Taking ayahuasca as an opioid addict (kratom)?

[suit13]

Hello guys,

what about taking Ayahuasca as a kratom addict (for self-therapeutic purposes) ? The problem is that before taking ayahuasca you have to take a sufficient amount of kratom to avoid withdrawal symptoms for the next 8 hours.

Does anyone here know more about what to consider? Is it even possible? Are there any experiences?

I thank you a lot for each answer and thought!

 

[King Tryptamine]

Hey there! I've been addicted to these nasty ass MF's and can relate to your situation, for me it was tramadol and codeine. What helped me during the initial withdrawal phase was Cannabis and Coca, both of which I no longer consume as they can also cause dependency and addiction albeit nowhere near to the same extent as opiates!

The cannabis helped coping with the restlessness, anxiety and insomnia. It also helped consuming a decent amount of food and water vital for recovery.

The coca helped bust right past the depressive and fatigue related symptoms and also general malaise . P.S. avoid the stimulant coffee/caffeine as it WILL make diarrhea worse during the acute withdrawal stage.

Post acute withdrawal phase I made sure to stay off ALL drugs (apart from serotinergic psychedelics) and used more healthy techniques such as daily exercise and healthy eating which have been found to up-regulate the D2 receptors (downregulated in opiate and stimulant dependent subjects) Reference - Exercise as a Potential Treatment for Drug Abuse: Evidence from Preclinical Studies It's just one of countless studies done on the effect of regular excercise on addiction.

Regarding ayahuasca, can't say I've used any form of DMT prior to getting off opioids so I can't speak for that. However I will say that consuming DMT or any other psychedelic after withdrawal is an extremely rewarding and empowering experience that aids in staying off this garbage.

Hope this helps you in your next step to recovery:thumb_up:

 

[TalkingGarden]

the maoi aspect generally shouldn't be mixed with opiates from what I read some opiates are worse than others. Not sure how far up the scale kratom is but I am sure someone else will chime in soon....research that before you jump

 

[King Tryptamine]

No interaction with mitragynine + harmala alkaloids or DMT (monoamine wise) though this is not the case with other opiates like tramadol (absolute no no) Feel free to combine it with kratom if you must.

 

[null24]

I've never experienced any negative interaction with MAOIs and methadone...

 

[TalkingGarden]

Ok cool I know some can be bad that's why I said check into it....

See currently I am on methadone and that is the reason I haven't added the maoi yet. 2 people told me its iffy...one had bad experience himself and said he THOUGHT that was it but didn't try it again and he has yet to come off methadone so he isn't sure. Don't matter anyway its been a LONG way tapering off the methadone but I am FINALLY about a month away. So ill just wait I think it will be worth the wait anyway!

 

[suit13]

Thank you a real bunch!!

So there should be no big problem to take first kratom as usual as daily dose to have no withdrawl-symptoms and then 1 hour later ayahuasca?

I only found one site on the internet whre someone wrote that both (kratom and ayahusca) use the same receptor. And because of that they block eachother and so you dont have any effect. But I wonder if that information is correct or not? Here is that proclamation:

What Will Happen If I Use Ayahuasca And Kratom?

Unfortunately, not much. Not only are you putting yourself at risk to develop toxic levels of serotonin in your body to the point of death, ayahuasca and kratom work on the same receptors, but in different ways.

Kratom actually blocks signals from these receptors the same time ayahuasca is trying to act on them. What does this mean? Let me spell it out for you: you won’t feel a thing. (from Mixing Ayahuasca And Kratom: What You Ought To Know This Combination

So is that really true? What information do you have about this issue?

 

[King Tryptamine]

I believe the person who wrote that hadn't a bloody clue what she was talking about. Quoting " A reasonable theory is that both ayahuasca and kratom work on the same 5-HT2A receptor, but kratom acts as an agonist" therefore "If this neurochemical interaction does indeed take place, then it is quite possible that using kratom during an ayahuasca experience may inhibit the potential of feeling the full effects" :!: ...


There's a couple things wrong with this I'll sum up in three bullet points:

- If the mitragynine found in kratom were an agonist at the 5-HT2A receptor site (its not) it would probably (not always, as in the case for 5-HT) elicit a similar response to other agonists or partial agonists like; DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, mescaline on its own right and also potentiate the experience rather than "inhibit the potential of feeling the full effects"

- It would only "inhibit the potential of feeling the full effects" if it were an antagonist (its not) at the 5-HT2A site and even than there's alot! more to ayahuasca than just 5-HT2A receptor agonism, she missed out the other 15+ pharmacological actions of DMT and harmalas which I'm not going to go into right now cause I'm only debunking the points made in this persons stupid article. Seriously it seems this person just pulled a bunch of crap out her backside with no reference at all!

- Than the person goes on to say " Not only are you putting yourself at risk to develop toxic levels of serotonin in your body to the point of death" keeping in mind she said it inhibits the ayahuasca response and then "you won’t feel a thing" She literally argues against her own points on this so I'm not even gonna bother.


The only way I see it "partially" inhibiting the response to ayahuasca is the overall inhibitory effect it has in the CNS as a result of mu-opioid agonism not "5-HT2A" receptor "agonism" as the person suggests. Hope this helps:thumb_up:

 

[hug46]

Everywhere that i have looked has advised to avoid MAOIs and kratom.

Mitragyna speciosa: Clinical, Toxicological Aspects and Analysis in Biological and Non-Biological Samples

The abuse of psychotropic substances is a well-known phenomenon, and many of them are usually associated with ancestral traditions and home remedies. This is the case of Mitragyna speciosa (kratom), a tropical tree used to improve work performance and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kratom Benefits, Experience, Dosage & Side Effects

Our Essential Guide to Kratom covers everything you need to know about this unique pain-killing plant. Learn more about the kratom experience here.

thethirdwave.co

Kratom Drug Interaction Concerns: Be Aware Of These Combinations

addameer.info

ayahausca + kratom - safe or dangerous combo? - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

If it was me, i would steer clear. And i do not think that people saying that they have taken opiates or opiate like substances with MAOIs without any negative reactions should be a recommendation to do it.

However I will say that consuming DMT or any other psychedelic after withdrawal is an extremely rewarding and empowering experience that aids in staying off this garbage.

I think that a caveat should be put with that statement, that it is your own personal experience. There is probably just as much chance that someone could be put on a mind bending downer by tripping after withdrawal and start using opiates again.

 

[King Tryptamine]

Fair point, I stand corrected as all these links state it interacts badly against pretty much every drug known to man, including the more mild ones like caffeine. However it seems that more emphasis on potentially adverse interactions involve CNS depressants such as alcohol, benzodiazapines and other opiates regarding respiratory depression. The ones made on MAOI's are advised against like the others but haven't been elaborated on nearly to the same extent as CNS depressants or caffeine for that matter. I will now discourage it's use though just to be on the safe side, apologies for earlier opinions.

The comment I made on the rewarding aspect of psychedelics post-withdrawal was made on the consensus that people generally feel better, since they're not withdrawing anymore, not just personal experience. Again sorry for my earlier remarks suit13 and I do hope you climb out you're kratom dependance, one way or another. Best of luck.

P.S. I still firmly recommend the diet and exercise routine though, especially cardio, gotta up those D2 receptors :thumb_up:

 

[hug46]

The comment I made on the rewarding aspect of psychedelics post-withdrawal was made on the consensus that people generally feel better, since they're not withdrawing anymore, not just personal experience.

I personally think that DMT, for me at least, has been a beneficial force in recovery from addiction (6 years clean so far). And at the time i kind of wanted to proclaim it as some kind of silver bullet for some kinds of mental illnesses. The thing is that there are so many variables with these kinds of drugs. How they are taken, what kind of person is taking them and subsequently how they might deal with difficult experiences and so on....

P.S. I still firmly recommend the diet and exercise routine though, especially cardio, gotta up those D2 receptors

I agree with this.

 

[twitchy]

Taper down and then don't take any kratom the day before or the day of would be my advice. I'm a chronic pain patient and have been using kratom almost daily for about two years as an alternative to the traditional opiates. I've read that there is some interaction with MAOI and mitragynine, while it obviously doesn't recruit/potentiate the B-Arestin(?) response to suppress respiratory function apparently it can cause a pretty nasty headache and other symptoms with MAOI. There's not a hell of a lot of research to go on unfortunately but IMO, next day kratom is ok, during or day of the aya is not. Just my two cents, but I've some experience as well. I have taken kratom about six to eight hours after come down and was fine, but personally I'd avoid having it in your system with the MAOI.

 

[Cactus Man]

As a daily kratom user I too have wondered how it would it mix with ayahuasca. Somehow I don't think they would mix very well together. Cactus and kratom has proven to be a good combo though. 8)