Stop using DMT

[the-flying-d]

Hi @all,

I'm fairly new to the spice and I experienced already a lot in hyperspace. Nevertheless until now, no real breakthrough.
However, I've heard and noticed, that a lot of explorers suddenly stop using it.
Of cause I know, that over time every "toy" is getting boring, even with all these possibilities of the spice.
Or sometimes it might also be just too much, what is happening on the journey, that people are (understandably) scared of it.

But are there other reasons?

best regards

the-flying-d

 

[dragonrider]

Relevant thread:

Why you should NOT take DMT - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Regarding the whole "hang up the phone when you receive the message".. In line with what Benz was saying: who's to say that the message is always the same? And does that mean just because you received one message you wont ever touch the phone again? Maybe you call a different person, or maybe in the future the same person has a different message? Or maybe it's been a while and you forgot the message?

That being said, I think you have to listen to the experience. If you are getting negative experiences, at least take a break and dedicate to other things in life you might be neglecting. There's a lot more to life that deserves our full attention.

Its been a long time since I smoked DMT, I personally find ayahuasca/oral psychedelics lend themselves better to self-development, gaining insights and integrating the experiences. So if I take anything, it's probably ayahuasca, mescaline or mushrooms, once in a while. That being said, I likely will smoke DMT again in the future, though rarely, once in a blue moon. It's normal to have a honeymoon phase in the beginning and that should naturally taper off.

And if you decide that you don't want to take psychedelics ever again (or at least not for the foreseeable future), then by all means, follow your feelings! You shouldn't ever feel forced to take these substances.

Taking a break once in a while is realy helpfull.

I believe psychedelics merely have the purpose to help us function in the "real world". Just like travelling or taking a vacation. If you are on a vacation all the time, it no longer is a vacation, isn't it? And what are you contributing then, to the lives of everyone else, if you're on vacation all the time?

Sometimes the "real world" calls and needs you. You get kids and become a parent, or you get a new job with a lot of responsibilities, or there are people depending on you for other reasons. Or any combination of these things.

And most of these things are important, and very often they are great. Realy great.
The things that give life meaning.

Because, no matter how great psychedelics are, they are not that. They are not the things that give life meaning. They are only tools to help us find or experience that meaning.
But the meaning itself is in things like the relationships you have with people.

So that's how i see it. The real things, like other people, always come first. If you have the time and the energy (important) left to do psychedelics, that's nice. But that's just not always the case, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[endlessness]

xxs27, regarding that dichotomy. I think of it like walking on a slackline. Life is, imo, all about finding balance and harmony in your path. But balance isnt a fixed state of 50% to the left and 50% to the right, when you walk a slackline your weight is sometimes 60% left 40% right, then you compensate and maybe go 35% left 65% right, and so on. So while you are still walking the line (e.g. living), you arent static and you can always learn and do better to find that balance and harmony (and similarly, psychedelics can potentially give you new messages that can help with each new state).

While perfection is great to strive for, im very skeptical that we can ever reach it while alive. It's the path towards it, the endless spiral of self development with novel problems and solutions every corner, its the dynamic finding of balance, and very importantly, the appreciation and enjoyment of that path, independent of a final state or end point.

Dragonrider, very well said.

 

[xss27]

xxs27, regarding that dichotomy. I think of it like walking on a slackline. Life is, imo, all about finding balance and harmony in your path. But balance isnt a fixed state of 50% to the left and 50% to the right, when you walk a slackline your weight is sometimes 60% left 40% right, then you compensate and maybe go 35% left 65% right, and so on. So while you are still walking the line (e.g. living), you arent static and you can always learn and do better to find that balance and harmony (and similarly, psychedelics can potentially give you new messages that can help with each new state).

This is all true and I don't disagree with the notion of learning to shift your balance around, of which dabbling with psychedelics is one option, but the repeated use of them is my gripe really. If that's what a person wants to do fair enough, but at least be honest about it and leave out the flowery concepts and justifications - using language to mask intent.

I think this is where the "hang up the phone" notion comes in. Psychedelics can give a person a new perspective and shift their balance off centre a bit, and I think that's a pretty universal experience. What DMT clarified for me personally and where it contributed to me "hanging up" was that the balance was shifted enough, quickly enough, that I finally got a look at "me" during the experiences, something other psychedelics had done but in a much more subtle way and left me doubting.

While perfection is great to strive for, im very skeptical that we can ever reach it while alive. It's the path towards it, the endless spiral of self development with novel problems and solutions every corner, its the dynamic finding of balance, and very importantly, the appreciation and enjoyment of that path, independent of a final state or end point.

What if perfection is, right now? If you never left it? The relative world as you said is a never ending spiral.. perfection there is unattainable by definition, and so logically with us in the material world too.

I don't know. I just think there's a very fine line between using psychedelics to gain the insights and using them for gratification masked as seeking.

 

[FranLover]

I don't have much experience with smoked / vaped DMT, but with Ayahuasca, the teachings unfold over time, only as much at a time as you can integrate. The more years I've been drinking, the greater the Great Mystery appears to be.

Yeah I think maybe smoked dmt isn't like that, or at the least integration times are longer.

To me that approach is the one motivated by lust and not self-development. If it's not, then where are all the super healthy humans, enlightened individuals etc, within the psychonaut community?

Oh hi, I'm here did you need me for anything?

 

[Sunnyside]

To me that approach is the one motivated by lust and not self-development. If it's not, then where are all the super healthy humans, enlightened individuals etc, within the psychonaut community?

Oh hi, I'm here did you need me for anything?

Fran you a funny guy!!!
Making me laugh here!

 

[pete666]

What is the basis for this belief though? It seems like a very loose psychology that posits in advance that one requires endless sessions (much like regular psychology) because one has defects, darkness, that has to be resolved.. what is the basis for that, where is the end point?

No, self-development is not just about resolving dark sides of our shadow. It is about education, opening our mind, connecting with oneness or whatever else is needed. When we accept our higher self, when we let it to speak and we follow what is adviced, then we accept the good and the bad as well. We are able to understand the worst experiences because we are able to overcome how bad these lesons are and we are able to see and integrate the message.

If the teacher tells me to take a 5 year break, I do. He knows much better than me what I need and I found insisting on my desires is not the way to go. Not with these tools.

To me that approach is the one motivated by lust and not self-development. If it's not, then where are all the super healthy humans, enlightened individuals etc, within the psychonaut community?

I don't have an idea I know many people are using shrooms, dmt or mescaline. But how many of them are really utilizing their potential? I don't believe there are many...

 

[Jagube]

No, self-development is not just about resolving dark sides of our shadow. It is about education, opening our mind, connecting with oneness or whatever else is needed.

I believe Ayahuasca makes me more intelligent, because it helps me connect distant ideas, perhaps distant areas of the brain, and "neurons that fire together, wire together." And you can never be too intelligent
Also, it inspired me to study music and is helping me with it.

That said, when I started drinking, my experiences revolved around me -- resolving dark sides of my shadow, then awakening to something greater, beyond the materialist worldview I had adopted. Now I'm the leader of an Ayahuasca community and my work with this medicine is more about others, guiding them through their process of awakening. It's a whole new universe and I don't see an end to this increasingly more interesting walk.

To me that approach is the one motivated by lust and not self-development. If it's not, then where are all the super healthy humans, enlightened individuals etc, within the psychonaut community?

Some of the healthiest (especially psychologically) and most spiritually evolved people I know are walkers of the Ayahuasca path.

 

[twitchy]

... Some of the healthiest (especially psychologically) and most spiritually evolved people I know are walkers of the Ayahuasca path.

There's something about people that have experienced the other, it's hard to qualify and almost intangible but I agree whole-heartedly. They have a light in their eye, or a certain grin, and a perspective that can be recognized almost immediately. Call it an aura, or presence even, but it's something I've definitely noticed over the years.

 

[Jees]

Hang up the phone due a message?
Is it really only about a message, a mental/psychological prize to receive then case closed?

To me entheogens grease some "gears" and gears run dry after a while. I see people who never grease their neural gears unless with some alcohol but that is a darn de-greaser and it shows.
I concur that greasing gears overly doesn't pay off at all, if 'the message' was like that then I agree with that idea. Imho there is an optimum, like many intakes like food, vitamins, minerals,....., one needs some but overkill doesn't pay or works backwards. Stop taking them leaves you underfed after a while, I see many people entheogenic wise underfed, too bad.

The stimulation of the neurological system can hardly be compressed as a thought/insight/message. Augmenting the neural conductivity/plasticity is something no phone can fully reflect as a message imho.
Narrowing down entheogens as just message generators, misses out on the impact entheogens have hardware wise. I consider messages and visuals equally potentially transient, not the all end game.

 

[endlessness]

the repeated use of them is my gripe really. If that's what a person wants to do fair enough, but at least be honest about it and leave out the flowery concepts and justifications - using language to mask intent.

I think you have a hypothesis that may be true in some cases but you seem to generalize it to all regular users: repeated use of psychedelics is based on some kind of negative self-indulgence and not on some genuine desire for self-development and knowledge about oneself and the universe, or healing in any of the many possible levels.

There is plenty of research showing for example regular users of ayahuasca show a lot of positive cognitive/emotional/social benefits. There is plenty of evidence showing ayahuasca repeated use can have pharmacological anti-depressant effects with serotonin platelet transporters increasing. If you take it once or twice it will not have the same positive effects. Which isn't to say you should take more, but all I'm saying is that for the people that do decide to take more, it won't necessarily be a bad thing or excused by justifications that are masking something behind, etc. They may honestly be looking for self-development, benefiting medicinally/spiritually from it, and be trying to improve any flaws they may have and reassess their ego's illusions and self-indulgences along the way.

Now, if you personally aren't one of those people and found that for you, regular/extended psychedelic use was more negative than positive, then all the power to you, I wish you the best in your path. Just remember not to judge others based on your own experience, because it might very well not be representative of others or generalizable.

What if perfection is, right now? If you never left it? The relative world as you said is a never ending spiral.. perfection there is unattainable by definition, and so logically with us in the material world too.

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say I totally agree with you, and at the same time, I think perfection is never attainable... And in this seeming contradiction we live our lives in this mysterious existence, each one trying to make sense of the stimulus we receive. As long as you aren't doing something bad to others, who am I to say your path is wrong or masking something negative or whatever ? I honestly hope you have truely found the past path for you and will continually adjust as to have the best path ever for your soul

 

[FranLover]

It seemed to me from the start the Hang Up The Phone metaphore is not really for users like us, and if I understand correctly Alan Watts smoked DMT only once, so it would make sense that he say that.

I really dont get that. If I had smoked DMT just once or twice I would know nothing about it, I would have missed all the best most unforgetable trips, I would not know the depth of it, the extense and scope. It seems to me the first dose or two you realize "Oh my god, the implications of this!" And that is just the start. And that when you stop when you think youve sort of seen what its capable, what its all about; an enigma wraped in an enigma wraped in a pardox!

In any case this whole persuit, much like the persuit of art and education, is based on curiosity and other, deeper and intangible things which are hard to put a word on.

 

[Achilles]

Didn’t read The whole post but since y’all are talking bout Allen wats y’all might enjoy this. I found it pretty interesting.

 

[metta-morpheus]

I feel like the hang up the phone thing only applies to phone calls with my mother. When it come to psychedelics, particularly dmt, I think of it more as a walkie talkie to your inner god. And he’s always listening, ready to respond, and just a click of a button away.

I’m always changing, as are my questions and concerns. My higher self has insight on everything that’s happened to me and everything that has yet to happen me. It’s an open conversation that won’t end until I die and am one with source once again.

 

[xss27]

I think you have a hypothesis that may be true in some cases but you seem to generalize it to all regular users: repeated use of psychedelics is based on some kind of negative self-indulgence and not on some genuine desire for self-development and knowledge about oneself and the universe, or healing in any of the many possible levels.

It is a generalisation for sure, and I won't deny that I do think it is a valid one. That is not to say one can't have the sincere desire for healing or self-improvement at the same time, indeed I think for a lot of people that is the case. However, I think it operates in tandem with this other competing hedonistic desire for titillation and mesmerising effects, and does so in a way that the user may not be fully conscious of in terms of mental processes - does the user do psychedelics, or do psychedelics do the user? There may be external influences too, prompting the user to use substances again; entities taking energy for example.. a potential possibility, one that can't be proven though.

There is plenty of research showing for example regular users of ayahuasca show a lot of positive cognitive/emotional/social benefits. There is plenty of evidence showing ayahuasca repeated use can have pharmacological anti-depressant effects with serotonin platelet transporters increasing. If you take it once or twice it will not have the same positive effects. Which isn't to say you should take more, but all I'm saying is that for the people that do decide to take more, it won't necessarily be a bad thing or excused by justifications that are masking something behind, etc. They may honestly be looking for self-development, benefiting medicinally/spiritually from it, and be trying to improve any flaws they may have and reassess their ego's illusions and self-indulgences along the way.

Wouldn't doubt research says those things, though I'm sure you could find research that says the exact opposite too. I would argue though that people don't need to try patching up apparent 'flaws' in their ego though, that it is a zero sum game that ultimately leads nowhere because in the end the ego itself is the root cause of all our suffering. You could make yourself more adjustable to society for sure if that's what you wish, nothing wrong with that at all, but if we're talking as psychonaut explorers here I would imagine we would want to dig a little deeper, philosophically speaking - is it even necessary for one to adjust to (a sick) society?

I think what a lot of people really need is self-assurance, not self-development. Inner belief and conviction. I firmly believe the question, the seeker, the answer, it's all inside ourselves in the silent space. Psychedelics can definitely make people aware of this, absolutely. But it I think psychedelics become a distraction inevitably, like a lot of things in life do (TV, games, culture etc).. the initial inspiration and message gets lost - hang up the phone!

Now, if you personally aren't one of those people and found that for you, regular/extended psychedelic use was more negative than positive, then all the power to you, I wish you the best in your path. Just remember not to judge others based on your own experience, because it might very well not be representative of others or generalizable.

It's not from a position of judgement, not at all. So long as they are not promoting this stuff to children or those who it may cause harm too, though with DMT I think extra caution is necessary in that regard. It's more from a health and compassion standpoint, that they have what they need already and don't know it yet.

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say I totally agree with you, and at the same time, I think perfection is never attainable... And in this seeming contradiction we live our lives in this mysterious existence, each one trying to make sense of the stimulus we receive. As long as you aren't doing something bad to others, who am I to say your path is wrong or masking something negative or whatever ? I honestly hope you have truely found the past path for you and will continually adjust as to have the best path ever for your soul

Perfection in our relative world, definitely not, for everything is spontaneously emerging and forever changing. Perfection beyond the relative? I think we are that. As for paths, right or wrong doesn't figure into it except perhaps in a legal sense, but balls to that I think we should all watch out for each other though and help pass on what we've found. It's no race up the mountain in the end.

 

[Jees]

...However, I think it operates in tandem with this other competing hedonistic desire for titillation and mesmerising effects, and does so in a way that the user may not be fully conscious of in terms of mental processes - does the user do psychedelics, or do psychedelics do the user? ..

Hi xss27, if an unknown portion of the sessions indeed addresses hedonistic tendencies, even when they are not recognized as such, what is actually your problem with that? Are you suggesting people should do only things on the condition of fully grasping first every possible psychologically analysis? That's impossible and you can't live up to that preconditioning yourself when looking at all things in life, be fair and not just making an exception for spice. Imho we are all BOUND to act in partial knowledge by default about everything. I fail to see the argument.

This thread is about stopping spice, is that really your suggestion when fragments of hedonism become detected? I'm puzzled about your relationship with (partial) hedonism, it looks problematic? I consider the hedonistic quenching quite essential in human life for that matter, be that in a safe and sound context. To me it's no waste of whatever, only holy men (or those thinking they are) skip that part?

...It is a generalisation for sure, and I won't deny that I do think it is a valid one...

You stimulate us to investigate self-misleading, that is great.
Yet I invite you consecutive if you have not been misleading yourself namely calling out on hedonism as an excuse to mask something else, something of which you are in denial of. Sort of been-there-done-that as a parachuting excuse to not go deeper? I mean deeper yet not in particular to find truth X or Y, but to live the richness many people do seem to find. I cannot write exactly what it is to me, but it is, it changes my life for the better, way better. Be invited.

 

[xss27]

This thread is about stopping spice, is that really your suggestion when fragments of hedonism become detected? I'm puzzled about your relationship with (partial) hedonism, it looks problematic? I consider the hedonistic quenching quite essential in human life for that matter, be that in a safe and sound context. To me it's no waste of whatever, only holy men (or those thinking they are) skip that part?

If something comes into your awareness through psychedelic use then the work begins back when you're sober, not when you're still under the influence IMO. I don't consider hedonistic quenching, if you mean indulging that is, to be essential in human life.. I think that's a rationalisation stemming from personal desire for hedonism, though at the deepest level it's not even the person saying that - our basic programming is for health and survival, indulging in anything too much goes contrary to that programming, and only one 'voice' can be correct.

Yet I invite you consecutive if you have not been misleading yourself namely calling out on hedonism as an excuse to mask something else, something of which you are in denial of. Sort of seen-it-done-that as a parachuting excuse to not go deeper? Deeper yet not in particular to find truth X or Y, but to live the richness many people do seem to find. I cannot write exactly what it is to me, but it is, it changes my life for the better, way better. Be invited.

I'm not interested in psychedelics any more, not since I've had more powerful experiences through meditation. My DMT experiences were life changing, very beautiful, extremely profound, and I'm glad I experienced it and wouldn't have had it any other way. They paved the way for the next chapter in my life, it was necessary. It became very clear from (meditation) experience and then through literature that it is a distraction from something more important in my own journey though, that's all. I could spend years ruminating over past traumas trying to find resolution using psychedelics, psychotherapy or whatever, trying to polish the sharp edges of my personality and reactions to daily perceptions.. but to what end? What's the point? I'm not interested in being adaptable to a world I will inevitably be forced to leave, maybe sooner than one anticipates even. What is more important to me is Truth and not my self.

If DMT or psychedelics help you that's great. All I would say is just don't overdo it, you know? At the end of the day DMT is bloody powerful stuff, let's not delude ourselves on that one. Using it sparingly keeps the odds in ones favour I feel.

 

[Jees]

I think we all agree on not overdoing.

More power to you by stop using and congrats following your intuition, but meanwhile you are filling in a lot of dots for other people, a bit much imho.
I hope you find the truth you're after but I fear that's another mirage hunt, I wish you good luck with that.
That we don't agree on several points, that's ok I guess.

And where is OP, disappeared?

 

[FranLover]

OP is long gone xD

xss27 when I read you it seems like your use of psychedelics is centered around self improvement. While there is a self improvment aspect to it, in my use I dont consider it the central parr of use, hence why I dont consider it a distraction, like ever. I can see how smoking weed everyday is a distraction, but I dont see how any dmt trip can be a distraction. A distraction from what?
Is reading a book a distraction?
Yes and No, right? Completley depends on the individual and if they are practicing escapism.

To me dmt is about seeing and feeling the impossible, discovering something about us and the universe we forgot. A bed is for sleeping on. A kitchen for cooking. Everything has a purpose. I supose thats where we digress maybe, we see different purposes for the use of DMT?

Also be careful about literature and what most people say of drugs, as many make assumptions that their experiences in weed, cocaine, opium, etc, apply to all drugs. So they will say witj absolute firmness that drugs are distractions, completley unaware that DMT is not a drug. At least I dont think it is.

 

[twitchy]

As to these objections to hedonism, huh? Animals that mate for life are simply not attracted to or aroused by other potential mates. Can any human being honestly say the same? I have a very hard time believing that monogamy is inherent to our species, and in fact if you really dig into human sexuality, there's a wealth of information that suggests that we are hedonistic by default. Women's ability to achieve multiple orgasms, the shape of the male organ is thought to be designed for excavation of the 'leavings' of other males, the production of 'killer sperm', the arousal caused by witnessing the sex act... it goes on and on and I will spare you the details.
It's my opinion entirely, but I think that monogamy is a social norm that is/was imposed upon us by church and state, and in my mind, the reason being is that if I have twenty wives, and subsequently thirty or forty children, then pretty soon I'm a pretty influential person in my village and this is absolutely a political threat to the establishment. But the OP's objection to hedonistic lifestyles in the context of psychedelic usage is to me kind of ridiculous. Not to mention, most of the swingers my wife and I've known (plenty), are drinkers, frankly.

 

[xss27]

xss27 when I read you it seems like your use of psychedelics is centered around self improvement. While there is a self improvment aspect to it, in my use I dont consider it the central parr of use, hence why I dont consider it a distraction, like ever. I can see how smoking weed everyday is a distraction, but I dont see how any dmt trip can be a distraction. A distraction from what? Is reading a book a distraction? Yes and No, right? Completley depends on the individual and if they are practicing escapism.

Self-discovery (nothing needs improving as such), but yeah, that's what I consider the main impetus for using psychedelics should be in an individual and not for recreation or escapism. Again not that there's anything wrong with those pursuits as such, though you could argue that potentially you're putting family and friends at risk of your having to take care of a broken person, I just think from a health stand point that continual or excessive use only increases the statistical chances of something going awry in an individual that's all. It just doesn't seem wise in the total scheme of things.

To me dmt is about seeing and feeling the impossible, discovering something about us and the universe we forgot. A bed is for sleeping on. A kitchen for cooking. Everything has a purpose. I supose thats where we digress maybe, we see different purposes for the use of DMT?

No I totally get that. That very deep nostalgic feeling I get when I remember my DMT experiences of the impossible are something I treasure, they motivate me to keep plugging on in the face of despair. Definitely worth having. But would those nostalgic memories lose their potency and majesty if you kept repeating the experience? Don't you see a potential burn-out scenario where you unravel too much of the mystery so to speak? If you kept on trekking up to the top of a great mountain to get that peak experience (ah-ha) eventually the experience uses itself up.. I mean it's still great, but having that one potent memory as opposed to several dozen..?

Also be careful about literature and what most people say of drugs, as many make assumptions that their experiences in weed, cocaine, opium, etc, apply to all drugs. So they will say with absolute firmness that drugs are distractions, completely unaware that DMT is not a drug. At least I dont think it is.

It was spiritual literature rather than psychedelic related literature I was referring to, which in itself does occasionally directly mention substance use but is more about actual perceptions themselves being unreal, being distractions, all just pictures on the screen. It says the same thing about great meditative experiences, cosmic consciousness for example, and not getting hung up on the beauty of those experiences because ultimately it's just more of the same.

@twitchy: The sex topic is a thing in itself. I actually agree with the thrust of your argument but not defining that behaviour as hedonistic though.. not unless we're putting the blame on nature