bark may have more/less water content than yours and so could my lye and for all I know, my bark may even result in a different ph once placed in solution due to environmental factors etc. So it makes sense to target the ph.

I was just wondering if anyone's ever examined that? I have no experience in this area (plant matter extractions) but have noticed most tek guidelines focus on ratios and not ph. I've been told more than once not to worry and I really don't worry - 'cause I've always measured the ph at any point where it's important to know what form the targeted extract is living in and I'll continue to do so until it becomes pointless.

But it is a PITA to be concerned about hitting/overshooting ph values and I really would like to be less OCD about it. I keep waiting to hear words to the effect, "Studies have been done that show etc. etc." But really, am I OCD? I know ph can have a huge effect on yield. I just don't know if it's really that variable. Do you have an opinion?

One final question... High/sufficient ph at onset and high salting seem to be associated with high yield. Is there any chance that what we're calling "yield" is not just DMT but other stuff? I don't know enough chemistry to even have an opinion and was just wondering if it was possible or if such a thing could be measured.

 

[cyb]

I was just wondering if anyone's ever examined that?

(5 year old thread)

It is the very essence of extraction ....
Teks (techniques/guides) are recipe-like write-ups designed for people who 'do not understand' or 'do not need to know' chemistry.
We write them to make it as easy as making a milkshake.

From another thread:

You move your acid phase to pH 2-4 in an aqueous solution. You then move to pH11 or above in the same solution (this is freebase) ... then you pull with minimum amount of non polar solvent.

It's that simple...

You DO NOT use ratios + or - ingredients. (only pH manipulation)

If you can obtain a 'watery environment' (non sludgy) with bark/water/salt/acid/alkaline ... that's all you need to do. (unless performing a dry tek)

 

[GreenDMT]

I'm interested what kind of naphta do you use, I try to find a good source because I can't get that percentage.Good results indeed. Thank you for sharing