Sublingual Harmala + sublingual DMT?

[Deleted member 73149]

Hi everybody,

I was wondering whether this is a viable ROA or not. I read a lot about oral pharma and sublingual harmalas to potentiate vaping sessions, but I'm confused about going all sublingual.
Is it a strong experience? More akin to oral or vaping?

I have some fine DMT benzoate and extracting harmalas from rue right now, I'm trained in the pharmaceutical science and currently formulating some orodispersible tablets with taste masking and local blood flow enhancers, but I need guidance on feasibility and range of dosage.

Istintively I was thinking 50-75 mg mixed harmalas (weight expressed as freebase but I'll go with HCl+taste masking) and a separate tablet with 40-60 mg DMT (expressed as freebase). Ideally these tablets could be broken in half for eventual redosing.

What's your opinion? My goal is a 2 hours medium intensity trip.

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 73149]

As always I'm late to the party! I found a paper, discussed here on the nexus too, that deals with sublingual ayahuasca in a novel formulation that looks like an inorganic version of the cyclodextrin approach.

Re: dosage, they administered various combinations of harmine and DMT in three subsequent increments, i.e. 40mg harmine + 30mg DMT x 3, every 20 minutes. They admit that the first dose of DMT is probably lost to the fact that harmine has not kicked in yet, so it can probably be subtracted if the two are administered separately.
120 mg of harmine could translate to 80-100 mg of mixed harmalas (in a supposed natural 2:1 ratio harmine:harmaline) and 90 mg DMT with the first 30 mg "wasted" could translate to 60 mg if taken 20-30 minutes after the harmalas.

I think I'm going to make a 60 mg harmala tablet and a 50 mg DMT+30 mg harmala one. Space them the conventional 20-30 minutes apart and keep halves of both for eventual redosing. Lets say one redoses a couple of times, it will still be at 120 mg harmalas and 100 mg DMT total. The duration/intensity could probably be tailored by priming with a half tablet of harmala and then half of DMT+harmala tablet for gentler/shorter trips. The easily customizable range would then be 45-120 mg for harmalas and 25-100 mg for DMT (1/2+1/2 ÷ 1+1+1).

Please let me know what you think!

 

[CataractSurgeon]

Dmt is not wasted without harmala unless you swallow it - it seems to me Dmt hits same peak with or without harmala but lasts much longer with them- everyone will probably have a different experience- it’s soooo hard to hold stuff under the tongue in my experience- so if what’s happening is actually swallowing then yes harmala oral first - I have proven to myself that boof harmala and Intramuscular does NOT help oral DMT - Harmalas work great on brain but useless on gut unless swallowed - so if succeed in sublingual harmala it will not help swallowed DMT - if you get and harmala crystal in your mouth it really kills tissue and hurts bad for days - make sure its 100% dissolved for sure and be prepared to burn your mouth possibly -

 

[Varallo]

Hi everybody,

I was wondering whether this is a viable ROA or not. I read a lot about oral pharma and sublingual harmalas to potentiate vaping sessions, but I'm confused about going all sublingual.
Is it a strong experience? More akin to oral or vaping?

I have some fine DMT benzoate and extracting harmalas from rue right now, I'm trained in the pharmaceutical science and currently formulating some orodispersible tablets with taste masking and local blood flow enhancers, but I need guidance on feasibility and range of dosage.

Istintively I was thinking 50-75 mg mixed harmalas (weight expressed as freebase but I'll go with HCl+taste masking) and a separate tablet with 40-60 mg DMT (expressed as freebase). Ideally these tablets could be broken in half for eventual redosing.

What's your opinion? My goal is a 2 hours medium intensity trip.

Cheers

Sublingual dosing of DMT in combination with harmalas does work, but only to a certain extent (if you do an search for it you should find multiple threads on it). I think especially if you already have some experience and are quite sensitive it can definitely be an option to work sublingually.

For me personally, I can have a breakthrough on just 15 mg if I vape it properly. So I’m in a group of people who are quite sensitive and need only a low dose for a strong effect. What works for me is to brush my gums with an toothbrush and then take small scoops (1-3) of about 20 mg of harmala HCl, hold that under my tongue, and once I really feel the effects, I add small scoops of DMT fumarate with the same spoon. If I keep that in my mouth or under my tongue for 10–20 minutes (you can’t really hold it under your tongue the whole time), I can reach a light aya trip with some closed-eye visuals.

It relatively smooth and short but also pretty mild, and it feels like you kind of have to look for the experience. It does work though.

 

[Transform]

if you get and harmala crystal in your mouth it really kills tissue and hurts bad for days - make sure its 100% dissolved for sure and be prepared to burn your mouth possibly

What form of harmala did you use when this happened? I never noticed it with harmala citrate (precipitated from butyl acetate), but maybe that's more biocompatible.

 

[Deleted member 73149]

Sublingual dosing of DMT in combination with harmalas does work, but only to a certain extent (if you do an search for it you should find multiple threads on it). I think especially if you already have some experience and are quite sensitive it can definitely be an option to work sublingually.

For me personally, I can have a breakthrough on just 15 mg if I vape it properly. So I’m in a group of people who are quite sensitive and need only a low dose for a strong effect. What works for me is to brush my gums with an toothbrush and then take small scoops (1-3) of about 20 mg of harmala HCl, hold that under my tongue, and once I really feel the effects, I add small scoops of DMT fumarate with the same spoon. If I keep that in my mouth or under my tongue for 10–20 minutes (you can’t really hold it under your tongue the whole time), I can reach a light aya trip with some closed-eye visuals.

It relatively smooth and short but also pretty mild, and it feels like you kind of have to look for the experience. It does work though.

Many thanks for your reply!
I read your posts about vaporhuasca and I'm obviously inspired by them.
I was leaning toward all sublingual because I have trouble vaping, after years of smoking tobacco I quit and now my lungs are very sensitive. I tried intranasal administration via spray and it works but jeez it's painful (tried acetate at 20% w/v and benzoate at 5-6% w/v, both painful). I tried to vape the acetate and it's worse than freebase.
Yesterday though I converted 200 mg of benzoate to freebase and then to citrate (again, inspired by your words "so smooth") and bingo! It really is smooth in a inexpensive geekvape wenax Q. I went with 0.4 ohm and 25watts, no breakthrough because I went for a lower concentration as you did, but it really is smooth and manageable.

After all I think I'm going to follow your MO, harmalas followed by small DMT+small harmalas sublingual and the e-cig within reach to tune in at the desired intensity.

If sublingual only is going to give me a gentle/smooth baseline it's more than OK, some times one doesn't necessarily need more.

Cheers

 

[CataractSurgeon]

What form of harmala did you use when this happened? I never noticed it with harmala citrate (precipitated from butyl acetate), but maybe that's more biocompatible.

Hcl - terrible burn

 

[Varallo]

Hcl - terrible burn

Having taken Harmala HCL as crystal sublingual for decades now I have never experienced any issues, if you feel any burn something else is wrong.

 

[CataractSurgeon]

I’m

Having taken Harmala HCL as crystal sublingual for decades now I have never experienced any issues, if you feel any burn something else is wrong.

maybe it was my Harmine : harmiline stuff not my Harmine hcl that burned - I’ll check on that - I know I burned the hell out of my mouth and lips but you are right it was my mixed stuff not the Harmine hcl now that i remember-

 

[Varallo]

I’m

maybe it was my Harmine : harmiline stuff not my Harmine hcl that burned - I’ll check on that - I know I burned the hell out of my mouth and lips but you are right it was my mixed stuff not the Harmine hcl now that i remember-

Both harmine and harmaline or a mix thereof in their HCl form do not cause an burning sensation. Not sure what is wrong with your stuff but if I was you I wouldn’t use it again before either cleaning it up or having it tested.

 

[CataractSurgeon]

Weird it works great when dissolved

AI also states pure crystals burn badly - not sure why we have different experiences- more power to you ! All good

 

[Ruffles]

I highly suggest the sublingual combo of 120 : 90 mgs (freebase equivalent) of the h : d ratio according to a recent sublingual paper (which used D succinate). That is a very definitive 1+ hr trip with its own quirks that is somewhat equivalent to a 25 mg intramuscular injection (fumarate equivalent). 90 : 70 h : d also hits pretty good. A 30 min offset of harmala first is recommended.

120 mg of freebase harmala (good purification or light tan to white stuff) has no taste and does nothing to mucosa, it will convert eventually and taste a little bit bad, that's it. 90 mg of Deem fumarate will be very unpleasant, a bitter taste plus it burns when that much touches mucosa and it does bother within the first 15 mins trip, though it's doable. Also, benzoate and fumarates make you salivate, so you will swallow but at the 120 : 90 ratio it will hit even if you do. So taking the deem stepwise is recommended. Adding some coconut oil or something of the sort will reduce the burn, but it may also prevent it from absorbing.

Start low at 30-40 mg H and 20-30 mg D for 2 hr cycles and climb up. Varallo's recommendation of a mouth cleanup is essential (I second everything he said). Also remember to rub it under the tongue so it spreads and sticks to mucosa before you salivate.

 

[Deleted member 73149]

I highly suggest the sublingual combo of 120 : 90 mgs (freebase equivalent) of the h : d ratio according to a recent sublingual paper (which used D succinate). That is a very definitive 1+ hr trip with its own quirks that is somewhat equivalent to a 25 mg intramuscular injection (fumarate equivalent). 90 : 70 h : d also hits pretty good. A 30 min offset of harmala first is recommended.


Start low at 30-40 mg H and 20-30 mg D for 2 hr cycles and climb up. Varallo's recommendation of a mouth cleanup is essential (I second everything he said). Also remember to rub it under the tongue so it spreads and sticks to mucosa before you salivate.

Hey thanks! I read the paper, very interesting, they make it look like it lasts 5-6 hours though, with the peak around 3 hours, you say it's a 1+, could it be related to their formulation?

And what do you mean with 2 hours cycles and climb up, break the final dose in 3-4 and take 1 every 30 minutes?

 

[Ruffles]

It has a long tail (the following day will feel stranger than usual) but the comeup and peak altogether last the first 0100-0130. I don't think the paper indicates 3 h trips, from the subjective responses and blood level graphs it's more like a 3-4 h of the flow through the body, but the trip itself is in the graph peaks. You mention their formulation, my opinion is that it's basically the succinate forms with an encapsulation tech of sorts that has no proof whatsoever of increasing sublingual absorption. It's not a patch that isolates actives to the mucosa. What they measured is likely just H and D succinate effects in a semi sublingual route.

A cycle would be a full trip in itself, come up peak and comedown, but it's so short lived that you can do more than one trial in a day. To avoid excessive stacking, try to redose the combo every 2 h. That's a dmt trip quirk, it's difficult to get a stable plateau by redosing (unless you are an anesthesiologist with proper equipment), so at least for me it ends up being several cycles of light to moderate effects in a day.

The climbing up is meant as to not go straight to the 120 : 90 dose, but climb up in 40 : 20 steps, which I would indicate as a minimum dose to get light effects sublingual-oral.

 

[Deleted member 73149]

It has a long tail (the following day will feel stranger than usual) but the comeup and peak altogether last the first 0100-0130. I don't think the paper indicates 3 h trips, from the subjective responses and blood level graphs it's more like a 3-4 h of the flow through the body, but the trip itself is in the graph peaks.

A cycle would be a full trip in itself, come up peak and comedown, but it's so short lived that you can do more than one trial in a day. To avoid excessive stacking, try to redose the combo every 2 h. That's a dmt trip quirk, it's difficult to get a stable plateau by redosing (unless you are an anesthesiologist with proper equipment), so at least for me it ends up being several cycles of light to moderate effects in a day.

The climbing up is meant as to not go straight to the 120 : 90 dose, but climb up in 40 : 20 steps, which I would indicate as a minimum dose to get light effects sublingual-oral.

Thanks a lot, very helpful!
I'll prepare 60:40 H : D tablets and use half at a time. I'll report back as soon as I have meaningful news.

Cheers

 

[Ruffles]

You got the freebases or salts? Be mindful of the "freebase equivalent" thing. 20 mg of D fumarate is close to 10 mg freebase, so it won't move you much, unless you vape or inject.

 

[Deleted member 73149]

You got the freebases or salts? Be mindful of the "freebase equivalent" thing. 20 mg of D fumarate is close to 10 mg freebase, so it won't move you much, unless you vape or inject.

Yeah I was referring to freebase equivalents. I have DMT benzoate for this project and citrate for eventual vaporhuasca. I'm extracting harmalas as HCl through sequantial manske steps. Right now I'm stuck because I'm out of town, but should be done next weekend.

Therefore, to clarify, the tablets are going to contain 70 mg mixed harmalas HCl and 67 mg DMT benzoate. I'll probably make harmala-only and DMT-only tablets as well, for fine-tuning intensity/duration.

Technically I could make true pharmaceutical tablets with proper disintegrants etc, but I like the idea of translating my formulation knowledge to a kitchen-approach, so probably I'll end up with lozenges instead of factory made tablets.

I want to incorporate menthol/other ethereal oils (cloves?) for taste masking, steviosides for edulcoration, L-arginine for vasodilation and improved absorption, starch and/or gelatin for readily available binding/agglomerant compounds, glycerol (in small proportion) as humectant and an hydrophobic inorganic salt like tricalcium phosphate as a disintegrant.
The rationale being the lozenge needs to keep its integrity while being permeable to saliva. I'll let you know and provide detailed description if successful!

 

[Ruffles]

The farthest I went was to make carboxymethylcellulose and chitin films as sublingual patches that I mixed in detergent and DMSO and coconut oil and that works OK, but didn't really seem to enhance anything over the simple wash, spit and rub it in method. Methinks that even if you swallow your 70 : 67 or the full 120 : 90 equivalents it will hit. But please, do work out that candyhuasca recipe.

 

[Transform]

candyhuasca

We've got the cool name - candyhuasca™, this has to happen!

I just love it

 

[Deleted member 73149]

We've got the cool name - candyhuasca™, this has to happen!

I just love it

Yes indeed the name is too cool, now I'm even more hyped to do it!