sublingual DMT?

[starway7]

I am not a new member...I joined this forum back in 2012 but i lost my pass word and had to change my handle some from ...starway6...to starway7...

Ive been away a while studying .. lucid dreaming ..and astral travel...

Has there been any success with sublingual DMT yet?

Im a little behind here on nexus and its been almost two years i havent touched DMT...

Im feeling the desire to return to some DMT use..but im hopeing for a more gental way to take it ocasionally...

I have an idea of mixing in dmt suspended in alcohol...into liquid gelatin and alowing it to cool and harden in pill moulds....

The longer it sits the harder the gelatin should become...

Ive already mixed salvia tincture into heated liquid gelatin ..let it cool...in a pill mould..tryed it sublingually and got reasonable results...i defenantly felt the salvia!

One benifit of putting the actives into a slowly desolving tablet is...[[ unlike dropping liquid tincture under your toun]]]..... the tablet keeps it under your toung in one spot...nothing runs down the throat... and desolves at a regular pace...

I know that sublingual DMT would probibly need an MAIO with it to work...

Maybe the maoi first then the sublingual spice tablet?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Hi there starway, nice to see you here!

That's a interesting idea. One thing that springs to mind, though, is the difference between salvinorin A and DMT. Salvinorin A is lipophilic and does not form salts under normal (or, most likely, any) conditions. This alone lends it quite well to sublingual absorption. DMT, however, is largely protonated at physiological pH. This ionic form is much less readily absorbed through the mucous membranes of the mouth. We only have to take a look at coca chewing to see that some sort of base would have to be involved, in order to produce freebase which will absorb through the lining of the mouth.

We're looking at a formulation question. DMT sublingual lozenges would have to contain some moderately caustic substance in order to be effective - and you're likely right about the MAOI as well. Without MAOI one would have to absorb a sufficient dose of DMT in a short enough time, sublingually, in order for it to have a central effect (which is, of course, what is achieved through vaping.) I don't think sublingual absorption would achieve this.

So it would be necessary to use freebase DMT, or a freebasing agent such as lime, sodium carbonate or similar, to maintain a high enough pH for effective sublingual absorption. But, at least the alkaline properties of saliva give us a small helping hand.

There are hints (IIRC) that Virola resin may have been used in this way in the Amazon basin - balls of plant material that are put into the mouth, possibly containing lime and harmala alkaloid - but it was not clear in the reports whether the material was kept in the mouth or swallowed. From what I gather, the technique seems to have died out.

 

[HowdyItsMe]

^ Very interesting stuff, I never had considered coca needing an alkaline for the bodies ph to absorb it - or any substance following that rule for example. So the dmt would just get caught like oil rather than breaking down in the acids, right?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

^ Very interesting stuff, I never had considered coca needing an alkaline for the bodies ph to absorb it - or any substance following that rule for example. So the dmt would just get caught like oil rather than breaking down in the acids, right?

I have no idea what you mean by "the dmt would just get caught like oil rather than breaking down in the acids". Do you think you could re-articulate this thought more clearly? "Caught" by what? How would the DMT be breaking down? And in what acids? Why do you think one or another type of acid is used during some DMT extraction procedures?

Words you might like to research:
lipophilicity
ionic
protonation
monoamine oxidase

 

[starway7]

Hi there starway, nice to see you here!

That's a interesting idea. One thing that springs to mind, though, is the difference between salvinorin A and DMT. Salvinorin A is lipophilic and does not form salts under normal (or, most likely, any) conditions. This alone lends it quite well to sublingual absorption. DMT, however, is largely protonated at physiological pH. This ionic form is much readily absorbed through the mucous membranes of the mouth. We only have to take a look at coca chewing to see that some sort of base would have to be involved, in order to produce freebase which will absorb through the lining of the mouth.

We're looking at a formulation question. DMT sublingual lozenges would have to contain some moderately caustic substance in order to be effective - and you're likely right about the MAOI as well. Without MAOI one would have to absorb a sufficient dose of DMT in a short enough time, sublingually, in order for it to have a central effect (which is, of course, what is achieved through vaping.) I don't think sublingual absorption would achieve this.

So it would be necessary to use freebase DMT, or a freebasing agent such as lime, sodium carbonate or similar, to maintain a high enough pH for effective sublingual absorption. But, at least the alkaline properties of saliva give us a small helping hand.

There are hints (IIRC) that Virola resin may have been used in this way in the Amazon basin - balls of plant material that are put into the mouth, possibly containing lime and harmala alkaloid - but it was not clear in the reports whether the material was kept in the mouth or swallowed. From what I gather, the technique seems to have died out.

Hi downwardsfromzero i remember you hope you are doing ok...

Yes sublingual absorbtion of dmt intrests me because it should be more of a gentle experiance ..posibly if some rue tea was injested first...

But really i havent tryed it yet but im working on an extraction now and may try it in a few days...

If it doesnt work ..it may be because of the molecules molecular weight or size preventing it from passing through the mucus under toung...

But really it would seem sublingual has a better chance than the transdermal way....

Not really wanting to be shot out of a dmt cannon..but would be nice to find more forgiving gentle entrance into DMT space...

Just an idea ...will try it soon...

 

[HowdyItsMe]

^ Very interesting stuff, I never had considered coca needing an alkaline for the bodies ph to absorb it - or any substance following that rule for example. So the dmt would just get caught like oil rather than breaking down in the acids, right?

I have no idea what you mean by "the dmt would just get caught like oil rather than breaking down in the acids". Do you think you could re-articulate this thought more clearly? "Caught" by what? How would the DMT be breaking down? And in what acids? Why do you think one or another type of acid is used during some DMT extraction procedures?

Words you might like to research:
lipophilicity
ionic
protonation
monoamine oxidase

I reckon that I didn't attribute that you'd need to break down the plant into a different molecular structure to absorb sublingual. So it would get caught in fats and not activate - per say. Please excuse my ignorance

Thank you for the words to research!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I reckon that I didn't attribute that you'd need to break down the plant into a different molecular structure to absorb sublingual. So it would get caught in fats and not activate - per say. Please excuse my ignorance

Thank you for the words to research!

Thanks for clarifying a bit!

Yeah, it's a protonation/deprotonation thing - not really a change of molecular structure, rather about the second tiniest change you can make to a molecule. Protonated DMT (pH 9 and below, roughly speaking) won't pass through the mucous membrane so easily (goes my working hypothesis) because of reasons related to the ionic charge that the proton adds to the molecule. Raise the pH higher (more alkaline) and the extra protons with their respective positive charge are pretty much removed from all the DMT molecules so that they are present in the free base form. This more fatty, non-ionic form is attracted to fatty substances such as the cell membranes in the lining of the mouth and their journey towards your 5HT receptors may continue in earnest. MAO inhibitors help to prevent the DMT from become destroyed before it reaches the crucial parts of the brain.

That's a rough outline of the idea, at least.


If you're unfamiliar with the chemistry terms, this stickied thread should help a bit: DMT Extraction Overview.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Hi there starway, nice to see you here!

That's a interesting idea. One thing that springs to mind, though, is the difference between salvinorin A and DMT. Salvinorin A is lipophilic and does not form salts under normal (or, most likely, any) conditions. This alone lends it quite well to sublingual absorption. DMT, however, is largely protonated at physiological pH. This ionic form is much less readily absorbed through the mucous membranes of the mouth. We only have to take a look at coca chewing to see that some sort of base would have to be involved, in order to produce freebase which will absorb through the lining of the mouth.

We're looking at a formulation question. DMT sublingual lozenges would have to contain some moderately caustic substance in order to be effective - and you're likely right about the MAOI as well. Without MAOI one would have to absorb a sufficient dose of DMT in a short enough time, sublingually, in order for it to have a central effect (which is, of course, what is achieved through vaping.) I don't think sublingual absorption would achieve this.

So it would be necessary to use freebase DMT, or a freebasing agent such as lime, sodium carbonate or similar, to maintain a high enough pH for effective sublingual absorption. But, at least the alkaline properties of saliva give us a small helping hand.

There are hints (IIRC) that Virola resin may have been used in this way in the Amazon basin - balls of plant material that are put into the mouth, possibly containing lime and harmala alkaloid - but it was not clear in the reports whether the material was kept in the mouth or swallowed. From what I gather, the technique seems to have died out.

Hi downwardsfromzero i remember you hope you are doing ok...

Yes sublingual absorbtion of dmt intrests me because it should be more of a gentle experiance ..posibly if some rue tea was injested first...

But really i havent tryed it yet but im working on an extraction now and may try it in a few days...

If it doesnt work ..it may be because of the molecules molecular weight or size preventing it from passing through the mucus under toung...

But really it would seem sublingual has a better chance than the transdermal way....

Not really wanting to be shot out of a dmt cannon..but would be nice to find more forgiving gentle entrance into DMT space...

Just an idea ...will try it soon...

NB - I've edited my post you've quoted because I'd missed out a crucial word - "less", now also added in red, above.

Based on very limited practical experience, I'd say DMT freebase will get absorbed sublingually. It's a small enough lipophilic molecule. I made an experimental attempt once where an amount of DMT FB was melted and dispersed into a small amount of glycerine which was then placed and held under the tongue. The very beginnings of an effect were noticeable - a harmala addition undoubtedly would have helped. The glycerine method was too fiddly to follow up with further attempts.

I think your idea is definitely worth exploring. Looking forward to hearing of your results.

 

[HowdyItsMe]

I reckon that I didn't attribute that you'd need to break down the plant into a different molecular structure to absorb sublingual. So it would get caught in fats and not activate - per say. Please excuse my ignorance

Thank you for the words to research!

Thanks for clarifying a bit!

Yeah, it's a protonation/deprotonation thing - not really a change of molecular structure, rather about the second tiniest change you can make to a molecule. Protonated DMT (pH 9 and below, roughly speaking) won't pass through the mucous membrane so easily (goes my working hypothesis) because of reasons related to the ionic charge that the proton adds to the molecule. Raise the pH higher (more alkaline) and the extra protons with their respective positive charge are pretty much removed from all the DMT molecules so that they are present in the free base form. This more fatty, non-ionic form is attracted to fatty substances such as the cell membranes in the lining of the mouth and their journey towards your 5HT receptors may continue in earnest. MAO inhibitors help to prevent the DMT from become destroyed before it reaches the crucial parts of the brain.

That's a rough outline of the idea, at least.


If you're unfamiliar with the chemistry terms, this stickied thread should help a bit: DMT Extraction Overview.

Thank you! It's a language I'm trying to learn Appreciate the patience!

It's pretty cool that we have alkaloids just in our saliva, this is like a whole level of knowledge, lol.

TY!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's pretty cool that we have alkaloids just in our saliva, this is like a whole level of knowledge, lol.

I'm beginning to suspect you of being habitually intoxicated and/or trolling... While, theoretically, vanishingly small amounts of endogenous DMT might surface in the saliva, the DMT talked about ↑above↑ will have come from the quidded plant material. Saliva is alkaline, but that does not mean that it contains alkaloids without us having put them there ourselves.